Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 12:43:16 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Errantry vs Tom
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Message 1 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/12/2002 12:05 AM
Errantry is a beautiful poem filled with romanticism. Compare the mariner to Tom Bombadil by characteristics they share.
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Message 2 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/12/2002 5:55 AM
Like Tom, the mariner seems to be a roving sort of guy, free of spirit and direction. He takes things as they come and goes in whatever direction is the most pleasing.
Stormrider
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Message 3 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 8/12/2002 9:00 PM
I find similarities in how the mariner and Tom find wives. They both catch their wives, although in Bombadil's case it turns out better. This way of finding a lover adds a big degree of lightness (if thats the word) levity? to both stories.
fallohide
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Message 4 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/13/2002 12:27 AM
Fallohide that was the trait that stuck out with me also. The warlike nature of the mariner and constant desire for travel directly contest Tom's passive nature and love of home. What is it that makes some wander while others are so happy staying put?
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Message 5 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/13/2002 12:58 AM
Tolkiens works are filled with wanderlust, but was it an inate trait of his? I think it was. But not to wander in our world at our times. His wanderlust was to travel in the valleys of his making. To lean against a giant Mallorn while scoping out the massive peaks of Cahadras. To have the breath escape, and fill with tomb air, when entering Moria.
To lose hope of everything, when walking down into the vale of Mordor. Tolkiens errantry was to encompass me in the world he made. He succeeded.
Glor
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Message 6 of 11 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:17 AM
Very beautifully put, Glor. I agree. Tolkien 'the man' was quite a home-body and did his adventuring in his mind and with his pen. To our benefit!
Zauber
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Message 7 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:55 AM
I would agree that one similarity between Tom and the Mariner is their wanderlust but Tom knows where home is and when his adventure is finished he turns his boots homeward; he even abandons his boat. The Mariner, on the other hand, is "for ever still a messenger, a passenger, a tarrier, a-roving as a feather does, a weather driven mariner." Fallohide has pointed out another similarity - that both Tom and the mariner catch their wives. Perhaps in Tom’s case, it turns out better because Goldberry chooses to be caught but she still remains a free spirit. The butterfly scorns the mariner, scoffs at him and laughs at him until our errant wanderer discovers how to snare her, imprison her (or at least that’s how it seems to me). When they fall to quarrelling and sorrowing, the mariner leaves her withering to continue his errantry; he speeds away.
Rivers asks an interesting question: "What is it that makes some wander while others are so happy staying put?" Perhaps Tom knows where his bliss is; the mariner has no idea and that might be what he is truly searching for; that may even be the message he has forgotten.
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Message 8 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:59 AM
It is my opinion that Bombadil and the mariner are not similar. The most basic reasoning for this comes from the fact that I like Bombadil and I see him as a Power whereas the mariner is an irresponsible slacker.
Obviously, the mariner had an important message to deliver to some unknown entity but he never quite made it to his destination. He was distracted by events that led him to personal gain and glory - a trait that is very unlike any Bombadil possesses.
I don't believe that Bombadil suffered from Wanderlust either. He roamed his domain and that is the extent of his journeys.
Stormrider and I were involved in a conversation yestereve concerning whether Bombadil had ever actually roamed beyond the Forest. In my mind, he did not. Bombadil was an Aspect of the Forest and hence bound to it. In "Bombadil goes Boating" there is a suggestion that he went to Maggot's house for revelry. I feel this is an "imaginary" event created by the author to build a story. Bombadil and Maggot met on the eaves of the Forest, in my mind. Anyone differ in opinion?
Algamesh
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Message 9 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 8/13/2002 1:35 PM
Dunno, Algy, thats interesting.
My first question would be how far are the barrow downs from the forest? or are the downs part of Bombadil's domain? I've aways tended to think that Bombadil could have left his home if he wanted, and wasn't interested in doing so. But, come to think, there doesnt seem to be much evidence to support this. I'd assumed that the Elves and others knew about him from some earlier wanderings of his, but it could just as easily have been that the Elves wandered into Toms forest.
~ fallohide
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Message 10 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/13/2002 2:41 PM
I do not like the mariner very much. He has responsibility that he does not carry out because he is easily distracted. He forces a butterfly to marry him and treats her very badly, so badly that there is very ill will between them causing him to abandon her completely. Then he continues to fly by the seat of his pants for many more days before he remembers his message.
Tom Bombadil has a good nature whereas the mariner seems bad tempered and ill mannered. Tom brings joy and peace to people, the mariner seems to stir up dischord and anxiety.
Stormrider
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Message 11 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:36 PM
Interesting, how everyone has taken the word "Messenger" and inflated it to some duty this "Mariner" had. In the begining of the Poem it states he built the "gilded gondola to wander in". Had he at the point of building his craft already forgotten his errand?
I had started to add this to another thread, but this one is already begun to consider the feeling I get when regarding the Mariner. I find him and Bombadil to both have a hidden message. Where Bombadil seems to speak of knowlege without vanity for knowleges sake or insight into what is and what's new without the need to control or posess. The Mariner with his dimunitive size, assuming it is relative to the creatures that surround him through this poem, is pointing out the little importence of his glorious adventures as compared with the wide world. At one point Tolkien builds him up as this fabulously arrayed knight fighting insects for a simple honeycomb. The ludicrous over preparation of his gondola for the simple journey of life. In all his adventures he never really gets it and is doomed to remember "the message" but also doomed to be "a passenger, a tarrier, a roving as a feather does, a weather driven mariner."
So much like ourselves, ever begining each new day with a thought of a new goal, only to forget that goal as other issues begin to drive it from our minds. I often look back to recall what I had envisioned for myself at this point in life, and still have many of the preparations to remined me of my folly.
See he delevered his message after all, at least from my point of view, I recieved it.
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 1 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/12/2002 12:05 AM
Errantry is a beautiful poem filled with romanticism. Compare the mariner to Tom Bombadil by characteristics they share.
_______________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/12/2002 5:55 AM
Like Tom, the mariner seems to be a roving sort of guy, free of spirit and direction. He takes things as they come and goes in whatever direction is the most pleasing.
Stormrider
________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 8/12/2002 9:00 PM
I find similarities in how the mariner and Tom find wives. They both catch their wives, although in Bombadil's case it turns out better. This way of finding a lover adds a big degree of lightness (if thats the word) levity? to both stories.
fallohide
___________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/13/2002 12:27 AM
Fallohide that was the trait that stuck out with me also. The warlike nature of the mariner and constant desire for travel directly contest Tom's passive nature and love of home. What is it that makes some wander while others are so happy staying put?
______________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/13/2002 12:58 AM
Tolkiens works are filled with wanderlust, but was it an inate trait of his? I think it was. But not to wander in our world at our times. His wanderlust was to travel in the valleys of his making. To lean against a giant Mallorn while scoping out the massive peaks of Cahadras. To have the breath escape, and fill with tomb air, when entering Moria.
To lose hope of everything, when walking down into the vale of Mordor. Tolkiens errantry was to encompass me in the world he made. He succeeded.
Glor
_________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 11 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:17 AM
Very beautifully put, Glor. I agree. Tolkien 'the man' was quite a home-body and did his adventuring in his mind and with his pen. To our benefit!
Zauber
___________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:55 AM
I would agree that one similarity between Tom and the Mariner is their wanderlust but Tom knows where home is and when his adventure is finished he turns his boots homeward; he even abandons his boat. The Mariner, on the other hand, is "for ever still a messenger, a passenger, a tarrier, a-roving as a feather does, a weather driven mariner." Fallohide has pointed out another similarity - that both Tom and the mariner catch their wives. Perhaps in Tom’s case, it turns out better because Goldberry chooses to be caught but she still remains a free spirit. The butterfly scorns the mariner, scoffs at him and laughs at him until our errant wanderer discovers how to snare her, imprison her (or at least that’s how it seems to me). When they fall to quarrelling and sorrowing, the mariner leaves her withering to continue his errantry; he speeds away.
Rivers asks an interesting question: "What is it that makes some wander while others are so happy staying put?" Perhaps Tom knows where his bliss is; the mariner has no idea and that might be what he is truly searching for; that may even be the message he has forgotten.
___________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:59 AM
It is my opinion that Bombadil and the mariner are not similar. The most basic reasoning for this comes from the fact that I like Bombadil and I see him as a Power whereas the mariner is an irresponsible slacker.
Obviously, the mariner had an important message to deliver to some unknown entity but he never quite made it to his destination. He was distracted by events that led him to personal gain and glory - a trait that is very unlike any Bombadil possesses.
I don't believe that Bombadil suffered from Wanderlust either. He roamed his domain and that is the extent of his journeys.
Stormrider and I were involved in a conversation yestereve concerning whether Bombadil had ever actually roamed beyond the Forest. In my mind, he did not. Bombadil was an Aspect of the Forest and hence bound to it. In "Bombadil goes Boating" there is a suggestion that he went to Maggot's house for revelry. I feel this is an "imaginary" event created by the author to build a story. Bombadil and Maggot met on the eaves of the Forest, in my mind. Anyone differ in opinion?
Algamesh
______________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 8/13/2002 1:35 PM
Dunno, Algy, thats interesting.
My first question would be how far are the barrow downs from the forest? or are the downs part of Bombadil's domain? I've aways tended to think that Bombadil could have left his home if he wanted, and wasn't interested in doing so. But, come to think, there doesnt seem to be much evidence to support this. I'd assumed that the Elves and others knew about him from some earlier wanderings of his, but it could just as easily have been that the Elves wandered into Toms forest.
~ fallohide
_______________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/13/2002 2:41 PM
I do not like the mariner very much. He has responsibility that he does not carry out because he is easily distracted. He forces a butterfly to marry him and treats her very badly, so badly that there is very ill will between them causing him to abandon her completely. Then he continues to fly by the seat of his pants for many more days before he remembers his message.
Tom Bombadil has a good nature whereas the mariner seems bad tempered and ill mannered. Tom brings joy and peace to people, the mariner seems to stir up dischord and anxiety.
Stormrider
____________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/13/2002 6:36 PM
Interesting, how everyone has taken the word "Messenger" and inflated it to some duty this "Mariner" had. In the begining of the Poem it states he built the "gilded gondola to wander in". Had he at the point of building his craft already forgotten his errand?
I had started to add this to another thread, but this one is already begun to consider the feeling I get when regarding the Mariner. I find him and Bombadil to both have a hidden message. Where Bombadil seems to speak of knowlege without vanity for knowleges sake or insight into what is and what's new without the need to control or posess. The Mariner with his dimunitive size, assuming it is relative to the creatures that surround him through this poem, is pointing out the little importence of his glorious adventures as compared with the wide world. At one point Tolkien builds him up as this fabulously arrayed knight fighting insects for a simple honeycomb. The ludicrous over preparation of his gondola for the simple journey of life. In all his adventures he never really gets it and is doomed to remember "the message" but also doomed to be "a passenger, a tarrier, a roving as a feather does, a weather driven mariner."
So much like ourselves, ever begining each new day with a thought of a new goal, only to forget that goal as other issues begin to drive it from our minds. I often look back to recall what I had envisioned for myself at this point in life, and still have many of the preparations to remined me of my folly.
See he delevered his message after all, at least from my point of view, I recieved it.
Namárië,
Iarwain