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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 21:33:19 GMT -6
From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 3/16/2003 9:36 PM Minas Tirith
Copyright Paul Gregory. All Rights Reserved. The cities of Gondor formed a symbolic cosmos, The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars: -Minas Tirith, originally called Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun changed to Tower of the Guard) -Minas Morgul, originally called Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon changed to Tower of Sorcery) -Osgiliath was the original city (Fortress of the Stars or Citadel of the Stars) now in ruins was not much of a fortress! -Minas Tirith's seven levels are similar to the seven planets of Ptolemaic astronomy. This city was modeled on the idea of the universe just as other ancient peoples from our world modeled their cities. Gondor stands in the foremost of Sauron's attack and must put forth a strong stand against him. Other countries depend on Gondor's firm stance. They feel the need to send armies to help in the battle against the Dark Power. Reading through the war preparations of Gondor and its desperate plight, I felt how the other countries were depending on Gondor to win and keep a strong protective barrier against the Land of Shadow. Sauron, too, was counting on a big win by destroying Gondor and finding The Ring in the spoils. Should Gondor fail it would not be long before he made his way across the land conquering other countries as well. Many of the people of Gondor and the surrounding areas were aware of Sauron's hatred and the strength of Mordor but did they know the full meaning of the war and Sauron's true desire to find his Ring and rule the world? Would they be hopeful or hopelessly distraught knowing the only way to defeat Sauron was to destroy The Ring in Mount Doom; and that the one assigned to that task was just one small Hobbit and his faithful gardener? Stormrider |
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 21:37:31 GMT -6
From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/18/2003 8:48 AM
Had the people of Gondor known the full meaning of the war and Sauron's true desire to find his Ring and rule the world and that the only way to defeat Sauron was to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom and the ones doing it were a small hobbit and his gardener they would have been hopeful. Yep, I said hopeful. I always feel better knowing the whole plan. Plus the people of Gondor knew that they had a Hobbit among them (which they thought highly of, calling him Prince of the Halflings). They also knew that Sauron was attacking them. So putting 2 and 2 together they may have thought up using Pippin as bait to keep Sauron's mind off of what the real Ringbearer was up to. Plus most ME folk's first opinion of the Hobbit is useless, unimportant ect... Sauron knows a Hobbit is the Ringbearer but he is under estimating our Hobbits, Frodo and Sam!
Desi
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From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/18/2003 10:03 AM
Desi:
Sauron is not sure where the Ring is at this point. He knows from torchering Gollum that it had been owned by a "Baggins" in the Shire and that it left the Shire. Aragorn showed himself to Sauron in the palantir and now Sauron suspects that he could be the one with the Ring. Sauron does not suspect that anyone would ever want to destroy it either--he thinks anyone who has it would be more likely to want to wield it themselves.
So secrecy about Frodo and his whereabouts and intentions is what is most important to Gandalf and company.
Stormrider
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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/18/2003 10:28 AM
That was my point, Sauron doesn't know who has It so if Gondor some how allowed Sauron to think Pippen had it then Frodo and Sam wouldn't even be noticed!
But of course if the people of Gondor knew that the only way to defeat Sauron was to destroy The Ring in Mount Doom; and that the one assigned to that task was just one small Hobbit and his faithful gardener then the story would be completely different! You did ask however what if!
Desi
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From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/18/2003 1:36 PM
You probably noticed the thread I had posted on the General board entitled "Gondor News." I had not really thought of it so much as a joke as more of a what if? (and it sort of fits in with this thread of the study)
My first thought about the article was: “What if the people of Middle Earth had reacted along these lines?” What if they were willing to give Sauron the benefit of a doubt and not take the power of the One Ring seriously or Sauron’s intentions once he had won it back?
OK, Tolkien wrote his story indicating that they do take Sauron and his threats seriously since his forces have been threatening them over the years and are now on their doorsteps. But what if they hadn’t taken him seriously and did wish to give him that benefit of a doubt and reacted as in the Gondor News article?
I was thinking when I posted it that because the people of Gondor (despite the fact that Sauron had been attacking their outskirts over the years) may have forgotten why Sauron was defeated in the Battle of the Last Alliance in the first place. The current generation of Gondorians may not have had the old tales passed down from father to son and, therefore, the seriousness of his threat faded and a more tolerant approach to him took shape.
Just think how different ROTK would have been then!
Stormrider
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From: Merlin the mad Sent: 3/18/2003 4:26 PM
"Gondor stands in the foremost of Sauron's attack and must put forth a strong stand against him. Other countries depend on Gondor's firm stance. They feel the need to send armies to help in the battle against the Dark Power. "
This is a type of Constantinople in every respect: situation, decadence, multiple walls, the greatest fortress of the West. The West sending troops (but far from enough) to help in the defense against the darkness of the East.
If Constantinople had survived like Minas Tirith, history would be different today! (But I can't say how; it just would; perhaps Islam would have gone into a decline instead of continuing to spread as it did under the Ottomans.)
MtM
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From: LindaS Sent: 3/23/2003 6:09 PM
I have one problem concerning the Ring: What did Sauron know and when did he know it?
It seems that Sauron is getting conflicting information. Aragorn has fought with him via the palantir, but Denethor has also used the palantir after he learns from Faramir the whereabouts of two hobbits in Mordor.
When Frodo and Sam approach Shelob's lair, orcs are already hunting for "spies" that may have some trinket or "ring." Yet Sauron throws all his concentration on the army at the Black Gate, an army that is obviously not adequate to really give him much of a challenge. (Query: If Sauron knew about the presence of the hobbits in Mordor, and captured one, why did he stop looking after finding one hobbit?)
What's going on here?
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From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/24/2003 6:41 AM
Linda:
(Query: If Sauron knew about the presence of the hobbits in Mordor, and captured one, why did he stop looking after finding one hobbit?)
Good question and one that has puzzled me, too! However, that is a topic for discussion a little later in this study, so I would like to request that we not discuss this yet! LOL!
Thanks everyone!
Stormrider
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From: Kendal Sent: 9/3/2003 7:18 AM
RE: Stormridr's "The cities of Gondor formed a symbolic cosmos, The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars..."
Thank You, Stormrider -- this comment of yours, which sounds remarkably Platonic/ Ptolemaic, has stimulated me to start some research into "Tolkien and the City." How does JRRT portray the urban centers of Arda? The circular symmetry he describes for Gondor is parallelled by a similar structure for the Elven city of Gondolind in Beleriand, and I think is also used in the Valinorean center of Tirion upon the hill of Tuna. I'll have to do some research now to see if "town-planning" in Middle-earth is always, or generally, or just occasionally "circular-cosmic" in its form.
For all his scholastic erudition, the ultra symmetry of Tolkien's concentrically-circled cities seems oddly unrealistic when compared to the models he had available -- Romano-Etruscan rectangular-gridded centers; and the organically sprawling, twisted lanes of medieval Europe.
Few of the peoples I have studied ever lived in concentric-circular cities, even when they conceived their centers to be, as you put it, representations of the cosmos. Teotihuacan in Mexico is a grid patterned layout with right angled avenues forming plazas and building squares representing the pre-Azteco, Nonohualco concept of the universe. The Sumero-Babylonian centers are likewise gridded affairs though the tablets makle it clear that they still were seen as models of the cosmos. Just off hand, the only circular patterns actually constructed seem to belong to nomadic groups, like the circle of the plains Indian teepees, the "Hoop of the People." Perhaps this is a functional aspect of city building in the real world where concentric circles would waste space, create ineffcient systems of radiating roads, and result in less defensible wall structures where enfilading positions (in the re-entrant angles and salients of the straight wall segments of rectangular cities) would not be available for city defenses.
So, the question I'll be following this month is: Why does Tolkien so frequently use "non-realistic" cities in his Middle-earth tales? Or does he?
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