Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 11:41:09 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Poetic Devices -- Part 1
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Message 1 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/3/2002 1:33 AM
I guess as this is a study of poetry we should enlighten one another on the types of poetic devices used to convey the message in the AoTB. I also find that giving you a list of poetic devices and what they mean only gives you a crutch so you can look at what I've written and then point out the things that match without knowing what you are talking about. My method is to ask questions pertaining to the poetry and have you look it up and reply in hopes of us both learning what we do instead of matching my definitions to the AoTB. If this seems too much like school for you don't do it but sometimes research is fun besides I will make it easy.
1. What is rhyme shceme? and what is the rhyme schme for AoTB?
2. The AoTB is written in mainly Quatrain form what is a quatrain? and what particular quatrain form is Tolkien using for the majority of the poem?
3. Is the rhyme heavy (masculine) or light (feminine) in AoTB? And explain why.
4. Onomatopeia is used in AoTB, What is it? and identify where it is used in our piece.
5. What type of rhyme is used in AoTB? and give reasoning hint (Assonant, Consonant, True, Near etc.)
I know this is supposed to be light but it never hurts to learn more about poetry because even if you dont like poetry it likes you.
_____________________________
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Message 2 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/3/2002 1:37 AM
I have already given myself a failing grade for my inability to type the word scheme correctly so after setting myself at the bottom of the curve the rest of you can only go up from here.
__________________________
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Message 3 of 24 in Discussion From: megn1
Sent: 8/3/2002 12:37 PM
We won't discuss how many years it has been since I sat in an English class...
Most of your questions are over my head, Rivers, but I'll take a stab at #1
A Rhyme scheme is the pattern of rhyming words in a poem. Poems which have rhyming (not all do) tend to have a set rhyme pattern for the last word of each line. Each word sound is assigned a letter (a, b, c, etc), and the lines are listed by which word sound ends that line.
To demonstrate:
Sparrow wrote a poem for Soleil's birthday.
Today is your special day,
I hope everything goes your way.
Relax in the sun,
Have some fun,
Let nothing interfere with your play.
The last word of the first line is "day." To it, and all words that sound like it, we assign the letter "a". The second line ends in "way," which rhymes with "day." It therefore also receives a letter "a". The third line ends in "sun." This is a new sound, so we call it "b". The fourth line ends in "fun," which rhymes with "sun." So it, too, is a "b". The last line ends in "play," which rhymes with "day" and "way," so it receives an "a".
Therefore the rhyme scheme of Sparrow's poem is aabba.
This is the traditional rhyme scheme of a limerick.
Another example:
Zauber once posted on these boards a doggeral (aimed at Karo6) containing these lines
You must be an absent-minded dragon,
For there's only one way to beat them.
Remember -- when you put the feed bag on,
To cook meals before you eat them.
In this poem, the first and third lines rhyme (dragon, bag on), as do the second and third lines (beat them, eat them). Therefore the rhyme scheme is abab.
I confess that I have read ahead in Tolkien's verses, and he has some very intriguing rhyme schemes - I think he enjoyed creating difficult patterns for himself, and seeing if he could make a poem in that scheme. But the rhyme scheme for The Adventures of Tom Bombadil seems to be fairly simple. It is aabb for most stanzas, and aabbcc for the six line stanzas.
There is some repetition of the rhymes from one stanza in others, but not following any pattern that I can see.
How'm I doin', Teach?
_______________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 3:39 PM
Uh,Oh! Technical stuff! I think Megn's definition of rhyme scheme merits her status 'cum laude' within our class and having given such a fine description I will choose to slink to another subject and touch on number "4" as it is on of my many obsessions.
Onomatopoeia is defined in 'Websters' as the formation or use of a word that sounds like its referrant. For example "Bark!" "Tweet!" To be concise as well as blunt, I believe it is the basis for all of our spoken languages. You don't have to believe this way of course but it will explain a great many of my ramblings to most of you.
Tolkien uses it in both "Adventures" and "Boating" and in most cases it seems there to delight. Such as: "tickling the bumblebees that "buzzed" among the flowers" Buzzed being a description of both sound, and in modern terms, flight as well.
"bubbling and a-swallowing." Bubbling being the sound he makes when under the water.
In other cases Tolkien uses a more direct form such as "snick" which in the phrase:
"a crack caught him tight: snick! it closed together" Where the previous two examples might be explained towards other definitions, "snick!" clearly represents a quick and almost dastardly sound of a trap closing. "The villian 'snickered' as the hero fell". Tolkien used very careful choices of words to convey his sounds and it seems most all have a double meaning when considered in context to the actions occuring. I want to give you one more to consider. The stanza where he meets the Barrow-wight we read "round the lamp moths began to flutter" Flutter gives us both the sound and describes the motion of the moths. But he reffers again to "flutter" when he catches Goldberry: "he caught her, held her fast! Water rats went scuttering reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering." So with this one word Tolkien has in fact set a mood of relaxed comfort, in the case of the moths, that forshadows terror. And reveresed it's nature, in the case of Goldberry, that the mood is one of terror and chaos but forshadows a time of comfort between Goldberry and Tom. All in all I am delighted that we are considering some of the tools Tolkien used. Thank Rivers for such a great line of questions.
Namárië,
Iarwain
______________________
Reply
Message 5 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:51 PM
Hey my Two star students both make A's very good Megn and Iarwain have both answered absolutely correctly on Rhyme Scheme and Onomatpoeia the answers to he others are just a easy. Thank you guys for doing a fine job on the definitions and placing them in the poem. If the others remain unanswered then I will answer them tommorow but hopefully someone will give them try. Megn I rather doubt that the questions are over your head you are one smart cookie. I didn't know how technical study would go over thanks you guys and everyone else give them a try research is easy on the internet.
__________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameSigevna™
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:22 PM
Oh darn, my first answer just disappeared.
To answer whether or not The Adventures of Tom Bombadil is a masculine or feminine rhyme:
A masculine rhyme occurs in words of one syllable or in an accented syllable, such as light or bite, or de|mise and a|rise, whereas a feminine rhyme ends in an unaccented final syllable.
AoTB is a feminine rhyme:
Old Tom Bombadil was a hearty fel|low;
bright blue his jacket was and his boots were yel|low,
Well I better post this before before it goes missing too.
Siggy
____________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameSigevna™
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:41 PM
Okay, third and last try...
AoTB is a feminine rhyme because its lines end in unaccented syllables.
Old Tom Bombadil was a merry fel|low;
bright blue his jacket was and his boots were yel|low...
A masculine rhyme though, ends in words of one syllable or an accented final syllable, such as Bill or bites or dis|ap|pear or su|prise.
Fun questions River, WTG.
Namárië,
Sigevna
________________________
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Message 8 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameSigevna™
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:48 PM
Hi again Rivers,
Do I get extra credit for two answers even though they're to the same question?
I really thought I had lost message #6...oh well...
Ciao,
Siggy
___________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 24 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 8/4/2002 8:50 PM
This is great! I am learning so much from you! Great questions, Rivers; great answers, everyone.
___________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/6/2002 11:02 PM
Okay first off Sigevna correct and yes I will give extra credit for participation. Way to go and nice to meet you. I see that two of my questions aren't answered so I will answer them and then if I get a positive response I will do the same for Bombadi goes Boating. (Question two concerning Quatrains). Quatrains have to do with the formations of the stanza's. Quatrain meaning a four line stanza and the type of quatrain that has an aabb rhmye scheme is called a double couplet.(Question 5 concerning types of rhyme). There are a few types of rhyme which I will try to describe to you.
1. True Rhyme- two words whose last syllables sound the same.
example:
and swear
nowhere
lives a woman true and fair. ( "Song" John Donne)
2. Assonant Rhyme- the rhyming of vowels only. Rather popular in prose poetry since ithar to recognize.
example:
He was at Naples writing letters home
And, between his letters, reading paragraphs
On the sublime. Vesuvius has groaned
For a month. ("Esthetique du Mal" Wallace Stevens)
( home and groaned rhyme assonantly)
3. Consonant Rhyme- the rhyming of consonants only. (usually lyrical poetry)
example:
But Antichrist got down from the Barbary beast,
And doffed his plume in couteous prostration;
Christ left his jennets back in depreciation
And raised him, his own hand about the waist. ( "Armageddon" John Crowe Ransom)
4. Near Rhyme- A general term to include "assonant" and "consonant" rhyme or words that sound similiar.
example:
I am sorry that
the rich man must go
and leave his house
become a hospital. ( "Disguises" Leonard Cohen)
5. Sight Rhyme- words that are spelled similiarly, but do not rhyme.
example:
I cut the tree, envious,
self-concious of my height
and was crushed under the weight
of its branches.( "Tree" Ryan Deschamps)
Okay after that book of definitions Tom Bombadil is a true rhyme because all the last syllables sound the same. Thank you everyone for your participation in the technical part of the questioning I appreciate your zeal for knowledge as it is increasing my own.
____________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 24 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:05 AM
Rivers:
Thank you for adding the definitions and giving examples of those technical poetry questions! I have never studied poetry before and I am learning something new here! Actually, I would have guessed that the Bombadil poems were true rhyme!
Stormrider
______________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 24 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:34 AM
I vaguely recall the aabb rhyme scheme business from school, but all of this assonant and sight rhymes, etc. is new to me. Fun to be learning new stuff! It gives me more of an appreciation of poems that I thought didn't rhyme. Turns out they might!
Good job Rivers. Are you a teacher or a poet, that you know all of this?
Zauber
________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:42 PM
Zauber I guess thebest description of me would be a student. It seems the old adage, "The more you learn the more you realize how little you know",seems to fit me nicely. Okay good job on AoTB now I am going to ask a few questions about some devices in BGB
1. There are several intances of repetition in BGB. What is it? give an example.
2. What is the Point of View for BGB?
3. BGB is overrun with personifiction. What is it? give an example.
4. Imagery is my favorite part of poetry BGB has an especially good example of this device.
Explain what is and for extra credit find my example stanza in which Tolkien does it the best.
5. There are several phrases that use alitertion. What is it? give an example.
6. Once again Onomatopeia is used show me what you learned by picking out few.
7. Tough one. Metonymy is used at least once in BGB. Wht is it? give an example.
Thank you for your participation it cool to be a part of something where people are interested in learning. You guys and girls are teaching me alot.
____________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:47 PM
Sorry seems my a key must be on the snide. Question 3. (Personification) Question 5. (Aliteration) Thank you
_________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 24 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:43 PM
Personification is thinking of or representing a thing as a person. Examples of this are: the birds and the otter who speak to him in a teasing way and Tom carries on conversations with them.
__________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 24 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/7/2002 11:11 PM
Main Entry: al·lit·er·a·tion
Pronunciation: &-"li-t&-'rA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: ad- + Latin littera letter
Date: circa 1656
: the repetition of usually initial consonant sounds in two or more neighboring words or syllables (as wild and woolly, threatening throngs) -- called also head rhyme, initial rhyme
OR..................ring a ding dillo!
Glor</FORM>
_________________________________
____________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/3/2002 1:33 AM
I guess as this is a study of poetry we should enlighten one another on the types of poetic devices used to convey the message in the AoTB. I also find that giving you a list of poetic devices and what they mean only gives you a crutch so you can look at what I've written and then point out the things that match without knowing what you are talking about. My method is to ask questions pertaining to the poetry and have you look it up and reply in hopes of us both learning what we do instead of matching my definitions to the AoTB. If this seems too much like school for you don't do it but sometimes research is fun besides I will make it easy.
1. What is rhyme shceme? and what is the rhyme schme for AoTB?
2. The AoTB is written in mainly Quatrain form what is a quatrain? and what particular quatrain form is Tolkien using for the majority of the poem?
3. Is the rhyme heavy (masculine) or light (feminine) in AoTB? And explain why.
4. Onomatopeia is used in AoTB, What is it? and identify where it is used in our piece.
5. What type of rhyme is used in AoTB? and give reasoning hint (Assonant, Consonant, True, Near etc.)
I know this is supposed to be light but it never hurts to learn more about poetry because even if you dont like poetry it likes you.
_____________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/3/2002 1:37 AM
I have already given myself a failing grade for my inability to type the word scheme correctly so after setting myself at the bottom of the curve the rest of you can only go up from here.
__________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 24 in Discussion From: megn1
Sent: 8/3/2002 12:37 PM
We won't discuss how many years it has been since I sat in an English class...
Most of your questions are over my head, Rivers, but I'll take a stab at #1
A Rhyme scheme is the pattern of rhyming words in a poem. Poems which have rhyming (not all do) tend to have a set rhyme pattern for the last word of each line. Each word sound is assigned a letter (a, b, c, etc), and the lines are listed by which word sound ends that line.
To demonstrate:
Sparrow wrote a poem for Soleil's birthday.
Today is your special day,
I hope everything goes your way.
Relax in the sun,
Have some fun,
Let nothing interfere with your play.
The last word of the first line is "day." To it, and all words that sound like it, we assign the letter "a". The second line ends in "way," which rhymes with "day." It therefore also receives a letter "a". The third line ends in "sun." This is a new sound, so we call it "b". The fourth line ends in "fun," which rhymes with "sun." So it, too, is a "b". The last line ends in "play," which rhymes with "day" and "way," so it receives an "a".
Therefore the rhyme scheme of Sparrow's poem is aabba.
This is the traditional rhyme scheme of a limerick.
Another example:
Zauber once posted on these boards a doggeral (aimed at Karo6) containing these lines
You must be an absent-minded dragon,
For there's only one way to beat them.
Remember -- when you put the feed bag on,
To cook meals before you eat them.
In this poem, the first and third lines rhyme (dragon, bag on), as do the second and third lines (beat them, eat them). Therefore the rhyme scheme is abab.
I confess that I have read ahead in Tolkien's verses, and he has some very intriguing rhyme schemes - I think he enjoyed creating difficult patterns for himself, and seeing if he could make a poem in that scheme. But the rhyme scheme for The Adventures of Tom Bombadil seems to be fairly simple. It is aabb for most stanzas, and aabbcc for the six line stanzas.
There is some repetition of the rhymes from one stanza in others, but not following any pattern that I can see.
How'm I doin', Teach?
_______________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 3:39 PM
Uh,Oh! Technical stuff! I think Megn's definition of rhyme scheme merits her status 'cum laude' within our class and having given such a fine description I will choose to slink to another subject and touch on number "4" as it is on of my many obsessions.
Onomatopoeia is defined in 'Websters' as the formation or use of a word that sounds like its referrant. For example "Bark!" "Tweet!" To be concise as well as blunt, I believe it is the basis for all of our spoken languages. You don't have to believe this way of course but it will explain a great many of my ramblings to most of you.
Tolkien uses it in both "Adventures" and "Boating" and in most cases it seems there to delight. Such as: "tickling the bumblebees that "buzzed" among the flowers" Buzzed being a description of both sound, and in modern terms, flight as well.
"bubbling and a-swallowing." Bubbling being the sound he makes when under the water.
In other cases Tolkien uses a more direct form such as "snick" which in the phrase:
"a crack caught him tight: snick! it closed together" Where the previous two examples might be explained towards other definitions, "snick!" clearly represents a quick and almost dastardly sound of a trap closing. "The villian 'snickered' as the hero fell". Tolkien used very careful choices of words to convey his sounds and it seems most all have a double meaning when considered in context to the actions occuring. I want to give you one more to consider. The stanza where he meets the Barrow-wight we read "round the lamp moths began to flutter" Flutter gives us both the sound and describes the motion of the moths. But he reffers again to "flutter" when he catches Goldberry: "he caught her, held her fast! Water rats went scuttering reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering." So with this one word Tolkien has in fact set a mood of relaxed comfort, in the case of the moths, that forshadows terror. And reveresed it's nature, in the case of Goldberry, that the mood is one of terror and chaos but forshadows a time of comfort between Goldberry and Tom. All in all I am delighted that we are considering some of the tools Tolkien used. Thank Rivers for such a great line of questions.
Namárië,
Iarwain
______________________
Reply
Message 5 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:51 PM
Hey my Two star students both make A's very good Megn and Iarwain have both answered absolutely correctly on Rhyme Scheme and Onomatpoeia the answers to he others are just a easy. Thank you guys for doing a fine job on the definitions and placing them in the poem. If the others remain unanswered then I will answer them tommorow but hopefully someone will give them try. Megn I rather doubt that the questions are over your head you are one smart cookie. I didn't know how technical study would go over thanks you guys and everyone else give them a try research is easy on the internet.
__________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameSigevna™
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:22 PM
Oh darn, my first answer just disappeared.
To answer whether or not The Adventures of Tom Bombadil is a masculine or feminine rhyme:
A masculine rhyme occurs in words of one syllable or in an accented syllable, such as light or bite, or de|mise and a|rise, whereas a feminine rhyme ends in an unaccented final syllable.
AoTB is a feminine rhyme:
Old Tom Bombadil was a hearty fel|low;
bright blue his jacket was and his boots were yel|low,
Well I better post this before before it goes missing too.
Siggy
____________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameSigevna™
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:41 PM
Okay, third and last try...
AoTB is a feminine rhyme because its lines end in unaccented syllables.
Old Tom Bombadil was a merry fel|low;
bright blue his jacket was and his boots were yel|low...
A masculine rhyme though, ends in words of one syllable or an accented final syllable, such as Bill or bites or dis|ap|pear or su|prise.
Fun questions River, WTG.
Namárië,
Sigevna
________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 24 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameSigevna™
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:48 PM
Hi again Rivers,
Do I get extra credit for two answers even though they're to the same question?
I really thought I had lost message #6...oh well...
Ciao,
Siggy
___________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 24 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 8/4/2002 8:50 PM
This is great! I am learning so much from you! Great questions, Rivers; great answers, everyone.
___________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/6/2002 11:02 PM
Okay first off Sigevna correct and yes I will give extra credit for participation. Way to go and nice to meet you. I see that two of my questions aren't answered so I will answer them and then if I get a positive response I will do the same for Bombadi goes Boating. (Question two concerning Quatrains). Quatrains have to do with the formations of the stanza's. Quatrain meaning a four line stanza and the type of quatrain that has an aabb rhmye scheme is called a double couplet.(Question 5 concerning types of rhyme). There are a few types of rhyme which I will try to describe to you.
1. True Rhyme- two words whose last syllables sound the same.
example:
and swear
nowhere
lives a woman true and fair. ( "Song" John Donne)
2. Assonant Rhyme- the rhyming of vowels only. Rather popular in prose poetry since ithar to recognize.
example:
He was at Naples writing letters home
And, between his letters, reading paragraphs
On the sublime. Vesuvius has groaned
For a month. ("Esthetique du Mal" Wallace Stevens)
( home and groaned rhyme assonantly)
3. Consonant Rhyme- the rhyming of consonants only. (usually lyrical poetry)
example:
But Antichrist got down from the Barbary beast,
And doffed his plume in couteous prostration;
Christ left his jennets back in depreciation
And raised him, his own hand about the waist. ( "Armageddon" John Crowe Ransom)
4. Near Rhyme- A general term to include "assonant" and "consonant" rhyme or words that sound similiar.
example:
I am sorry that
the rich man must go
and leave his house
become a hospital. ( "Disguises" Leonard Cohen)
5. Sight Rhyme- words that are spelled similiarly, but do not rhyme.
example:
I cut the tree, envious,
self-concious of my height
and was crushed under the weight
of its branches.( "Tree" Ryan Deschamps)
Okay after that book of definitions Tom Bombadil is a true rhyme because all the last syllables sound the same. Thank you everyone for your participation in the technical part of the questioning I appreciate your zeal for knowledge as it is increasing my own.
____________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 24 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:05 AM
Rivers:
Thank you for adding the definitions and giving examples of those technical poetry questions! I have never studied poetry before and I am learning something new here! Actually, I would have guessed that the Bombadil poems were true rhyme!
Stormrider
______________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 24 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:34 AM
I vaguely recall the aabb rhyme scheme business from school, but all of this assonant and sight rhymes, etc. is new to me. Fun to be learning new stuff! It gives me more of an appreciation of poems that I thought didn't rhyme. Turns out they might!
Good job Rivers. Are you a teacher or a poet, that you know all of this?
Zauber
________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:42 PM
Zauber I guess thebest description of me would be a student. It seems the old adage, "The more you learn the more you realize how little you know",seems to fit me nicely. Okay good job on AoTB now I am going to ask a few questions about some devices in BGB
1. There are several intances of repetition in BGB. What is it? give an example.
2. What is the Point of View for BGB?
3. BGB is overrun with personifiction. What is it? give an example.
4. Imagery is my favorite part of poetry BGB has an especially good example of this device.
Explain what is and for extra credit find my example stanza in which Tolkien does it the best.
5. There are several phrases that use alitertion. What is it? give an example.
6. Once again Onomatopeia is used show me what you learned by picking out few.
7. Tough one. Metonymy is used at least once in BGB. Wht is it? give an example.
Thank you for your participation it cool to be a part of something where people are interested in learning. You guys and girls are teaching me alot.
____________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 24 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:47 PM
Sorry seems my a key must be on the snide. Question 3. (Personification) Question 5. (Aliteration) Thank you
_________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 24 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:43 PM
Personification is thinking of or representing a thing as a person. Examples of this are: the birds and the otter who speak to him in a teasing way and Tom carries on conversations with them.
__________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 24 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/7/2002 11:11 PM
Main Entry: al·lit·er·a·tion
Pronunciation: &-"li-t&-'rA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: ad- + Latin littera letter
Date: circa 1656
: the repetition of usually initial consonant sounds in two or more neighboring words or syllables (as wild and woolly, threatening throngs) -- called also head rhyme, initial rhyme
OR..................ring a ding dillo!
Glor</FORM>
_________________________________