Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2009 13:43:16 GMT -6
Beowulf ARCHIVE: Lines 1385 to 1819
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Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/18/2002 11:26 AM
Beowulf starts this section by declaring "it is better for everyone that he his friend avenge, than he mourn over-much." There are other comments about Death present throughout this story, and I wonder if people are noticing. Any comments regarding the Anglo-Saxon attitude twoards death, as expressed in Beowulf?
I have also added some comments about this section, under "Warrior Ethic and Weapons".
Zauber
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Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/20/2002 1:24 AM
On a different topic: note the (reversed) sexual imagery in the battle between Beowulf & Grendel's Mother.
_____________________________________________
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Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/21/2002 12:32 PM
I'm assuming you mean lines 1539- on, and can see the struggle as 'reversed sexual imagery', but wonder what you make of it.
Zauber
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Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/22/2002 8:42 AM
I think it's meant to be a symbolic attempt to rape Beowulf:
Grendel's mother clutches Beowulf against herself (l.1544b-him togeanes feng), then throws him to the ground and straddles him (l.1547a-ofsæt þa þone selegyst), draws her seax-dagger and attempts to 'penetrate' him (l.1551b-Beowulf's armour withstands the ingang 'penetration'). There isn't anything erotic about it at all - it seems to me to capture the sense of attempted rape in which all actual sexuality is removed, just the violence of rape - which in this case is blatantly homicidal, as 'penetration' would mean death.
I'm not sure of the purpose of the scene entirely, other than the horror it produces, though I'm sure 'feminist' criticism, amongst other approaches, could offer some interpretations.
--B.
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Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/22/2002 12:31 PM
Two things strike me immediately: 1) if Beowulf had recently killed my son, I'd attack him any way possible, and if there was a way to humiliate him or show disrespect before killing him, you bet I'd do it!
And, from the author's point of view, he has used the term for 'human woman' to apply to Mom in this tale; but Mom (when we see her) is quite violent and "unladylike". Perhaps this scene is to point out this contradiction, and to imply a tad high level of testosterone present in her blood stream, to make her seem more monsterous.
Zauber
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Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 11/22/2002 2:53 PM
Just supposing of course however...
Maybe this is how Grendel came to be, the stealing of the seed/rape of a hero. It strikes me as this motive might be seen in the Aurthurian ledgend in what Morgana did to have Modred. So perhaps she saw chance to have a greater son to provide for her.
Just musing.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_________________________________________________
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Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/26/2002 11:39 AM
Grendel's Ma & Beowulf by Charles Keeping (for Kevin Crossley-Holland's Beowulf [Oxford Uni. Press, 1982) pg. 31):
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/26/2002 12:52 PM
So it looks like we can compile the necessary elements for another movie: "Grendel's Little Brother". We've got the plot, borrowed from Arthur, and the costume design for Mom, from Charles Keeping!
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/27/2002 1:11 PM
New Beowulf artwork page:
www.heorot.dk/beowulf-art.html
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/2/2002 8:54 AM
WOW! You've been busy! Very nice addition to your site, and I got a kick out of seeing how different artist's conceive of Grendel and Mom so differently.
Then I wandered around looking at the comics and considering a purchase. Maybe I'll give them to myself for Christmas!
Thanks for inviting Syd Allen to join us; the more the merrier and it's great to have experts available.
Zauber
_______________________________________________
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Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/2/2002 9:00 AM
P.S., I printed out the Brian Froude illustration of Grendel, as I liked it best. Real scarey. I did notice that this Grendel has pointed ears! Now, that could open up entirely new realms as to the Grendel family origins! Was the family name Grendelf perhaps?
Zauber
________________________________________________
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Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 1/31/2003 5:00 PM
In Heaney's edition, Line 1641-3 includes: "fourteen Geats in fine fettle...in a delighted throng around their leader [Beowulf]." When Beowulf set out to help Hrothgar and the Scyldings, he brought 14 Geats with him. Here's the problem. Around line 740, one of the Geats was killed by Grendel. So why are there still 14?
Moving along . . .
Line 1689-90 talks about "how war first came into the world / and the flood destroyed the tribe of giants." I thought this might be about Noah. But I don't remember any giants mentioned in the Bible. Could this be a reference to the Norse flood early on in their mythology? It was Odin, Vili and Ve against Ymir and the Frost Giants. Any ideas?
This is so sloppy. In Heaney's version (and this seems to be correct), in lines 1807-12, Beowulf gives Hrunting back to Unferth. In Raffel's version, Unferth presents it to Beowulf. That doesn't even make sense!
Diana
____________________________________________________
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Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 2/4/2003 2:37 AM
On numbers - at ll.205-9
Hæfde se góda Géata léoda
cempan gecorone þára þe hé cénoste
he findan mihte· fíftýna sum
sundwudu sóhte· secg wísade
lagucræftig mon landgemyrcu.
The worthy one had, from the Geatish peoples,
chosen champions, those who were the boldest
could find; fifteen together,
they sought the sea-wood, he led the warriors,
that sea-skilled man, to the boundary of the shore.
'fifteen together' seems ambiguous between Beo's chosing 15 warriors, and his choosing 14 warriors and he himself making the 15th. I admit assumed the 2nd reading myself (I don't recall how Heaney translates). But if one wants to make the numbers add up, I suppose the 1st reading must be correct. But the poet may not have been as concerned about the maths as other factors. For at l.1643:
frome fyrdhwate féowertýne
brave army-keen fourteen
the verse would be defective due to lack of alliteration if the poet used 'thirteen' instead...
On giants and flooding: there is a possible Biblical source for this, and there is much criticism which works to derive the source of 'giants killed by flood' from mediaeval interpretations of Genesis. Here's my note for l.107 which gives a brief account of this line of interpretation:
The story connecting Cain to evil giants seems to derive from a tradition established by the apocryphal Book of Enoch and early Jewish and Christian interpretations of the Book of Genesis : 'That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they choose' (6:2); 'There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown' (6:4); 'And God saw that the wickeness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (6:5). Though giants (OE. eotenas ; ON. jötnar ) are also part of the Germanic tradition, as is their enmity towards humankind. See also n. 1689-1700 below.
The basic idea is that mediaeval interpreters of the Bible linked the notion of the interbreeding of men & giants of Gen. 6:2 & 6:4 with God's wrath at 6:5 (which is sensible, considering their 'textual proximity').
But I too think that the major source, if not the sole source, of the 'flood killing giants' motif is Germanic, as preserved in the Eddas. Here's my note on this:
The hilt of the sword seems to have a pictorial representation of the destruction of the giants. This is typically interpreted as the destruction of the race of Cain by the Flood (see n. 107 above) and certainly there appears to be an element of that Biblical interpretation here. However, a more direct reference (see Schneider pg. 170-1 for a similar argument) might be found in the 'creation hymns' of the Edda (the first three quotes are from the Elder Edda):
Völuspá en skamma 5 : 'jötnar allir / frá Ymi Komnir' ("all etins ('giants') descend from Ymir")
Vafþrúðnismál 21 : 'Ór Ymis holdi / vas jörð of sköpud, / en ór beinum björg, / himinn ór hausi / ens hrímkalda jötuns, / en ór sveita sær' ("Of Ymir's flesh the earth was shaped, the barren hills of his bones; and of his skull the sky was shaped, of his blood the briny sea")
Völuspá 3-4 : 'Ar vas alda / þars Ymir byggði, /vasa sandr né sær, / né svalar unnir; / jörð fansk æva / né upphiminn; / gap vas Ginnunga, / en gras hvergi. / Áðr Bors synir / bjöðum of ypðu, / þeir es Miðgarð / mæran skópu; / sól skein sunnan / á salar steina; / þá vas grund gróin / grœnum lauki' ("In earliest times did Ymir live: was nor sea nor land nor salty waves, neither earth was there nor upper heaven, but a gaping nothing, and green things nowhere. Was the land then lifted aloft by Bur's sons [Óthin, Vili & Vé] who made Mithgarth, the matchless earth; shone from the south the sun on dry land, on the ground then grew the greensward soft")
The Younger Edda has a clearer reference to the deeds of Bur's son: ' Bor's sons killed the giant Ymir. And he fell, so much blood flowed from his wounds that with it they drowned all the race of frost-giants, except that one escaped with his household. Giants call him Bergelmir' (Snorri, Gylf*ginning, p.5-7, [emphasis mine]).
But the only other critic I have seen make this argument is the late Herr Prof. Dr. Schneider, the eminent German critic of Beowulf.
My idea -- to be presented in my paper on 'Germanic sruti & Christian smrti in Beowulf' -- is that such elements of Beo. owe their existence to Germanic sources, though they may be supplemented/reinforced by borrowed Christian mythography.
On the Raffel trans. - I've never read it. But Beowulf certainly returns Hrunting to (H)Unferth. Beowulf himself gives a sword to the coast-guard, and Hrothgar gives Beowulf a sword (but not Hrunting, which is Unferth's) - perhaps Raffel got confused by these?
cheers,
B.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/18/2002 11:26 AM
Beowulf starts this section by declaring "it is better for everyone that he his friend avenge, than he mourn over-much." There are other comments about Death present throughout this story, and I wonder if people are noticing. Any comments regarding the Anglo-Saxon attitude twoards death, as expressed in Beowulf?
I have also added some comments about this section, under "Warrior Ethic and Weapons".
Zauber
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/20/2002 1:24 AM
On a different topic: note the (reversed) sexual imagery in the battle between Beowulf & Grendel's Mother.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/21/2002 12:32 PM
I'm assuming you mean lines 1539- on, and can see the struggle as 'reversed sexual imagery', but wonder what you make of it.
Zauber
____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/22/2002 8:42 AM
I think it's meant to be a symbolic attempt to rape Beowulf:
Grendel's mother clutches Beowulf against herself (l.1544b-him togeanes feng), then throws him to the ground and straddles him (l.1547a-ofsæt þa þone selegyst), draws her seax-dagger and attempts to 'penetrate' him (l.1551b-Beowulf's armour withstands the ingang 'penetration'). There isn't anything erotic about it at all - it seems to me to capture the sense of attempted rape in which all actual sexuality is removed, just the violence of rape - which in this case is blatantly homicidal, as 'penetration' would mean death.
I'm not sure of the purpose of the scene entirely, other than the horror it produces, though I'm sure 'feminist' criticism, amongst other approaches, could offer some interpretations.
--B.
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/22/2002 12:31 PM
Two things strike me immediately: 1) if Beowulf had recently killed my son, I'd attack him any way possible, and if there was a way to humiliate him or show disrespect before killing him, you bet I'd do it!
And, from the author's point of view, he has used the term for 'human woman' to apply to Mom in this tale; but Mom (when we see her) is quite violent and "unladylike". Perhaps this scene is to point out this contradiction, and to imply a tad high level of testosterone present in her blood stream, to make her seem more monsterous.
Zauber
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 11/22/2002 2:53 PM
Just supposing of course however...
Maybe this is how Grendel came to be, the stealing of the seed/rape of a hero. It strikes me as this motive might be seen in the Aurthurian ledgend in what Morgana did to have Modred. So perhaps she saw chance to have a greater son to provide for her.
Just musing.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/26/2002 11:39 AM
Grendel's Ma & Beowulf by Charles Keeping (for Kevin Crossley-Holland's Beowulf [Oxford Uni. Press, 1982) pg. 31):
I think this drawing (for a children's version
of Beowulf!!) fits in with the interpretation(s) above.
of Beowulf!!) fits in with the interpretation(s) above.
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/26/2002 12:52 PM
So it looks like we can compile the necessary elements for another movie: "Grendel's Little Brother". We've got the plot, borrowed from Arthur, and the costume design for Mom, from Charles Keeping!
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/27/2002 1:11 PM
New Beowulf artwork page:
www.heorot.dk/beowulf-art.html
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/2/2002 8:54 AM
WOW! You've been busy! Very nice addition to your site, and I got a kick out of seeing how different artist's conceive of Grendel and Mom so differently.
Then I wandered around looking at the comics and considering a purchase. Maybe I'll give them to myself for Christmas!
Thanks for inviting Syd Allen to join us; the more the merrier and it's great to have experts available.
Zauber
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/2/2002 9:00 AM
P.S., I printed out the Brian Froude illustration of Grendel, as I liked it best. Real scarey. I did notice that this Grendel has pointed ears! Now, that could open up entirely new realms as to the Grendel family origins! Was the family name Grendelf perhaps?
Zauber
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 1/31/2003 5:00 PM
In Heaney's edition, Line 1641-3 includes: "fourteen Geats in fine fettle...in a delighted throng around their leader [Beowulf]." When Beowulf set out to help Hrothgar and the Scyldings, he brought 14 Geats with him. Here's the problem. Around line 740, one of the Geats was killed by Grendel. So why are there still 14?
Moving along . . .
Line 1689-90 talks about "how war first came into the world / and the flood destroyed the tribe of giants." I thought this might be about Noah. But I don't remember any giants mentioned in the Bible. Could this be a reference to the Norse flood early on in their mythology? It was Odin, Vili and Ve against Ymir and the Frost Giants. Any ideas?
This is so sloppy. In Heaney's version (and this seems to be correct), in lines 1807-12, Beowulf gives Hrunting back to Unferth. In Raffel's version, Unferth presents it to Beowulf. That doesn't even make sense!
Diana
____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 2/4/2003 2:37 AM
On numbers - at ll.205-9
Hæfde se góda Géata léoda
cempan gecorone þára þe hé cénoste
he findan mihte· fíftýna sum
sundwudu sóhte· secg wísade
lagucræftig mon landgemyrcu.
The worthy one had, from the Geatish peoples,
chosen champions, those who were the boldest
could find; fifteen together,
they sought the sea-wood, he led the warriors,
that sea-skilled man, to the boundary of the shore.
'fifteen together' seems ambiguous between Beo's chosing 15 warriors, and his choosing 14 warriors and he himself making the 15th. I admit assumed the 2nd reading myself (I don't recall how Heaney translates). But if one wants to make the numbers add up, I suppose the 1st reading must be correct. But the poet may not have been as concerned about the maths as other factors. For at l.1643:
frome fyrdhwate féowertýne
brave army-keen fourteen
the verse would be defective due to lack of alliteration if the poet used 'thirteen' instead...
On giants and flooding: there is a possible Biblical source for this, and there is much criticism which works to derive the source of 'giants killed by flood' from mediaeval interpretations of Genesis. Here's my note for l.107 which gives a brief account of this line of interpretation:
The story connecting Cain to evil giants seems to derive from a tradition established by the apocryphal Book of Enoch and early Jewish and Christian interpretations of the Book of Genesis : 'That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they choose' (6:2); 'There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown' (6:4); 'And God saw that the wickeness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (6:5). Though giants (OE. eotenas ; ON. jötnar ) are also part of the Germanic tradition, as is their enmity towards humankind. See also n. 1689-1700 below.
The basic idea is that mediaeval interpreters of the Bible linked the notion of the interbreeding of men & giants of Gen. 6:2 & 6:4 with God's wrath at 6:5 (which is sensible, considering their 'textual proximity').
But I too think that the major source, if not the sole source, of the 'flood killing giants' motif is Germanic, as preserved in the Eddas. Here's my note on this:
The hilt of the sword seems to have a pictorial representation of the destruction of the giants. This is typically interpreted as the destruction of the race of Cain by the Flood (see n. 107 above) and certainly there appears to be an element of that Biblical interpretation here. However, a more direct reference (see Schneider pg. 170-1 for a similar argument) might be found in the 'creation hymns' of the Edda (the first three quotes are from the Elder Edda):
Völuspá en skamma 5 : 'jötnar allir / frá Ymi Komnir' ("all etins ('giants') descend from Ymir")
Vafþrúðnismál 21 : 'Ór Ymis holdi / vas jörð of sköpud, / en ór beinum björg, / himinn ór hausi / ens hrímkalda jötuns, / en ór sveita sær' ("Of Ymir's flesh the earth was shaped, the barren hills of his bones; and of his skull the sky was shaped, of his blood the briny sea")
Völuspá 3-4 : 'Ar vas alda / þars Ymir byggði, /vasa sandr né sær, / né svalar unnir; / jörð fansk æva / né upphiminn; / gap vas Ginnunga, / en gras hvergi. / Áðr Bors synir / bjöðum of ypðu, / þeir es Miðgarð / mæran skópu; / sól skein sunnan / á salar steina; / þá vas grund gróin / grœnum lauki' ("In earliest times did Ymir live: was nor sea nor land nor salty waves, neither earth was there nor upper heaven, but a gaping nothing, and green things nowhere. Was the land then lifted aloft by Bur's sons [Óthin, Vili & Vé] who made Mithgarth, the matchless earth; shone from the south the sun on dry land, on the ground then grew the greensward soft")
The Younger Edda has a clearer reference to the deeds of Bur's son: ' Bor's sons killed the giant Ymir. And he fell, so much blood flowed from his wounds that with it they drowned all the race of frost-giants, except that one escaped with his household. Giants call him Bergelmir' (Snorri, Gylf*ginning, p.5-7, [emphasis mine]).
But the only other critic I have seen make this argument is the late Herr Prof. Dr. Schneider, the eminent German critic of Beowulf.
My idea -- to be presented in my paper on 'Germanic sruti & Christian smrti in Beowulf' -- is that such elements of Beo. owe their existence to Germanic sources, though they may be supplemented/reinforced by borrowed Christian mythography.
On the Raffel trans. - I've never read it. But Beowulf certainly returns Hrunting to (H)Unferth. Beowulf himself gives a sword to the coast-guard, and Hrothgar gives Beowulf a sword (but not Hrunting, which is Unferth's) - perhaps Raffel got confused by these?
cheers,
B.