Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 12:31:31 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE : Goldberry
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Message 1 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:23 PM
Seems there is no getting around it, people also want to consider her origins as well as her needs. So let's hear some thoughts, did Bombadil have to get the lillies for her survival?
Whom to you think is the River Woman?
Does this make Ulmo her father?
Do you think her character might be described as a Nymph?
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Message 2 of 14 in Discussion From: Amaranth
Sent: 8/3/2002 5:19 PM
Good questions, Iarwain! I was just going through my books looking
for that very info. There's preciousssss little about Goldberry.
As for her mother being the daughter of Ulmo, I couldn't find a thing.
__
The only hint I found of Goldberry's background is in Letter 210, item 7:
"Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands."
By 'such lands,' Tolkien means that M-e is a real place, as opposed to
'fairy-lands' in reference to a film treatment of LotR. Tolkien seemed
almost offended by the film treating M-e like a fairyland, so maybe he
wouldn't be too happy about Goldberry being described as a nymph!
Though nymphs are mythical, which isn't exactly the same as fantastical
(is it?). Still, I think the general idea is the same: M-e is to be
understood and treated as a real world and not make-believe.
__
A couple of things about Tom Bombadil:
"Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth
came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees."
(RETURN OF THE SHADOW, HoME 6, HoLOTR 1, Chapter VI:
'Tom Bombadil,' page 122.)
Also, a footnote to the preface of The Adventures of TB says that the
name 'Tom Bombadil' was given to TB by Bucklanders to add to his
many older names. But there's nothing about what those older names
might be.
~ Diana
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Message 3 of 14 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/3/2002 6:39 PM
Diana,
At the Council in Rivendell, Lord Elrond tells us some of the older names. The elves call him Iarwain Ben-Adar oldest and Fatherless, Forn by the Dwarves, and Orald by Northern Men.
For me River Woman is the River herself, or perhaps the spirit that dwells in the deepest hollow. Goldberry, if she be more than the River-Woman's daughter, is an entity I must think about a little more. "That she represents the changing seasons in that land" is a new concept for me.
Annie
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Message 4 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 10:36 PM
How about this then....Tom is Nature.............Goldberry is TIME.....
Glor
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Message 5 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 10:45 PM
Now that I think about it...what better marriage then nature and time. And those two entities WOULD have reached ME before other beings arrived. They would be oldest.
It may also explain TB reluctance to deal with Goldberry at first. Nature would not like to be restricted with time. But change it must, and Goldberry being time makes Tom being nature change seasonally and thru the ages. This could be why Tom is described as ageless. The seasons change, the ages change, but nature does not.
just some musings,
Glor
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Message 6 of 14 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 8/3/2002 10:54 PM
Interesting thought, Glor, that Goldberry is Time. In fact, Time has been described as flowing like a river. . .
I like the idea of nature wedded to time.
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Message 7 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:00 PM
Of course! The River-woman is TIME.....and Goldberry is her daughter......."the changing seasons"!
Glor
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Message 8 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:05 PM
Tom at first resisted change from Goldberry, but once he saw the beauty in changing his "nature" seasonally, he fell in love with her.
Glor
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Message 9 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:15 PM
OK, now I am loosing it, so forgive these rambles. There was talk of Miar and sub-Miar type entities. Suppose these sub-Miar entities are offspring? Like River-woman being the stronger original Miar, and her offspring Goldberry being a lesser-Miar...just changing seasons, offspring of time?
thanks for the indulgence,
Glor
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Message 10 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:20 PM
Glor,
Very intense and deep, and quite plausible! Time the flowing of the river always moving never ceasing. Goldberry whom in the Tales is credited loosely for the weather: "Goldberry's wash day". And Tom as nature neither heeding nor hindering but accepting and living with the flow of both through his Forest and his life as nature unruffled. Bloody brilliant Glor! I hadn't considered this path, seems I've been too busy finding out one they weren't to consider them "elementals". As far as Tolkien's motivation for including Bombadil into TLotR I'm going to have to stand firm with the father/ Id metaphor. But as far as what they represent to the Tales you have caused me to consider a new epithet for the Three. Hantale, Toron!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 8/5/2002 8:35 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 12 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/5/2002 10:22 AM
Walda,
Interesting thoughts, and the water lillies Tom is fetching for Golberry become a metaphor for the pomegrante seeds Persephone ate. Although I find Tom a bit too benevolent to compare to the lord of the underworld. But I like thinking about it, as we can't really be completely sure of Tolkien's true motivations about this tale.
Good to see you here, I look forward to more comments.
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 8/6/2002 7:15 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 14 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 8:06 AM
Here's my spin ...
1. I don't think the water lillies were necessary for her survival. I would rather agree with a statement Annie made elsewhere ... Tom was simply bringing them to her to alleviate any "homesick" feelings she may have.
2. I believe that the River-Woman is simply ... the river. As I have stated elsewhere ... Tom and Goldberry are "Forces" to me. Tom is the nature, health, and personification of the Old Forest and Goldberry is the changing seasons. I would agree with Glor that Time is definitely a factor in Goldberry's being but I would not call her Time. She is, rather, the result of Time - change. Anyway ... since both Tom and Goldberry are "Forces" they are not obligated to having parents. Water is an important indicator of season and I believe this is why Goldberry is referred to as the "River-Woman's" daughter.
3. No ... Ulmo is not her father. Goldberry was not "born" but experienced "existance" at the point of creation.
4. Nope ... she is not a Nymph. In the traditional sense of a Nymph, she would not be able to leave her source of water ...
Algamesh
__________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 4:23 PM
Seems there is no getting around it, people also want to consider her origins as well as her needs. So let's hear some thoughts, did Bombadil have to get the lillies for her survival?
Whom to you think is the River Woman?
Does this make Ulmo her father?
Do you think her character might be described as a Nymph?
__________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 14 in Discussion From: Amaranth
Sent: 8/3/2002 5:19 PM
Good questions, Iarwain! I was just going through my books looking
for that very info. There's preciousssss little about Goldberry.
As for her mother being the daughter of Ulmo, I couldn't find a thing.
__
The only hint I found of Goldberry's background is in Letter 210, item 7:
"Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands."
By 'such lands,' Tolkien means that M-e is a real place, as opposed to
'fairy-lands' in reference to a film treatment of LotR. Tolkien seemed
almost offended by the film treating M-e like a fairyland, so maybe he
wouldn't be too happy about Goldberry being described as a nymph!
Though nymphs are mythical, which isn't exactly the same as fantastical
(is it?). Still, I think the general idea is the same: M-e is to be
understood and treated as a real world and not make-believe.
__
A couple of things about Tom Bombadil:
"Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth
came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees."
(RETURN OF THE SHADOW, HoME 6, HoLOTR 1, Chapter VI:
'Tom Bombadil,' page 122.)
Also, a footnote to the preface of The Adventures of TB says that the
name 'Tom Bombadil' was given to TB by Bucklanders to add to his
many older names. But there's nothing about what those older names
might be.
~ Diana
___________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 14 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/3/2002 6:39 PM
Diana,
At the Council in Rivendell, Lord Elrond tells us some of the older names. The elves call him Iarwain Ben-Adar oldest and Fatherless, Forn by the Dwarves, and Orald by Northern Men.
For me River Woman is the River herself, or perhaps the spirit that dwells in the deepest hollow. Goldberry, if she be more than the River-Woman's daughter, is an entity I must think about a little more. "That she represents the changing seasons in that land" is a new concept for me.
Annie
___________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 10:36 PM
How about this then....Tom is Nature.............Goldberry is TIME.....
Glor
___________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 10:45 PM
Now that I think about it...what better marriage then nature and time. And those two entities WOULD have reached ME before other beings arrived. They would be oldest.
It may also explain TB reluctance to deal with Goldberry at first. Nature would not like to be restricted with time. But change it must, and Goldberry being time makes Tom being nature change seasonally and thru the ages. This could be why Tom is described as ageless. The seasons change, the ages change, but nature does not.
just some musings,
Glor
___________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 14 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 8/3/2002 10:54 PM
Interesting thought, Glor, that Goldberry is Time. In fact, Time has been described as flowing like a river. . .
I like the idea of nature wedded to time.
________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:00 PM
Of course! The River-woman is TIME.....and Goldberry is her daughter......."the changing seasons"!
Glor
______________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:05 PM
Tom at first resisted change from Goldberry, but once he saw the beauty in changing his "nature" seasonally, he fell in love with her.
Glor
________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 14 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:15 PM
OK, now I am loosing it, so forgive these rambles. There was talk of Miar and sub-Miar type entities. Suppose these sub-Miar entities are offspring? Like River-woman being the stronger original Miar, and her offspring Goldberry being a lesser-Miar...just changing seasons, offspring of time?
thanks for the indulgence,
Glor
_________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 11:20 PM
Glor,
Very intense and deep, and quite plausible! Time the flowing of the river always moving never ceasing. Goldberry whom in the Tales is credited loosely for the weather: "Goldberry's wash day". And Tom as nature neither heeding nor hindering but accepting and living with the flow of both through his Forest and his life as nature unruffled. Bloody brilliant Glor! I hadn't considered this path, seems I've been too busy finding out one they weren't to consider them "elementals". As far as Tolkien's motivation for including Bombadil into TLotR I'm going to have to stand firm with the father/ Id metaphor. But as far as what they represent to the Tales you have caused me to consider a new epithet for the Three. Hantale, Toron!
Namárië,
Iarwain
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 8/5/2002 8:35 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
______________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/5/2002 10:22 AM
Walda,
Interesting thoughts, and the water lillies Tom is fetching for Golberry become a metaphor for the pomegrante seeds Persephone ate. Although I find Tom a bit too benevolent to compare to the lord of the underworld. But I like thinking about it, as we can't really be completely sure of Tolkien's true motivations about this tale.
Good to see you here, I look forward to more comments.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 8/6/2002 7:15 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 14 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 8:06 AM
Here's my spin ...
1. I don't think the water lillies were necessary for her survival. I would rather agree with a statement Annie made elsewhere ... Tom was simply bringing them to her to alleviate any "homesick" feelings she may have.
2. I believe that the River-Woman is simply ... the river. As I have stated elsewhere ... Tom and Goldberry are "Forces" to me. Tom is the nature, health, and personification of the Old Forest and Goldberry is the changing seasons. I would agree with Glor that Time is definitely a factor in Goldberry's being but I would not call her Time. She is, rather, the result of Time - change. Anyway ... since both Tom and Goldberry are "Forces" they are not obligated to having parents. Water is an important indicator of season and I believe this is why Goldberry is referred to as the "River-Woman's" daughter.
3. No ... Ulmo is not her father. Goldberry was not "born" but experienced "existance" at the point of creation.
4. Nope ... she is not a Nymph. In the traditional sense of a Nymph, she would not be able to leave her source of water ...
Algamesh