CONTINUOUS DISCUSSION: The Ring in Mordor

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 5/11/2003 9:14 PM

Now that we are approaching and entering Mordor, I would like to keep this thread open as we move from chapter to chapter to discuss the Ring and its effects on Frodo and Sam and observe how it feels to them when they have it. We can also add our own thoughts and speculations about the Ring and its effects here, too.

I only ask that we keep to the current week's chapter and not skip ahead. If you would like to refer to any PAST chapters, that is fine.

At the start of each chapter we will come back to this thread and post which week and chapter we are discussing.

OK...Let's start with

Week 8, Bk 6, Ch 1 - The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Sam put the Ring on several times in this chapter and we learn through Sam's senses what it is like to wear it. What are some of Sam's observations and feelings when he is wearing The Ring?

Imagine Frodo's horror at waking up and finding himself a captive and Sam no where to be found! And to top it off, he has been stripped of everything! What thoughts do you think were running through Frodo's mind when he thought the Ring was in the enemies possession?

[Stormrider]

From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 5/12/2003 2:24 PM
First, Sam discovers that his hearing is sharpened, while his sight has become duller. He also finds out that he can understand what the Orcs are telling one another, even though he doesn't know black speech. What I find intriguing, is the fact that his sight has blurred, when putting on the Ring. The Nazgûl don't see either, they have to rely on their own, and their mounts' senses. I guess this is an effect of being in that 'shadow world'; after all the Nine have faded and reside there perpetually. But the similarity hadn't struck me when reading the Trilogy before. Still, it seems to be somewhat of a contradiction: while his servants are blind (or almost), Sauron himself manifests by means of an Eye that pierces everything. Anyhow, back to topic: when actually entering Mordor, Sam discovers that the Ring wants to lure him into putting it on, so Sauron can find it. It obviously feels that it is very near to its goal. It tries to deceive Sam, wanting to make him believe he could overcome Sauron by using the Ring against him. Luckily, our valiant Hobbit is more clever than that.

Regarding Frodo: I think he must have experienced several, some dual, feelings at that time. On the one hand, he must have felt desperate and hopeless, for he didn't know (and couldn't) that Sam had the Ring. Frodo thought he had failed and that all hope was lost. On the other hand, maybe he also felt a bit relieved, in a way: it was over now, he didn't have to bear the burden anymore, it was all out of his hands now and he couldn't do anything about it anymore. For which he probably felt sorry too, that he felt like that. I also think that he felt regret, and anger and hatred towards the Orcs, that he had lost the Ring. These feelings only concern the Ring, he must have been very worried and afraid for Sam too, since he had no idea what had happened to him.

Thinking this over, there are two possibilities, in my humble opinion: either all the emotions I mentioned above, and probably more, were struggling for the upper hand, or he may have felt indifferent about all of it, his feelings dulled by the experience. My preference goes out to the first, that he felt all this at the same time. His reaction when realizing that Sam had come to save him, seems to endorse that.

Navaer,
Alaere

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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 5/13/2003 6:46 PM
For Frodo the thought of Sauron having the Ring now must be terrifying. I know he is worried and wondering what has happened to Sam. When Frodo sees Sam he seems happy and puts the thought of the Ring aside momentarily. Then he mentions how the task is over since the Ring is lost or discovered, but Sam shows him he has the Ring and gives it back. I think having lost the Ring for awhile and then getting it back has made the powers of the Ring harder for Frodo to bear.

Desi

[Stormrider]

From: Annie2 Sent: 5/18/2003 8:23 PM

The picture was lost--it was of the Great Wheel of Fire

Wk9, Bk6, Ch2, ONGOING DISCUSSION: The Ring in Mordor

"Things are looking up," Mr. Frodo. "Haven’t you got some hope now?"

"Well no, not much, Sam," Frodo replied. "...I’m so tired. And the Ring is so heavy, Sam. And I begin to see it in my mind all the time, like a great wheel of fire."

Why would Frodo refer to the ring as a "wheel of fire?" The first thing that popped into my head was a passage from long ago in the Shire. When Gandalf tossed the ring into the fire in Bag End, no visible change came over it. And then Gandalf removed the ring with the tongs, laid it on the hearth and at once picked it up. Frodo gasped and then Gandalf handed it to Frodo announcing that the ring was cool to the touch. I could picture the flames dancing around the ring. Do you think this image popped into Frodo’s mind remembering the ring lying amongst the embers and flames? Or is he seeing something else, experiencing something else?

Throughout, Frodo feels more and more tired and without hope. Are the hopeless more susceptible to the ring’s power? Is this one of its effects? Could this be one reason that the ring had relatively little power over Sam? Because he always remained hopeful?

[Stormrider]

From: Storrmrider Sent: 5/22/2003 12:43 AM
I have a few questions to go along with Annie's thoughts on Bk6, Ch2:

Frodo and Sam continue on their journey into the Land of Mordor and make their way toward Mount Doom.

Do the Nazgûl sense The Ring is in Mordor or are they just searching for the "Great Elf in bright armour" who has escaped the Tower of Cirith Ungol?

How does Frodo react to the Nazgûl flying overhead? Does he react differently from the other times the Nazgûl have been near? Is The Ring influencing Frodo's feelings?

Is Frodo more aware of The Ring as he nears Mount Doom? Is The Ring more aware of Frodo? Is The Ring aware that it is in Mordor and nearing its master, Sauron?
Does The Ring use any tactics to reach its master, Sauron?

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From: Stormridr Sent: 5/27/2003 10:31 PM

End Game on Mount Doom by Ted Nasmith

"Copyright Ted Nasmith and HarperCollins. All Rights Reserved"

Wk 10, Bk6, Ch3 CONTINUOUS DISCUSSION: The Ring in Mordor

Does The Ring realize what Frodo and Sam are trying to do with it?
Is The Ring trying to preserve itself?
If so, how does it try to accomplish that?

After Gollum and Frodo's struggle for the Ring outside the entrance to the Sammath Naur, Sam notices that the Ring at Frodo's breast looks like a wheel of fire and out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice: "Begone and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom!"

Is this really Frodo speaking or is it the voice of the Ring using Frodo to curse Gollum?

Why would the Ring curse Gollum? It would seem to me that Gollum would have taken the Ring away from Mount Doom, saving it from destruction.

What does the Ring want?
How do you think the Ring will get what it wants by remaining in Frodo's possession as he approaches the Cracks of Doom?

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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 5/28/2003 10:31 AM
I believe that this was Frodo cursing Gollum in his anger. It is interesting that the curse apparently worked. Frodo had mentioned earlier that he could command Gollum to kill himself if Gollum broke his promise to the precious. Well, whether Frodo realized it or not -- he did.

-- Rusco

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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 6/2/2003 3:03 AM
We all know what the Ring wants; like Gandalf says: "Above all it longs to return to the hand of its master." Everything the Ring "does" is based on this. I suspect that the Ring realizes that Sam and Frodo are going to try to destroy it, but on the other hand, it feels secure enough, it doesn't really expect that they are going to succeed (and it proved to be right). From the moment it came in Mordor, it had enforced its pressure on Frodo's mind, so by the time Frodo arrived at the Crack of Doom, he didn't want to give up the Ring.

It knows that from the moment someone puts it on, Sauron will know where it is, and come to get it. Since its grasp on Frodo was growing, it knew that eventually the Hobbit would put it on, and then its goal would be achieved, because Frodo himself knows that he would never be able to defeat Sauron in person, not even while wearing the Ring (I remember him saying something like this earlier in the story, somewhere in the Morgul Vale). Once he knew where it was, it would be easy enough for Sauron to take it.

As for the curse upon Gollum: the Ring had abandoned him before, because it knew it would never be found if he stayed with this creature. Maybe that alone is enough for the Ring cursing him: it doesn't want to return ever again to the hand of someone he has abandoned already. On the other hand, I also think that Gollum could prove sneaky enough to escape Sauron if he had put his hands on the Precious again. After all, he found his ways into Mordor without Sauron knowing it twice now.

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From: Kendal Sent: 6/2/2003 6:00 AM
I wonder if Frodo is putting out a curse at all? He has some pretty shrewd "foretellings" that he makes elsewhere, like Sam's children. Maybe the Ring gave him some foresight and without really being conscious of what he was doing, Frodo accurately foretells precisely what will soon occur?