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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 21:40:26 GMT -6
From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 3/16/2003 10:14 PM Boromir and Faramir Copyright Catherine Karina Chmiel. All Rights Reserved Denethor states, "Little love do I bear the name [of Halfling], since those accursed words [refers to the omen concerning Isildur's Bane and the Halfling that Boromir brought to Rivendell to have interpreted] came to trouble our counsels and drew away my son on the wild errand to his death. My Boromir! Now we have need of you. Faramir should have gone in his stead." We also learn later in the chapter from Gandalf that the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in Denethor and Faramir, yet did not in Boromir. Pippin even thought that Denethor looked more like Aragorn than Boromir. In Appendix A in the section on The Stewards, we learn that the mother of Boromir and Faramir was Finduilas, daughter of Adrahil of Dol Amroth. How does Denthor/Boromir/Faramir's line trace back to Westernesse? How can this bloodline be nearly true in Denethor and Faramir but not Boromir? Why did Denethor favor Boromir over Faramir? Why did Denethor wish that Faramir had gone in Boromir's stead? What need could Boromir have filled that Faramir could not? Stormrider
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 21:44:17 GMT -6
From: LindaS Sent: 3/17/2003 2:40 PM First, after rereading ROTK to try and answer these questions, I think you could have a course just on the relationship of Denethor, Boromir, Faramir and Aragorn! The Stewards were a hereditary position, similar to that of a king, and were of the Numenorean race, the same as Aragorn, a high race of men. So descendants of the early Numenorean Stewards would have passed on Numenorean qualities. That Tolkien shows that the Numenorean blood runs "true" in Denethor and his youngest son and not Boromir is by the way both Denethor and Faramir both display a great deal of intelligence, perception and knowledge which they both bring to bear on the tasks that are before them. Why this is so, I see no explaination, other than the usual hereditary view that an offspring may or may not inherit certain qualities of the parents. Boromir didn't get the "wisdom" gene, although there is no question that he has certain of the qualties of these High Men. So why would Denethor favor the son least like him? What we see here is more than the special affection a father has for the firstborn son. Denethor also fears Faramir. Faramir represents the return of the king, and Tolkien even draws paralells between Faramir and Aragorn. Faramir is a throwback to the time of the early kings in his actions and attitudes, and is a constant reminder to Denethor that the days of his power are over. Denethor has the knowledge to perceive this perfectly, and knows he is powerless to prevent the end of the Stewardship. Faramir becomes the object of Denethor's frustration.
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From: LindaS Sent: 3/18/2003 10:48 AM In Sir James Frazer's "The Golden Bough" he begins his examination of folktales and myths by discussing the architypal story of the death of the king/priest. In this story, a lone figure of the king/priest stands under a tree awaiting an enemy. The enemy is the person who will kill the king and take his place. It is a myth that Frazer demonstrates occurs in many local legends and myths. The concept may be rooted in the belief that the "death" and "rebirth" of the priest/king is necessary to insure the continuance of the community, the health of crops, the birth of children, etc. The story of Denethor seems to follow this myth. Tolkien presents him not only as the kingly figure but also a priestly one, one who leads people and has a great power of insight. Denethor is compared to a king and also to Gandalf, who as a Maia, is a divine figure. And Denethor is waiting, waiting for the coming of the one who will take his life, in effect, and claim the leadership. And Tolkien seems to present these events as necessary for the future survival of Middle Earth. Looking forward to your comments. Linda
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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/18/2003 11:32 AM Linda, I will not go into depth like you because before I read your first post I didn't like Denethor. Being a parent I could not believe that a parent could love one child so much and completely dislike the other! You have opened my eyes! I now see that Denethor doesn't so much hate Faramir but is more frustrated by him because Faramir reminds him that his Stewardship will come to an end! Desi
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From: LindaS Sent: 3/18/2003 2:45 PM Hello, Desi, thanks for your comment! I can't speak as a parent, so I never thought to look at Denethor that way. But I don't find Denethor totally unsympathetic. Certainly he is under a great deal of pressure, physically, emotionally and mentally because of the threat to his people. And he is in mourning for his child. I think also that at times great sorrow is expressed in anger, and unfortunately anger is easier to express against those one is closest to. We also see that Denethor immediately begins to grieve for the stricken Faramir, and it is that grief that seems to drive him over the edge. So he did have some fatherly feelings for his second son. In short, I think Denethor is very complex, maybe Tolkien's most complex character. What do you think? Linda
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From: Redha Sent: 3/18/2003 3:09 PM Linda, After reading you posts, I had an awful thought! What if Denethor seems to love Boromir more because he could see that Boromir needed him more? That is, Faramir being like his father, did not need the same attention to grow up. I don't like this possiblity, but I have seen it for myself. The parents lavish their attention and love on the "special" child and the "normal" child suffers for it. Everything the "special" child accomplishes is wonderful because of the parents' need to make-up for their failure, as they see it, to do right by their offspring in the first place. Denethor's rivalry with Thorongil seems to be tied up with paternal love issues as well. His own father's love being bestowed on the "better" child. That is Aragorn appearing to be the better-bred "son" than Denethor. Could Denethor be sub-consciously depriving the his "better" son of his affection? Is jealously of Gandalf's approval no different than being jealous of his own father's approval? Would he feel angry and hurt when he looked up one day and Faramir no longer turned to his father for approval but to the wizard? Please talk me out of this! Faramir's mother died and Denethor was never the same again. It's as simple as that. From what I see, he believed in his Stewardship. He was always prepared to give his life for his people. Only Sauron could have preyed so upon his spirit. He never would have fallen victim to a Wormtongue. Redha * * *
From: Merlin the mad Sent: 3/18/2003 4:08 PM I agree that Denthor had a natural preference for Boromir, simply because Boromir doted on his father's approval and praise; and Faramir dared to disagree with the Steward, to try and alter his policies. His dislike for Gandalf is solely because of this coolness between himself and his son, which he can conveniently blame on the presence of the Wizard. MtM
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From: magpie Sent: 3/18/2003 8:11 PM There's a lot in these discussions that is stimulating. I'm definitely bouncing off ideas here, but I'm not sure I can sort them out enough to respond to each one.
I guess I reacted to Denethor as a parent also. I think parents do have unique relationships with each of our children, in fact it would be impossible not to. And much of what is different may look like favoritism. But, I'd be hard pressed to find a good excuse for a parent telling a child essentially, "I wish you had died instead of him. He would have done what was right. He was loyal to me." and "I will think well of you if you are successful" as he sends him off to possible death. I could only explain this behavior on a truly 'evil' person, which Denethor apparently was not viewed as. So I must attribute it to a darkness of spirit brought on by gazing in the palantir and subjecting himself to Sauron's influence, the death of his son, and the dire straits of his country. Gandalf did say, "[Denethor] loved [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike. So perhaps Redha, you have a point. Linda, I'm not sure what you meant by "Faramir represents the return of the king". How does he represent the return? Perhaps if I went back and reread I see it, but I'll take the easier way by asking. Did Denethor know that Thorongil was Aragorn was Isildur's heir? Did he know Aragorn was coming? And even if he knew that Aragorn, Isildur's heir was coming, what did Faramir have to do with that? I agree that this triad of father and sons is one of the most fascinating elements in the books for me. Magpie
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From: LindaS Sent: 3/18/2003 11:18 PM Hello, magpie. In the chapter "The Siege of Gondor" Tolkien compares Faramir to Aragorn: "Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed ... one of the Kings of Men born into a later time..." Later in this same chapter, Denethor actually upbraids Faramir for his "kingliness": "I know you well. Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old ... This suggests to me that Faramir also represents the coming of the king in Denethor's eyes. Faramir will take his father's place as Steward and will end the Stewardship in favor of Aragorn. In a sense, Denethor will be doubly displaced. Gandalf tells Pippin after their first meeting with Denethor that Denethor, after speaking to Pippin, now knows that the Fellowship was lead by someone other than Boromir because this person "outranked" Boromir. This Denethor deduces is someone who might claim the kingship. * * *
From: LindaS Sent: 3/18/2003 11:49 PM Hi, Redha! We are handicapped in that we never see Boromir and his father interacting. We only see Denethor and Faramir together, but perhaps we can draw some conclusions. Denethor resents Faramir's independence, so we might conclude that Boromir was more deferential to his father than Faramir was. Denethor apparently had more respect for Boromir's single-minded concentration on the art of war, than for Faramir's interest in high learning, as he upbraids Faramir for looking to Gandalf for approval. Gandalf has had some influence on Faramir's thinking. Denethor, suspicious of all of Gandalf's activities, appears to suspect Faramir as somehow in league with Gandalf. I do think that Denethor is withholding affection from Faramir, perhaps for the reasons I have already stated in my posts. Denethor is not evil, and he is not unmindful of his duties as Steward, and has shown that he takes pride in them. (Remember Faramir talking about his father saying a Steward of great royalty would not assume the kingship even if thousands of years pass.) But a powerful man facing the loss of his power may not act as wisely as he should. Denethor biggest mistake is that he isolated himself, away from those like Gandalf and Faramir who could have offered him advise and support. Denethor hid himself away, alone with a palantir. And the whisperings of Sauron.
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 21:47:22 GMT -6
From: Questyn Sent: 3/19/2003 2:42 AM The attitude of Denethor towards Faramir is one of the things that wrenches my heart in RotK. I have taken Denethor's comment about "Faramir should've gone" to mean, "I wish Faramir were dead instead!" The irony is, with Boromir's redemptive stand for Merry & Pippin, & his change of heart towards Aragorn & the ring, Boromir would've been much more like Faramir at this stage had he lived. I think Denethor is grasping for control here, feeling so out of control over the imminent attack on Gondor. Boromir had been the tough fighter for Gondor; Faramir seemed to have other loyalties to the coming king, therefore to Gandalf's advice, etc. and Denethor couldn't take that.
As an aside -- I hope RotK movie makes Faramir more like he is in the book. My hero! * * *
From: magpie Sent: 3/19/2003 7:00 AM Linda, Thanks for your response, but I'm still a little confused. Yes, I remember that Faramir was compared to 'high nobility'. And it makes sense that Denethor could see this as well as anyone. But, it had been a long time since there had been a king. Other than the dream that Faramir and Boromir had, what reason would Denethor think (before talking to Pippin) that a king was returning? It didn't occur to me that because Faramir had a air of high nobility that Denethor would start brooding about a returning king, esp. after all those years. And why would Faramir take Denethor's place as Steward even if the king came? Fararmir is faithful to his father to a fault. He has shown no signs of usurping power. Pippin does let on that someone higher than Boromir lead the fellowship, but Denethor's attitude toward Faramir seemed already to be in place. I'm not trying to argue a point, because I don't have one! LOL, I'm just not sure if I missed something (possible, I often read/listen to the story and pick up on certain nuances to the exclusion of others) or I just interperted it differently than you. Thanks, Magpie * * *
From: LindaS Sent: 3/19/2003 9:58 AM Hi, magpie. One element to Denethor's knowledge of the return of the king is Denethor's use of the palantir, the seeing stone, which he apparently was making a great deal of use of before Gandalf's and Pippin's arrival. In the first meeting between Gandalf and Denethor, Denethor hints that he sees and knows much. (See chapter "Minas Tirith") Beregond says to Pippin later in this same chapter that Denethor ""sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future ...." (At some point Aragorn strives with Sauron through the palantir found at Isengard. Sauron might in turn have revealed this to Denethor? I suggest checking the timeline on that.) Another "sign" to Denethor of the end of the Stewardship was the broken shards of Boromir's horn that Denethor held in his lap. The horn had been carried by generations of future Stewards, and here it was broken, never to be carried again. Denethor would have understood the meaning of the broken horn. I did not mean to suggest that Faramir's character alone would have signaled to Denethor that the king was returning. Obviously, Denethor had other information. What I did mean that all that Denethor came to know made Faramir a lightening rod for Denethor's displeasure in all that was happening. Nor did I mean to suggest that Faramir would usurp the Stewardship, but would assume it after Denethor's death. But now Denethor knows that either the king returns, or the Stewardship will be assumed by his less favored son. Either way, Denethor is unhappy with the way his life will end. I hope I've made myself clearer, despite some longwindedness! Linda
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From: LindaS Sent: 3/19/2003 11:34 PM I was rereading "The Siege of Gondor" and the meeting between Faramir, Denethor and Gandalf. Denethor expresses is displeasure with Faramir and his favoritism of Boromir totally based on what he believes Boromir would have done had he found Frodo with the Ring. In response to Faramir's question "Do you wish then that our places had been exchanged" Denethor answers "Yes.... For Boromir was loyal to me ... he would have remember his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift." When Faramir reminds Denethor that it was Denethor that had sent Faramir and not Boromir out into Ithilien, Denethor responds that knowing Boromir would have brought him the Ring where Faramir would not has made that decision even worse in his eyes. It seems that Denethor sorrow over Boromir's loss is now regret over the loss of the Ring as if even Denethor's mourning has been perverted.
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From: magpie Sent: 3/20/2003 6:44 AM Linda, Yes, I think I understand your thinking now and I do agree with much of it. I'm not sure I come to the same inferences in regards to Denethor's disfunctional relationship with Faramir, but I understand how you got there. Thanks for spending so much time on it. And nothing's worth saying unless it takes a long time in saying it.
Magpie
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From: LindaS Sent: 3/20/2003 9:29 AM Magpie, remind me to go easy on the Ent-water, ok??
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From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/23/2003 7:17 AM I believe that Denethor was arrogantly prideful. From Appendix A, The Stewards, we learn that Denethor's father encouraged men of worth to enter his service. Could Denethor have felt a pang of inadequacy even then? When Thorongil (Arathorn) came, he became the beloved of Ecthelion II and the people of Gondor. He showed great prowess in battle and in counsel. Denethor knew him to be a rival. "Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives...Therefore later when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him." Is this a man who was actually looking to what was best for his country or one that wanted to hold on to power? Findulas of Dol Amroth became his wife, ("he loved her, in his fashion, more dearly than any other, unless it was the elder of the sons that she bore him") and then "withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock." Seems to me that Denethor didn't really know how to love another. Just a reaction -- Findulas seemed to be a possession rather than a love, otherwise, he would have let her go where she could be happy. According to this section of the Appendices, Boromir was "a man after the sort of King Earnur". Going back to the section previous to The Stewards, we find out that Earnur was the last king of Gondor. Before his kingship, "His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king." (Boldface my emphasis) He had several run-ins with the Witch-King, finally after the Witch-king taunted him enough (and no one could dissuade him) King Earnur fell into a trap and was never heard from again. Boromir was Denethor's champion, and worked to please his father, which fed into Denethor's pride. Faramir was Denethor's rival, being more like him, except in being prideful. Denethor knew that Faramir was a greater man than himself, and he couldn't stand the thought. It all boiled down to pride. Feel better, Redha? --DA * * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/24/2003 7:01 AM DaleAnn: When Thorongil (Arathorn) came, he became the beloved of Ecthelion II and the people of Gondor. He showed great prowess in battle and in counsel. Denethor knew him to be a rival. I believe Thorongil was ARAGORN not Arathorn. That is what the index in Unfinished Tales told me anyway. Stormrider
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From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/24/2003 7:25 AM Thanks Stormy! Of course I meant Aragorn. Where the heck did I get Arathorn? (Too much reading of the appendices, I guess.) --DA
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 21:48:44 GMT -6
I am adding Wk4, Bk5, Ch4, DISCUSSION: THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DENETHOR AND HIS SONS to Stormrider’s thread. As new information is given in this chapter, it adds a new dimension to what has already been discussed.
Compare Denethor and Boromir’s desire for the ring of power? Like Father, like son? How did Boromir fall to the lure of the ring? Are there differences between the desire of the son and of his father? Why do they desire the ring? What do they say they would do with this power? How does Gandalf counter this argument? Do you think Denethor will repent as his son, Boromir, did and be redeemed? (no spoilers, please)
And what of Faramir? Is he not also his father’s son? Why do you think he does not give into the lure of owning the Ring? How would you explain these differences between the brothers? And do you think Boromir, if he had lived and had possession of the ring, would he have brought it to his father?
Are there other characters who seem immune to the corrupting influence of this power? How do, for example, Gandalf, Aragorn and Galadriel fight off the temptation to claim the ring? Would you count Faramir in this company? Why or why not?
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 14, 2009 21:51:20 GMT -6
From: LindaS Sent: 4/7/2003 12:52 AM I would like to comment just on the reaction to the corrupting power of the Ring by the various characters you mention. Gandalf, Galadriel and Faramir seem to react to the Ring in a similar manner - they display selfawareness by articulating their own temptations and weakness, and, by so doing, seemingly, they are better able to resist. Contrast this to Boromir, who rants about what he would do with the Ring, how he would vanquish the Enemy and win glory for himself, but never sees the influence of the Ring on his desires. I would, however, that none of the characters mentioned here are "immune" to the influence of the Ring. Because they acknowledge that they can be corrupted, they are, paradoxically, saved from corruption. I do not think we ever read in Tolkien what temptation, if any, Aragorn endures. But I do believe that Tolkien was trying to demonstrate the universality of the corruption of good into evil. Linda
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From: AnnieLT Sent: 4/7/2003 7:24 AM LindaS: you are quite right that no one is "immune" to the influences of the ring although a few are able to resist the temptations. I wonder why some are more self aware than others and how, by articulating their weaknesses, are better able to resist? Annie
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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 4/7/2003 9:17 AM Maybe its a matter of humility vs. pride. Some people were unwilling to admit that they are not strong enough to resist the power of the ring and therefore, fall under its influence. Those who who were humble enough to admit their weakness were careful to avoid the ring. -- Rusco
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From: LindaS Sent: 4/7/2003 9:43 AM Rusco, I think you are right about the humility of the characters who best resist the Ring. Aragorn is one of the best examples of this. While he is aware and acknowledges his heritage and his right to claim the kingship, he takes no vainful pride in this. He acknowledges his mistakes and his shortcomings, and show deference to the authority of others. Good point! Linda
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