Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2009 12:59:03 GMT -6
Beowulf ARCHIVE: Lines 1065 to 1384
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Message 1 of 14 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/13/2002 7:21 AM
These lines of Beowulf express the theme of MOTHERHOOD and LOSS. We start out with the embedded story of Hildeburh, who loses her son, her brother, and ultimately her husband Finn and her queenship, in the battle and treachery between the Frisians and the Danes.
Then we have Wealtheow, who is in a different place in the circle of motherhood: she is the proud mother, diplomatically defending her sons from her husband's impulse to adopt Beowulf. She is in a position of strength and generosity. Her loss is yet to come. At the risk of creating 'a spoiler', I think it is important to point out that in the future, she loses one of her sons to the treachery of Hrothulf, Hrothgar's nephew. It is interesting to know this, and then re-read the lines of what she says.
And the third mother is Grendel's Mom, who has lost her son and come to revenge his death, which proves to be her undoing.
I think it would make sense to have any subsequent discussion of this theme under Anglo-Saxon women, although I realize that may provoke debate as to whether Grendel's Mom counts as a human woman or not!
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Message 2 of 14 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/13/2002 8:05 AM
For EXTRA CREDIT: look at Slade's Finnesburh Fragment, the intoduction and then the fragment itself, for more information on the battle aspect of this section about Hildeburh. (Lines 1065-1157). Also, in the Old English poem, line 6, notice the word 'graeghama' for grey-coated wolf. Call anything to mind?
Thorkel, you mentioned not being able to access Slade's site. I was wondering if your local library would let you print it out, or maybe a friend who has a computer? Perhaps you could supply the paper? A cup of good coffee or tea? It's fine to use other translations, in fact that makes this study interesting -- all the sources people are adding, but Slade's site is well organized and has a lot of good additional information.
Slade, on line 30 of the Fragment, I like the idea of bone-helm as skull. Seems too far fetched to be a shield. I also did not grasp , on line 43, "Then the hero went wounded", and the 'hero' being an anonymous wounded Frisian.
Zauber
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Message 3 of 14 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 11/14/2002 5:31 AM
Zauber, I see the origins of "Grayhame," one of Gandolf's aliases. It's interesting to me that Tolkien always spells 'grey' with an 'e', except in this case. That's the typical British spelling, 'a' being used by Americans. Maybe Amaranth and her 'grey track' through the trilogy can shed some light.
Thorkel, I would be happy to print off a hard copy of the Slade translation with notes and mail it to you. It might have to be snail mail, because it would be a very large email attachment. I could try email first. Need to check with B. Slade and see if that is OK. You wouldn't have all the hyperlinks, but I work a lot from hard copy, since that's where I write my notes.
I've been on Grandma duty, so not doing much Beowulfing this week. I did receive <em>The Beowulf Handbook</em> and there is lots of interesting stuff on women and pagans and Christians, oh my. Should have more time after Saturday.
Cheers,
CathyL
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Message 4 of 14 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/14/2002 6:42 AM
That's a very generous offer, Cathy, to print out the text for Thorkel. The Glossary can be printed out separately, in case you didn't know. My computer with the Internet is at work, therefore my rather hit-and-miss presence on the boards. (A friend is going to hook me up at home, but due to illness this event keeps getting postponed. GRRR!) So I have printed out two copies of Slade's texts, and it works very nice. One I carry with me and one stays more pristine at home. My travel copy is thoroughly annotated and marked upon, and I love it.
I hope your grandmotherly duties have been fun!
Zauber
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Message 5 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/14/2002 7:30 PM
One of the interesting aspects of this section (which, between Wealhtheow, Grendles modor, & Hildeburh, has a fairly strong 'female focus') is the use of the term ides to describe Grendel's mother (l.1261, ides aglæcwif, "lady monster-woman"; l.1353 idese onlicnæs, "in the likewise of an ides). In _Beowulf_, ides is also applied to Wealhtheow (l.619 ides helminga, "lady of the Helmings", l.1170 ides scyldinga 'lady of the Scyldings') and Hildeburh (l.1074 geomuru ides, "mournful lady", l.1116 ides gnordode, 'the lady lamented'), and also later in reference to Thryth/Modthryth/Hygd (l.1943b-44, ne bið swylc cwenlic þeaw idese to efnanne þeah ðe hio ænlicu sy, "such queenly custom is not for an ides to perform, though she be matchless"). Outside of Beowulf, ides occurs mainly (only??) in poetry, and always in a complimentary and respectful sense, often bordering on awe, used to refer to Eve in Genesis, Sarah & her Egyptian handmaiden Hagar, amongst others. It seems to be used to refer to noble women and women who possess some sort of magical powers (suggesting that noble woman possess some magic?). Outside of Old English, the cognate Old Saxon idis and Old High German itis are applied to Mary (mother of Christ), and idisi is used to refer to the spell-casting women of the Old High German 'First Merseburg Charm'. In Old Norse, the word appears as dís (pl. dísir), which Damico suggest are a 'valkyrie-reflex' (the Norse goddess Freyja is called Vana-dís, "ides/dís/goddess of the Vanir"). Damico goes on to suggest that Grendel's mother, as an ides, may represent the more terrifying side of the valkyrie-female, as may Thryth/Modthryth/Hygd (see above) in a less 'monstrous' way. [the collection of essays in New Readings on Women in Old English Literature is quite good, and would be of interest to anyone curious about the status of women in Anglo-Saxon England, and is not expensive - some used copies may be found here: dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookSearch?ph=2&tn=women+old+english&sortby=2 . The more I read, the more I think that in fact Anglo-Saxon women had a better social position (even?) than women in present-day Western cultures]
One of the criticisms of Tolkien's Beowulf essay has been that he saw Grendel's mother simply as an extension of Grendel and not particularly interesting in her own right (in accordance with his 'bipartide' analysis of the poem, e.g. rise & fall, youth & age, Grendel & dragon, &c.).
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Message 6 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/14/2002 8:26 PM
forgot to mention in this connexion that one may want to take a look at 'Charm against a sudden stitch' (available at www.heorot.dk under 'supplemental texts'), esp. ll.5-7.
--B.
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Message 7 of 14 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 11/18/2002 1:11 AM
A couple of questions for Slade or anyone familiar with the various translations of Beowulf.
Is there any edition that sticks close to the OE, (even though it will probably be the hardest to understand)? I realize there are sometimes unsurmountable difficulties in translating any language from one to another and keep the artistic intentions (if you know what I mean!). But I would like one edition like that, close to the OE.
Also, which edition keeps many of the kennings? They're so creative and inventive, and I'm disappointed that the editions I have use very few.
An odd end: I just finished reading "Threshold" by Caitlin R. Kiernan. It's heavily influenced by, and partly based on, elements of "Beowulf." Funny how things work out; I didn't know that when I picked it up.
Diana
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Message 8 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 11/18/2002 1:13 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 9 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/18/2002 2:55 AM
Diana -
My online translation is probably the most literal translation - the only one more literal might be Porter's translation (available through Anglo-Saxon Books), as he actually translates word-for-word, I mean in the same order as the Old English, which is quite confusing to be honest. My translation is instead 'half-line'-for-'half-line', meaning that I sometimes change the order of words within a half-line, but not beyond that - which was quite tricky to do and still remain half-way intelligible! Even so, my translation is surely not one of the easiest reads. Chickering's translation is also fairly literal, but is neither word-for-word nor 'half-line'-for-'half-line' or anything of that sort. Also, my edition keeps all of the kennings, glossing each one in the notes for clarity.
--B.
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Message 10 of 14 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 11/24/2002 3:51 AM
Slade, many thanks! Porter's translation is exactly what I'm looking for. I've been fooling around with some Learn Old English websites, and it's not quite as difficult as I'd expected (so far, anyway; no doubt I'll be singing a different tune in the very near future!), and that's why I want a word-for-word translation. Yeah, I figured it'll read horribly, but I have Heaney's, yours and Raffel's (which I'm not that crazy about) for reading the story.
Diana
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Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/26/2002 9:47 AM
On kennings:
Syd told me that he just finished his page on kennings at Jagular-Beowulf. It's a very informative page on Beowulf-kennings, - have a dekko at:
www.jagular.com/beowulf/kennings.shtml
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Message 12 of 14 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/22/2002 3:38 PM
The Dane who's killed by Grendel's mama, Hrothgar's right-hand man, is called Aeschere. Turns out it's a word in OE meaning "army of spearmen." Seems an odd name for one who's described mainly as a counselor! I'm not sure what to make of it. Any thoughts?
Diana
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Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 12/22/2002 6:58 PM
AEschere is actually fairly representative of Old English names, Hrothgar's name most likely means 'Glory-Spear', Ecgtheow's name means 'Servant of the Sword' - the women's names too are often like this, e.g. Hildeburh means something like 'War-Castle' ('Battle-burgh?').
In the list of characters on heorot.dk I have the literal meanings for all of the names in the poem: www.heorot.dk/dramatis.html
A-S names are usually quite colourful - one of the ones I like a lot which has actually survived into Modern English is Alfred, < OE Aelf-red, meaning literally something like 'Elf-Counsel' or 'Elf-Counseled' ('Elf-Read').
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Message 14 of 14 in Discussion
From: Gythia
Sent: 12/23/2002 12:36 PM
On the subject of the idises, or disir:
Here is the entry on the Disir from my book, Asatru For Beginners:
The disir are female ancestral spirits. They have a protective role toward living members of their family, and they can be consulted by magic, meditation, or ritual, to ask their advice. As an example, Thorgerdhr Holgabrudhr was the Dis of the family of Earl Hakon Sigurdarson, ruler of Norway. Your Disir are your own female ancestors. Freya's title Vanadis means Mother of the Vanir.
In relation to Grendel's mother, she does indeed have a protective role toward her son, and can be seen as a spirit of vengeance. Since Grendel is evil, that which protects Grendel is also evil, but the idea of a mother protecting/avenging her child is not evil in and of itself. The idea of the idis can therefore act for evil or for good depending on the person to whom the spirit offers her protection. When applied to living human women, idis can simply mean woman but with an overtone of power. That power can be social, as when applied to a noble woman, or magical.
_________________________________________
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Message 1 of 14 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/13/2002 7:21 AM
These lines of Beowulf express the theme of MOTHERHOOD and LOSS. We start out with the embedded story of Hildeburh, who loses her son, her brother, and ultimately her husband Finn and her queenship, in the battle and treachery between the Frisians and the Danes.
Then we have Wealtheow, who is in a different place in the circle of motherhood: she is the proud mother, diplomatically defending her sons from her husband's impulse to adopt Beowulf. She is in a position of strength and generosity. Her loss is yet to come. At the risk of creating 'a spoiler', I think it is important to point out that in the future, she loses one of her sons to the treachery of Hrothulf, Hrothgar's nephew. It is interesting to know this, and then re-read the lines of what she says.
And the third mother is Grendel's Mom, who has lost her son and come to revenge his death, which proves to be her undoing.
I think it would make sense to have any subsequent discussion of this theme under Anglo-Saxon women, although I realize that may provoke debate as to whether Grendel's Mom counts as a human woman or not!
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 14 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/13/2002 8:05 AM
For EXTRA CREDIT: look at Slade's Finnesburh Fragment, the intoduction and then the fragment itself, for more information on the battle aspect of this section about Hildeburh. (Lines 1065-1157). Also, in the Old English poem, line 6, notice the word 'graeghama' for grey-coated wolf. Call anything to mind?
Thorkel, you mentioned not being able to access Slade's site. I was wondering if your local library would let you print it out, or maybe a friend who has a computer? Perhaps you could supply the paper? A cup of good coffee or tea? It's fine to use other translations, in fact that makes this study interesting -- all the sources people are adding, but Slade's site is well organized and has a lot of good additional information.
Slade, on line 30 of the Fragment, I like the idea of bone-helm as skull. Seems too far fetched to be a shield. I also did not grasp , on line 43, "Then the hero went wounded", and the 'hero' being an anonymous wounded Frisian.
Zauber
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 14 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 11/14/2002 5:31 AM
Zauber, I see the origins of "Grayhame," one of Gandolf's aliases. It's interesting to me that Tolkien always spells 'grey' with an 'e', except in this case. That's the typical British spelling, 'a' being used by Americans. Maybe Amaranth and her 'grey track' through the trilogy can shed some light.
Thorkel, I would be happy to print off a hard copy of the Slade translation with notes and mail it to you. It might have to be snail mail, because it would be a very large email attachment. I could try email first. Need to check with B. Slade and see if that is OK. You wouldn't have all the hyperlinks, but I work a lot from hard copy, since that's where I write my notes.
I've been on Grandma duty, so not doing much Beowulfing this week. I did receive <em>The Beowulf Handbook</em> and there is lots of interesting stuff on women and pagans and Christians, oh my. Should have more time after Saturday.
Cheers,
CathyL
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 14 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/14/2002 6:42 AM
That's a very generous offer, Cathy, to print out the text for Thorkel. The Glossary can be printed out separately, in case you didn't know. My computer with the Internet is at work, therefore my rather hit-and-miss presence on the boards. (A friend is going to hook me up at home, but due to illness this event keeps getting postponed. GRRR!) So I have printed out two copies of Slade's texts, and it works very nice. One I carry with me and one stays more pristine at home. My travel copy is thoroughly annotated and marked upon, and I love it.
I hope your grandmotherly duties have been fun!
Zauber
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/14/2002 7:30 PM
One of the interesting aspects of this section (which, between Wealhtheow, Grendles modor, & Hildeburh, has a fairly strong 'female focus') is the use of the term ides to describe Grendel's mother (l.1261, ides aglæcwif, "lady monster-woman"; l.1353 idese onlicnæs, "in the likewise of an ides). In _Beowulf_, ides is also applied to Wealhtheow (l.619 ides helminga, "lady of the Helmings", l.1170 ides scyldinga 'lady of the Scyldings') and Hildeburh (l.1074 geomuru ides, "mournful lady", l.1116 ides gnordode, 'the lady lamented'), and also later in reference to Thryth/Modthryth/Hygd (l.1943b-44, ne bið swylc cwenlic þeaw idese to efnanne þeah ðe hio ænlicu sy, "such queenly custom is not for an ides to perform, though she be matchless"). Outside of Beowulf, ides occurs mainly (only??) in poetry, and always in a complimentary and respectful sense, often bordering on awe, used to refer to Eve in Genesis, Sarah & her Egyptian handmaiden Hagar, amongst others. It seems to be used to refer to noble women and women who possess some sort of magical powers (suggesting that noble woman possess some magic?). Outside of Old English, the cognate Old Saxon idis and Old High German itis are applied to Mary (mother of Christ), and idisi is used to refer to the spell-casting women of the Old High German 'First Merseburg Charm'. In Old Norse, the word appears as dís (pl. dísir), which Damico suggest are a 'valkyrie-reflex' (the Norse goddess Freyja is called Vana-dís, "ides/dís/goddess of the Vanir"). Damico goes on to suggest that Grendel's mother, as an ides, may represent the more terrifying side of the valkyrie-female, as may Thryth/Modthryth/Hygd (see above) in a less 'monstrous' way. [the collection of essays in New Readings on Women in Old English Literature is quite good, and would be of interest to anyone curious about the status of women in Anglo-Saxon England, and is not expensive - some used copies may be found here: dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookSearch?ph=2&tn=women+old+english&sortby=2 . The more I read, the more I think that in fact Anglo-Saxon women had a better social position (even?) than women in present-day Western cultures]
One of the criticisms of Tolkien's Beowulf essay has been that he saw Grendel's mother simply as an extension of Grendel and not particularly interesting in her own right (in accordance with his 'bipartide' analysis of the poem, e.g. rise & fall, youth & age, Grendel & dragon, &c.).
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/14/2002 8:26 PM
forgot to mention in this connexion that one may want to take a look at 'Charm against a sudden stitch' (available at www.heorot.dk under 'supplemental texts'), esp. ll.5-7.
--B.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 14 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 11/18/2002 1:11 AM
A couple of questions for Slade or anyone familiar with the various translations of Beowulf.
Is there any edition that sticks close to the OE, (even though it will probably be the hardest to understand)? I realize there are sometimes unsurmountable difficulties in translating any language from one to another and keep the artistic intentions (if you know what I mean!). But I would like one edition like that, close to the OE.
Also, which edition keeps many of the kennings? They're so creative and inventive, and I'm disappointed that the editions I have use very few.
An odd end: I just finished reading "Threshold" by Caitlin R. Kiernan. It's heavily influenced by, and partly based on, elements of "Beowulf." Funny how things work out; I didn't know that when I picked it up.
Diana
____________________________________________
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Message 8 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 11/18/2002 1:13 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
_____________________________________________
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Message 9 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/18/2002 2:55 AM
Diana -
My online translation is probably the most literal translation - the only one more literal might be Porter's translation (available through Anglo-Saxon Books), as he actually translates word-for-word, I mean in the same order as the Old English, which is quite confusing to be honest. My translation is instead 'half-line'-for-'half-line', meaning that I sometimes change the order of words within a half-line, but not beyond that - which was quite tricky to do and still remain half-way intelligible! Even so, my translation is surely not one of the easiest reads. Chickering's translation is also fairly literal, but is neither word-for-word nor 'half-line'-for-'half-line' or anything of that sort. Also, my edition keeps all of the kennings, glossing each one in the notes for clarity.
--B.
______________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 14 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 11/24/2002 3:51 AM
Slade, many thanks! Porter's translation is exactly what I'm looking for. I've been fooling around with some Learn Old English websites, and it's not quite as difficult as I'd expected (so far, anyway; no doubt I'll be singing a different tune in the very near future!), and that's why I want a word-for-word translation. Yeah, I figured it'll read horribly, but I have Heaney's, yours and Raffel's (which I'm not that crazy about) for reading the story.
Diana
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/26/2002 9:47 AM
On kennings:
Syd told me that he just finished his page on kennings at Jagular-Beowulf. It's a very informative page on Beowulf-kennings, - have a dekko at:
www.jagular.com/beowulf/kennings.shtml
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 14 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/22/2002 3:38 PM
The Dane who's killed by Grendel's mama, Hrothgar's right-hand man, is called Aeschere. Turns out it's a word in OE meaning "army of spearmen." Seems an odd name for one who's described mainly as a counselor! I'm not sure what to make of it. Any thoughts?
Diana
________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 12/22/2002 6:58 PM
AEschere is actually fairly representative of Old English names, Hrothgar's name most likely means 'Glory-Spear', Ecgtheow's name means 'Servant of the Sword' - the women's names too are often like this, e.g. Hildeburh means something like 'War-Castle' ('Battle-burgh?').
In the list of characters on heorot.dk I have the literal meanings for all of the names in the poem: www.heorot.dk/dramatis.html
A-S names are usually quite colourful - one of the ones I like a lot which has actually survived into Modern English is Alfred, < OE Aelf-red, meaning literally something like 'Elf-Counsel' or 'Elf-Counseled' ('Elf-Read').
________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 14 in Discussion
From: Gythia
Sent: 12/23/2002 12:36 PM
On the subject of the idises, or disir:
Here is the entry on the Disir from my book, Asatru For Beginners:
The disir are female ancestral spirits. They have a protective role toward living members of their family, and they can be consulted by magic, meditation, or ritual, to ask their advice. As an example, Thorgerdhr Holgabrudhr was the Dis of the family of Earl Hakon Sigurdarson, ruler of Norway. Your Disir are your own female ancestors. Freya's title Vanadis means Mother of the Vanir.
In relation to Grendel's mother, she does indeed have a protective role toward her son, and can be seen as a spirit of vengeance. Since Grendel is evil, that which protects Grendel is also evil, but the idea of a mother protecting/avenging her child is not evil in and of itself. The idea of the idis can therefore act for evil or for good depending on the person to whom the spirit offers her protection. When applied to living human women, idis can simply mean woman but with an overtone of power. That power can be social, as when applied to a noble woman, or magical.