Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2009 20:44:12 GMT -6
Beowulf ARCHIVE: Beowulf and Tolkien
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Message 1 of 4 in Discussion
From: Sailacel Eruvande
Sent: 6/11/2003 6:05 PM
Okay, I am writing this with trepidation--I may be totally wrong in all my ideas, so.....
Here goes:
I immediately thought of Aragorn/Strider when I read about Scyld. Especially reading the more modern version ( I read both), where he is called an orphan. In any case, he went from not important to a great leader and king.
Concerning Grendel. The poet mentioned in Beowulf sings of how God made the world and hung the heavens above and so on. In the Silmarillion, the Ainur sing praises to Eru. This theme is interrupted by Melkor, as it is interrupted by Grendel.
Melkor was exiled, as Grendel was cast away from mankind. Evil sprung from Grendel (ogres,elves, giants and spirits of the underworld). Also did evil come from
Melkor/Morgoth's dwelling place. (This is mentioned in the Silmarillion).
Lastly, did you notice the use of 'middle-earth' in Beowulf??
That is all I have to say for now. I hope it wasn't too bad and it made some sense.
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Message 2 of 4 in Discussion
From: Storrmrider
Sent: 6/11/2003 6:51 PM
Sailacel:
Not having read Beowulf myself nor having participated in this study either, I want to say that your first attempt to post on a study and to point out the similarities in Tolkien and Beowulf makes perfect sense and was very well written.
The few things that I have read on this study do look very interesting and someday I would like to read Beowulf and then really go thru this study.
I hope you take a look at the other studies that we have going and join in on those, too. I know we would all love to hear your opinions and ideas.
Stormrider
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Message 3 of 4 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 6/17/2003 10:00 AM
Sailacel,
As a very sporadic participant in the Beowulf study, my guess is you have read more of it than I have. I always mean to get back to it, as I see a wonderful opportunity to understand the text with not only Zauber's excellent research and presentation but also participation from the translator himself. I do think the reference to middle earth was purposeful - somewhere I have heard it explained that "middle earth" in Beowulf referred to the land between the northern ice and the ocean, i.e. Europe and the British Isles, which roughly corresponds to Tolkien's Middle Earth. Can someone expound upon my clumsy explanation?
Regards,
Sparrow
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Message 4 of 4 in Discussion
From: Kendal
Sent: 8/17/2003 8:25 PM
One of my pet peeves with Tolkien is his use of conservative stereotypes that seem not to allow "nobility" without a pedigree. I am trying to recall a single instance in JRRT's brand of Middle-earth where a leader actually arises from the general masses. Bard the common Bowman, becomes King of Dale, but we find, he is already descended from the "royals" of Dale and his elevation to a throne is simply a renewal of his line's ancient, kingly dignities.
Aragorn's rise to an imperial position, ruler of at least two kingdoms, is likewise an example of "renewal" of royal stance rather than a true elevation of an obscure orphan-warrior to an enthroned position.
In this sense, I do not see much to compare between Scyld and Aragorn, although this may be due to my overall ignorance of Scyld himself. Here I am somewhat at a loss because I cannot trace the line of the Scyldings beyond the eponymous figure of Scyld. Was he a "common" warrior of no high pedigree who became a king, or was he a noble by birth who then increased or renewed the power of his noble line by adding (or restoring) a regal title to its previous high status? If Scyld was of royal-noble birth, then his increased status as a kingly figure, founder of a Danish regal line, might have some direct comparison to Aragorn's situation, and might mark a source of inspiration for Tolkien -- but, was Scyld of noble descent?
Ah, I wonder if we might be allowed to view Sam's mild sort of elevation to the mayoralty of the Shire as a situation of social advancement that sees the rise of a "common" Hobbit to a position of prestige analagous to Aragorn's noble state?
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 4 in Discussion
From: Sailacel Eruvande
Sent: 6/11/2003 6:05 PM
Okay, I am writing this with trepidation--I may be totally wrong in all my ideas, so.....
Here goes:
I immediately thought of Aragorn/Strider when I read about Scyld. Especially reading the more modern version ( I read both), where he is called an orphan. In any case, he went from not important to a great leader and king.
Concerning Grendel. The poet mentioned in Beowulf sings of how God made the world and hung the heavens above and so on. In the Silmarillion, the Ainur sing praises to Eru. This theme is interrupted by Melkor, as it is interrupted by Grendel.
Melkor was exiled, as Grendel was cast away from mankind. Evil sprung from Grendel (ogres,elves, giants and spirits of the underworld). Also did evil come from
Melkor/Morgoth's dwelling place. (This is mentioned in the Silmarillion).
Lastly, did you notice the use of 'middle-earth' in Beowulf??
That is all I have to say for now. I hope it wasn't too bad and it made some sense.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 4 in Discussion
From: Storrmrider
Sent: 6/11/2003 6:51 PM
Sailacel:
Not having read Beowulf myself nor having participated in this study either, I want to say that your first attempt to post on a study and to point out the similarities in Tolkien and Beowulf makes perfect sense and was very well written.
The few things that I have read on this study do look very interesting and someday I would like to read Beowulf and then really go thru this study.
I hope you take a look at the other studies that we have going and join in on those, too. I know we would all love to hear your opinions and ideas.
Stormrider
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 4 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 6/17/2003 10:00 AM
Sailacel,
As a very sporadic participant in the Beowulf study, my guess is you have read more of it than I have. I always mean to get back to it, as I see a wonderful opportunity to understand the text with not only Zauber's excellent research and presentation but also participation from the translator himself. I do think the reference to middle earth was purposeful - somewhere I have heard it explained that "middle earth" in Beowulf referred to the land between the northern ice and the ocean, i.e. Europe and the British Isles, which roughly corresponds to Tolkien's Middle Earth. Can someone expound upon my clumsy explanation?
Regards,
Sparrow
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 4 in Discussion
From: Kendal
Sent: 8/17/2003 8:25 PM
One of my pet peeves with Tolkien is his use of conservative stereotypes that seem not to allow "nobility" without a pedigree. I am trying to recall a single instance in JRRT's brand of Middle-earth where a leader actually arises from the general masses. Bard the common Bowman, becomes King of Dale, but we find, he is already descended from the "royals" of Dale and his elevation to a throne is simply a renewal of his line's ancient, kingly dignities.
Aragorn's rise to an imperial position, ruler of at least two kingdoms, is likewise an example of "renewal" of royal stance rather than a true elevation of an obscure orphan-warrior to an enthroned position.
In this sense, I do not see much to compare between Scyld and Aragorn, although this may be due to my overall ignorance of Scyld himself. Here I am somewhat at a loss because I cannot trace the line of the Scyldings beyond the eponymous figure of Scyld. Was he a "common" warrior of no high pedigree who became a king, or was he a noble by birth who then increased or renewed the power of his noble line by adding (or restoring) a regal title to its previous high status? If Scyld was of royal-noble birth, then his increased status as a kingly figure, founder of a Danish regal line, might have some direct comparison to Aragorn's situation, and might mark a source of inspiration for Tolkien -- but, was Scyld of noble descent?
Ah, I wonder if we might be allowed to view Sam's mild sort of elevation to the mayoralty of the Shire as a situation of social advancement that sees the rise of a "common" Hobbit to a position of prestige analagous to Aragorn's noble state?