Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2009 20:59:09 GMT -6
Beowulf ARCHIVE: Beowulfian Elements in Tolkien's Works
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Message 1 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/17/2002 10:40 AM
For the people who like 'visual aides', look at:
www.jagular.com/beowulf/beowulf-hall-photo-515.shtml
There is a photo of a reconstructed hall, and a ground plan of Heorot. Does it look familiar?
During our previous Silmarillion study, we discussed the confusion of people's names -- not only did names change, but people often had multiple names. We will be running into that frequently here in Beowulf. As a sample, a few of the phrases referring to Hrothgar: defender of earls, mighty cheiftan, treasure-giver, dispenser of treasures, aged one, the shield, the helmet, the protector, the son of Half-Dane (Halfdeane).
Right off, as we start the text, we run into a theme and situation that Tolkien used in The Fellowship of the Rings. Did you spot it?
(And if you didn't, don't worry. I have no intentions of smacking anyone with a ruler).
Zauber
_________________________________________
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Message 2 of 42 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 10/19/2002 2:20 AM
The illustration of Heorot looks much like Bilbo's home at the end of "The Hobbit." Am I right? Do I win a prize?
Reply
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Message 3 of 42 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 10/19/2002 1:22 PM
Bilbo's Home and also Beorn's Hall from the Chapter "Queer Lodgings" from The Hobbit.
Stormrider
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Message 4 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/22/2002 6:15 AM
I thought it looked exactly like Beorn's house. I think Bilbo's Bag End would be much more rambly, with lots of interconnected rooms.
Beorn is so much like the Northern Berserkers, and I thought it was appropriate he lived in a house like Heorot. Good guess, but no prize Amaranth!
Zauber
_______________________________________
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Message 5 of 42 in Discussion
From: Starlight
Sent: 10/23/2002 1:27 PM
I can't believe how much Heorot resembles Beorn's Hall! It has been great to study the first lines of Beowulf and find there so many elements that Tolkien uses... this is really like a window to the past.
Well, this post has really nothing to do with Heorot, and I was unsure whether I should post in this thread or not... but here it goes: I like how the poem is introduced with the theme of inheritance. This is a subject that Tolkien widely addresses. Not only do we see inheritance in Aragorn's claims as Isildur's heir, but we also see that theme with Frodo and Bilbo, since Tolkien uses that first chapter in FotR to "pass the torch" to a new generation, just as we see in the first lines of Beowulf that deal with inheritance and genealogy.
I have also enjoyed the imagery and comparisons, and the names the poet gives to the different things, such as "sea" or "ship." I am not a native english speaker, and, believe me, it has been a bit of a struggle to understand the style of this writing, but it is all so beautiful and full of meaning, that it is truly a delight to be reading this work. Thanks for sharing your views, and hope to learn with you all!
Starlight
___________________________________________
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Message 6 of 42 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/23/2002 3:49 PM
From Cathy, daughter of Henry, wife of David,
The recitation of a male's lineage seems to be a necessary part of a person's identity. This is straight from Tolkien-- no wait, Tolkien is straight from it.
The multiple names of people are also familiar devices in Tolkien. And the treatment of Sheaf upon his death reminded me of Boromir's burial in the boat, with the weapons of his slain enemies at his feet. "Steadfast companions" are of prime importance. I know that the rings given weren't finger rings, but the naming of Sheaf as ring-giver seems like the start of an idea for JRRT.
Cathy
________________________________________
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Message 7 of 42 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/23/2002 6:47 PM
Though generally the rings given by 'ring-givers' seem to have been larger, bracelet-sized or even neck-rings, but I see no reason why finger-sized rings might not have been given as well - for the Anglo-Saxon certainly possessed finger-rings too.
--B. Slade
www.heorot.dk
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/24/2002 7:25 AM
Oh boy oh boy! What's happenning here is exactly what I was hoping would! As I worked my way through Beowulf, I kept getting so excited at seeing, over and over and over again, the elements that Tolkien had employed from Beowulf. I have marked up and scribbled all over my printed copy from Slade's web site, whenever I noticed something, and I am so gratified to see that you too are noticing things!
Starlight, I am a native English speaker, and I have had some puzzling and pondering to do with the text, to figure out what was going on. That, for me, is part of the joy of discovery, and why I was not too happy with the really 'easy' translations.
Zaube
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 42 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/26/2002 8:20 PM
At line 201 in Slade, "peoden" (I don't have the OE characters but you'll see it if you look) is translated as "chieftan." The odd looking "p" is pronounced as "th" as far as I could hear. So I think this is where Theoden of Rohan may have gotten his name.
At line 211 in Slade, "Beornas" is translated as "warriors." I don't know about making plurals in OE. Could this be the source of Beorn?
At line 298 in Slade, there is "wedermark" in English, glossed as ah, can't find it now, something "land." Sounds like a model for Riddermark.
And on the genealogy chart, the eldest Geat listed is Swerting. And of course the Swertings showed up in RotK.
So does any of this hold up?
Cathy
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Message 10 of 42 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/26/2002 8:45 PM
Cathy -
'þeoden' (as l.201) is indeed "chieftain" or "king", "leader"&c., related to 'þeod', "people".
And, simplifying a bit, both 'þ' [uppercase='Þ'] (called "thorn", the letter descending from the runic letter of the same name, which, having a sharp triangular point rather than a rounded loop, looks more like an actual thorn) and 'ð' [uppercase='Đ'] (called "eth") are pronounced as "th".
'beornas' (as l.211) in the singular is 'beorn'
'-mark' is "land" (as "Den-mark", land of the Danes). "Wedermark" (l.298) is "the land of the Weders, or Wedergeats, literally "Weather-Geats", who are of course Beowulf's people. Tolkien's 'Riddermark' may well be "land of the riders", for isn't Riddermark something to do with Rohan and the horsemen there?
-B.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/30/2002 6:42 AM
Okay class, get out your pens and your blue books.
(Wink wink).
Who in Tolkien's works does Hrothgar remind you of? Does Beowulf himself call any character to mind? What about Grendel?
What culture of Middle Earth resembles the Anglo-Saxons? Why? What elements are similar in the two cultures, one imagined and one real?
And then, the interesting part of this inquiry,how does this fictional culture differ from what we know so far about the Anglo-Saxons?
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 42 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/30/2002 8:08 AM
Zauber,
I will get back to your most interesting questions directly. I am woefully ignorant of Silmarillion knowledge, but I'm working on it. Here's my burning question.
Slade, l. 380 translation of "mundgrip" is 'grip of his hand'. So that looks like mund as an adjective is hand. Theoden died on the fields of Mundburg (the Rohirrim's term). It would be interesting if the hand connection holds because the witch king of Angmar bragged that he could not die by the hand of man and then, of course, Merry and Eowyn nailed him. But at l. 494 "handa" seems to be 'hands' and at line 655 "hond" is translated as 'hand'. So what's up?
Cheers,
Cathy
______________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 42 in Discussion
Sent: 10/30/2002 8:46 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 42 in Discussion
From: Storrmrider
Sent: 10/30/2002 3:00 PM
Oh! No! Zauber! I am so sorry! I accidentally deleted your last post! I was trying to get the screen to scroll down and it wasn't going. The posts were a bit to the right hand side of my screen and I accidentally hit the delete button! I was hoping for a "Are you sure you want to delete this?" question with a choice of yes or no! But alas! no choice was offered and your post was shot off into cyberspace trash land. I hope you remember what you had written here and can retype it.
A very sorry Stormrider
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 42 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/30/2002 9:57 PM
CathyL-
'mund' of 'mundgrip' is actually a noun. 'mundgrip', literally, 'hand-grip', is a compound like 'foot-stool' or 'tooth-brush' (technically called a tatpurusha-compound--Sanskrit again, now grammatical terminology which has been adopted by western linguists).
Yes, 'mund' is "hand", and 'hand' and 'hond' are also "hand". What's going on is two things: firstly, like all languages, OE has words which are closely synonymous, though I don't think 'mund' and 'hand' mean exactly the same thing. I think 'mund' is perhaps more metaphorical? 'mundian', a verb, means "to protect" (to be in one's hands).
Secondly, 'hond' and 'hand' both mean "hand" and are actually the same word - Old English doesn't have standardised spelling, even in a single work, sometimes not even in a single line! In general, the vowel 'a' occuring before 'n' has a tendency to be written as 'o' (which is what is going on in 'hond'), because the 'n' makes the 'a' vowel sound more like an 'o'. But all sorts of words are spelled all sorts of ways in 'Beowulf'. For instance, even Beowulf's name is not consistently spelled - sometimes it is 'beowulf', sometimes 'biowulf'. Hygelac is sometimes 'hygelac', sometimes 'higelac'. "king" is sometimes 'cyning', sometimes 'kyning'. Etc., etc.
I'm working on putting up an OE-modern Eng. glossary at heorot.dk. So far I only have up to D finished - as it takes a long time due to the nature of the glossary. In the meantime, you may also want to look at:
Bright's Anglo-Saxon Glossary (OE->NE)
cheers,
B.
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/31/2002 6:05 AM
All is forgiven, Stormrider! I usually print out these threads to peruse at my leisure, but hadn't printed that one. So that's a reminder to me! (Sort of like remembering to back up disks).
I think I was saying something to CathyL about my previous questions actually having bearing on the Hobbit and LOTR, rather than on the Silmarillion.
And that I had not noticed MUND in the text, and wondered if Mundburg was a prophetic name as Cathy proposed, or it meant something else. Then, Slade just explained about mund also meaning to protect, which is quite appropriate.
Hmm, I'm pleased I could reconstruct all that!
Slade, thanks for the additional glossary. I want (when time allows) to look up various Middle Earth place names and see what they mean in Old English. Mundburg -- to protect makes a vary satisfying connection to me. I was going to ask you if you knew of an Anglo-Saxon dictionary, and you were a step ahead of me!
Zauber
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/17/2002 10:40 AM
For the people who like 'visual aides', look at:
www.jagular.com/beowulf/beowulf-hall-photo-515.shtml
There is a photo of a reconstructed hall, and a ground plan of Heorot. Does it look familiar?
During our previous Silmarillion study, we discussed the confusion of people's names -- not only did names change, but people often had multiple names. We will be running into that frequently here in Beowulf. As a sample, a few of the phrases referring to Hrothgar: defender of earls, mighty cheiftan, treasure-giver, dispenser of treasures, aged one, the shield, the helmet, the protector, the son of Half-Dane (Halfdeane).
Right off, as we start the text, we run into a theme and situation that Tolkien used in The Fellowship of the Rings. Did you spot it?
(And if you didn't, don't worry. I have no intentions of smacking anyone with a ruler).
Zauber
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 42 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 10/19/2002 2:20 AM
The illustration of Heorot looks much like Bilbo's home at the end of "The Hobbit." Am I right? Do I win a prize?
Reply
_________________________________________
Message 3 of 42 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 10/19/2002 1:22 PM
Bilbo's Home and also Beorn's Hall from the Chapter "Queer Lodgings" from The Hobbit.
Stormrider
_________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/22/2002 6:15 AM
I thought it looked exactly like Beorn's house. I think Bilbo's Bag End would be much more rambly, with lots of interconnected rooms.
Beorn is so much like the Northern Berserkers, and I thought it was appropriate he lived in a house like Heorot. Good guess, but no prize Amaranth!
Zauber
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 42 in Discussion
From: Starlight
Sent: 10/23/2002 1:27 PM
I can't believe how much Heorot resembles Beorn's Hall! It has been great to study the first lines of Beowulf and find there so many elements that Tolkien uses... this is really like a window to the past.
Well, this post has really nothing to do with Heorot, and I was unsure whether I should post in this thread or not... but here it goes: I like how the poem is introduced with the theme of inheritance. This is a subject that Tolkien widely addresses. Not only do we see inheritance in Aragorn's claims as Isildur's heir, but we also see that theme with Frodo and Bilbo, since Tolkien uses that first chapter in FotR to "pass the torch" to a new generation, just as we see in the first lines of Beowulf that deal with inheritance and genealogy.
I have also enjoyed the imagery and comparisons, and the names the poet gives to the different things, such as "sea" or "ship." I am not a native english speaker, and, believe me, it has been a bit of a struggle to understand the style of this writing, but it is all so beautiful and full of meaning, that it is truly a delight to be reading this work. Thanks for sharing your views, and hope to learn with you all!
Starlight
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 42 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/23/2002 3:49 PM
From Cathy, daughter of Henry, wife of David,
The recitation of a male's lineage seems to be a necessary part of a person's identity. This is straight from Tolkien-- no wait, Tolkien is straight from it.
The multiple names of people are also familiar devices in Tolkien. And the treatment of Sheaf upon his death reminded me of Boromir's burial in the boat, with the weapons of his slain enemies at his feet. "Steadfast companions" are of prime importance. I know that the rings given weren't finger rings, but the naming of Sheaf as ring-giver seems like the start of an idea for JRRT.
Cathy
________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 42 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/23/2002 6:47 PM
Though generally the rings given by 'ring-givers' seem to have been larger, bracelet-sized or even neck-rings, but I see no reason why finger-sized rings might not have been given as well - for the Anglo-Saxon certainly possessed finger-rings too.
--B. Slade
www.heorot.dk
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/24/2002 7:25 AM
Oh boy oh boy! What's happenning here is exactly what I was hoping would! As I worked my way through Beowulf, I kept getting so excited at seeing, over and over and over again, the elements that Tolkien had employed from Beowulf. I have marked up and scribbled all over my printed copy from Slade's web site, whenever I noticed something, and I am so gratified to see that you too are noticing things!
Starlight, I am a native English speaker, and I have had some puzzling and pondering to do with the text, to figure out what was going on. That, for me, is part of the joy of discovery, and why I was not too happy with the really 'easy' translations.
Zaube
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 42 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/26/2002 8:20 PM
At line 201 in Slade, "peoden" (I don't have the OE characters but you'll see it if you look) is translated as "chieftan." The odd looking "p" is pronounced as "th" as far as I could hear. So I think this is where Theoden of Rohan may have gotten his name.
At line 211 in Slade, "Beornas" is translated as "warriors." I don't know about making plurals in OE. Could this be the source of Beorn?
At line 298 in Slade, there is "wedermark" in English, glossed as ah, can't find it now, something "land." Sounds like a model for Riddermark.
And on the genealogy chart, the eldest Geat listed is Swerting. And of course the Swertings showed up in RotK.
So does any of this hold up?
Cathy
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 42 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/26/2002 8:45 PM
Cathy -
'þeoden' (as l.201) is indeed "chieftain" or "king", "leader"&c., related to 'þeod', "people".
And, simplifying a bit, both 'þ' [uppercase='Þ'] (called "thorn", the letter descending from the runic letter of the same name, which, having a sharp triangular point rather than a rounded loop, looks more like an actual thorn) and 'ð' [uppercase='Đ'] (called "eth") are pronounced as "th".
'beornas' (as l.211) in the singular is 'beorn'
'-mark' is "land" (as "Den-mark", land of the Danes). "Wedermark" (l.298) is "the land of the Weders, or Wedergeats, literally "Weather-Geats", who are of course Beowulf's people. Tolkien's 'Riddermark' may well be "land of the riders", for isn't Riddermark something to do with Rohan and the horsemen there?
-B.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/30/2002 6:42 AM
Okay class, get out your pens and your blue books.
(Wink wink).
Who in Tolkien's works does Hrothgar remind you of? Does Beowulf himself call any character to mind? What about Grendel?
What culture of Middle Earth resembles the Anglo-Saxons? Why? What elements are similar in the two cultures, one imagined and one real?
And then, the interesting part of this inquiry,how does this fictional culture differ from what we know so far about the Anglo-Saxons?
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 42 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/30/2002 8:08 AM
Zauber,
I will get back to your most interesting questions directly. I am woefully ignorant of Silmarillion knowledge, but I'm working on it. Here's my burning question.
Slade, l. 380 translation of "mundgrip" is 'grip of his hand'. So that looks like mund as an adjective is hand. Theoden died on the fields of Mundburg (the Rohirrim's term). It would be interesting if the hand connection holds because the witch king of Angmar bragged that he could not die by the hand of man and then, of course, Merry and Eowyn nailed him. But at l. 494 "handa" seems to be 'hands' and at line 655 "hond" is translated as 'hand'. So what's up?
Cheers,
Cathy
______________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 42 in Discussion
Sent: 10/30/2002 8:46 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 42 in Discussion
From: Storrmrider
Sent: 10/30/2002 3:00 PM
Oh! No! Zauber! I am so sorry! I accidentally deleted your last post! I was trying to get the screen to scroll down and it wasn't going. The posts were a bit to the right hand side of my screen and I accidentally hit the delete button! I was hoping for a "Are you sure you want to delete this?" question with a choice of yes or no! But alas! no choice was offered and your post was shot off into cyberspace trash land. I hope you remember what you had written here and can retype it.
A very sorry Stormrider
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 42 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/30/2002 9:57 PM
CathyL-
'mund' of 'mundgrip' is actually a noun. 'mundgrip', literally, 'hand-grip', is a compound like 'foot-stool' or 'tooth-brush' (technically called a tatpurusha-compound--Sanskrit again, now grammatical terminology which has been adopted by western linguists).
Yes, 'mund' is "hand", and 'hand' and 'hond' are also "hand". What's going on is two things: firstly, like all languages, OE has words which are closely synonymous, though I don't think 'mund' and 'hand' mean exactly the same thing. I think 'mund' is perhaps more metaphorical? 'mundian', a verb, means "to protect" (to be in one's hands).
Secondly, 'hond' and 'hand' both mean "hand" and are actually the same word - Old English doesn't have standardised spelling, even in a single work, sometimes not even in a single line! In general, the vowel 'a' occuring before 'n' has a tendency to be written as 'o' (which is what is going on in 'hond'), because the 'n' makes the 'a' vowel sound more like an 'o'. But all sorts of words are spelled all sorts of ways in 'Beowulf'. For instance, even Beowulf's name is not consistently spelled - sometimes it is 'beowulf', sometimes 'biowulf'. Hygelac is sometimes 'hygelac', sometimes 'higelac'. "king" is sometimes 'cyning', sometimes 'kyning'. Etc., etc.
I'm working on putting up an OE-modern Eng. glossary at heorot.dk. So far I only have up to D finished - as it takes a long time due to the nature of the glossary. In the meantime, you may also want to look at:
Bright's Anglo-Saxon Glossary (OE->NE)
cheers,
B.
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 42 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/31/2002 6:05 AM
All is forgiven, Stormrider! I usually print out these threads to peruse at my leisure, but hadn't printed that one. So that's a reminder to me! (Sort of like remembering to back up disks).
I think I was saying something to CathyL about my previous questions actually having bearing on the Hobbit and LOTR, rather than on the Silmarillion.
And that I had not noticed MUND in the text, and wondered if Mundburg was a prophetic name as Cathy proposed, or it meant something else. Then, Slade just explained about mund also meaning to protect, which is quite appropriate.
Hmm, I'm pleased I could reconstruct all that!
Slade, thanks for the additional glossary. I want (when time allows) to look up various Middle Earth place names and see what they mean in Old English. Mundburg -- to protect makes a vary satisfying connection to me. I was going to ask you if you knew of an Anglo-Saxon dictionary, and you were a step ahead of me!
Zauber