Post by Andorinha on Jan 19, 2009 11:51:21 GMT -6
gandalf, is a maiar, right?
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Message 1 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamesinginglúthiebaggins
Sent: 1/5/2004 6:40 PM
i have heard, and i believe this to be true, but is Gandalf Really a maiar?
as he said to faramir and to many people that his name was Olorin in his youth in the west, meaning Valinor. in the silmarillion the name olorin is mentioned, but it also said that his tales are accounted elsewhere. And Gandalf being a maiar would also explain why he survived after he "died' in the fellowship of the ring.
but i just want to be absolutely sure that all of this is true, before i drive myself insane with his roots!!
very *friendly* personhieB
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Message 2 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/5/2004 9:08 PM
I believe the Istari are a branch of the Maiar--at least that is what I understood from reading the chapter on the Istari in Unfinished Tales. They were sent as Emissaries by the Valar with Eru's consent when Sauron began to stir in Middle-earth. The Valar sent members of their own high order, but they were disquised as old men and were not allowed to reveal their greatness.
If you have or can get a copy of Unfinished Tales, it will tell you of their purpose and some history on them. There was the white (Saurman), the grey (Gandalf or Olórin), the brown (Radagast), and a few blue wizards of which there is not much written.
Would anyone else like to help very *friendly* personhieB with some more information on the Istari?
Stormrider
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Message 3 of 18 in Discussion
From: Fangorn
Sent: 1/6/2004 12:53 AM
Yes, Gandalf and the other Istari are Maiar. This has been well established. However one note, is that their memory and power as Maiar is somewhat diminished in ME. I think this is based on the Valar's desire to level the playing field, and allow for the rise of men. Rather than directly oppose Sauron, also a Maiar (and one of the most powerful), his duty was to lead the hosts of ME, mainly human, to oppose him.
The Balrog too, is of Maiar kind, being a minion of Morgoth. However it was a Valar call to renew Gandalf, and increase his role, when Saruman, also a Maiar, betrayed the Valar. It is interesting to note, upon Sarumans death, how his spirit looked toward the west and was denied access.
Fang
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Message 4 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/6/2004 6:16 AM
Thanks for mentioning that about Saurman's spirit looking West and being denied, Fangorn. I had forgotten about that! In Unifinished Tales, it is stated that only one Istar remained true to the purpose of the Valar and that the others did not. I wonder if and or when Radagast and the Blue Istari's spirits were vanquished whether they were denied their return, too!
Stormrider
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Message 5 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameDesi-Baggins
Sent: 1/6/2004 6:03 PM
I completely missed the part about Saurman turning toward the West and being denied. Was that in LotR or the Sil? If it was the Sil I guess I haven't made it to that part.
Desi
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Message 6 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/6/2004 6:14 PM
Desi:
It is in the Scouring of the Shire in the scene when he dies. It is actually sad to think that Saruman was denied a return to the undying lands but considering he was sent there to help mankind destroy Sauron and he partnered up with the enemy, I guess it is his just reward!
Stormrider
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Message 7 of 18 in Discussion
From: Fangorn
Sent: 1/6/2004 11:15 PM
I read UT but forgot that part. Was Radagast actually a traitor? He helped Gandalf in LOTR, so if anything I thought him to be missing in action. Can we reconcile this? What are your opinions? Was Rhadadgast a traitor or no?
Fang
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Message 8 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAlaere_Dûnhilien
Sent: 1/7/2004 2:34 AM
Radagast never allined with the evil forces, did he? He did pass Saruman's message to Gandalf that he was expected in Isengard for a talk, but I never thought that Radagast actually knew about Saruman's hidden agenda on that point. And he did send Gwaihir to free Gandalf when he was stuck on top of Orthanc. No, I'm with Fangorn on this one. He was missing in action, but not a traitor. Otherwise he too would have alined himself with the dark forces, which he never did.
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Message 9 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/7/2004 6:51 AM
Fangorn and Alaere:
No, No, No! I don't mean he was a TRAITOR! No way! He just did not really fulfill the wishes of the Valar the way that they had intended him to! He got more wrapped up with the birds and beasts of Middle-earth and did not deeply get involved in helping the peoples of ME in their fight against Sauron except for the few times that you mentioned above! UT states that only ONE Istar remained TRUE to the purpose of the Valar....completely true, that is!
Sorry to mislead you into thinking he was a traitor! He was just more or less doing his own thing!
Stormrider
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Message 10 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/7/2004 6:57 AM
and the Blue Istari faded off into the East somewhere and were not heard from after that. So that was why I was wondering whether or not the Valar would have been greatly disappointed in these Istari and would deem them unworthy of returning to the undying lands since they were not TRUE to the Valar's purpose.
Stormrider
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Message 11 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAlaere_Dûnhilien
Sent: 1/7/2004 9:00 AM
Storrmrider, I knew you didn't meant that he was a traitor, and it is very true that Gandalf eventually turned out to be the only Istari who remained true to his task. But I answered Fangorn's question because I thought it was an interesting one. Because, I believe that, if we would be very very severe about this, inactivity and forgetting about your cause could be considered treason. Denethor for example, would maybe have thought that way, at least, towards the end of his life, I mean. Sauron would most definitely have thought that way. It sort of depends on what one's views on treason are, I suppose.
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Message 12 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAirëlire
Sent: 1/7/2004 4:56 PM
Do these blue Istari have names, and wouldnt there only be two of them sent down or were there actually more then 5 Istari sent down because all i know would be Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast, and i would be deeply interested in knowing all the color rankings of Istari.
♪ Airë
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Message 13 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamesinginglúthiebaggins
Sent: 1/7/2004 5:19 PM
well, this has turned out to be an interesting conversation!! Thanks Fangorn for the info. this greatly helps me. So there were BLUE istari? i never knew that!
very *friendly* personhieB
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Message 14 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/7/2004 5:31 PM
Here are the lists of the Istari and who sponsored them or sent them to Middle-earth:
Unfinished Tales does speak of there being more sent but Christopher Tolkien has this was in the works and nothing was clearly stated or sketched out by his father. There were not other colors that I was aware of than white, grey, brown, and blue.
Stormrider
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Message 15 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAirëlire
Sent: 1/8/2004 6:43 PM
wow. thanks.
~Airelirë ♪
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Message 16 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamesinginglúthiebaggins
Sent: 1/20/2004 5:14 PM
but why BLUE, couln't it have been green?
okay blu and green are my fave colors, and why couldn't one of the blue ones be green?
THe REallY AmUSEd LuthIE baGGinS
ONe wHo is Quite AmUseDdddd.................................
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Message 17 of 18 in Discussion
From: morguiChilde
Sent: 3/15/2004 7:52 PM
Yes Gandalf and the others of the Counsel were maiar. it is mentioned that the Valar each called forth one as a representative in middle earth. They were charged to keep watch over Sauron, but not to actively get involved in the affairs of middle earth, nor to actively seek dominion over middle earth. Each saught to aid the peoples of middle earth according to the Vala they served.
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Message 18 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameOrgulas_Lostlindëion
Sent: 4/4/2004 2:05 PM
Gandalf and all the other Istari (the Wizards) were indeed Maiar, sent to aid the peoples of Middle-Earth against the power of Sauron, but only in a way of council. They were not allowed to match their own powers against Sauron's, as such a battle would be too devastating.
Saruman also was Maiar, but unlike Gandalf, he wasn't allowed to go back, as he had turned to evil in his search for power.
Orgulas
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamesinginglúthiebaggins
Sent: 1/5/2004 6:40 PM
i have heard, and i believe this to be true, but is Gandalf Really a maiar?
as he said to faramir and to many people that his name was Olorin in his youth in the west, meaning Valinor. in the silmarillion the name olorin is mentioned, but it also said that his tales are accounted elsewhere. And Gandalf being a maiar would also explain why he survived after he "died' in the fellowship of the ring.
but i just want to be absolutely sure that all of this is true, before i drive myself insane with his roots!!
very *friendly* personhieB
____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/5/2004 9:08 PM
I believe the Istari are a branch of the Maiar--at least that is what I understood from reading the chapter on the Istari in Unfinished Tales. They were sent as Emissaries by the Valar with Eru's consent when Sauron began to stir in Middle-earth. The Valar sent members of their own high order, but they were disquised as old men and were not allowed to reveal their greatness.
If you have or can get a copy of Unfinished Tales, it will tell you of their purpose and some history on them. There was the white (Saurman), the grey (Gandalf or Olórin), the brown (Radagast), and a few blue wizards of which there is not much written.
Would anyone else like to help very *friendly* personhieB with some more information on the Istari?
Stormrider
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 18 in Discussion
From: Fangorn
Sent: 1/6/2004 12:53 AM
Yes, Gandalf and the other Istari are Maiar. This has been well established. However one note, is that their memory and power as Maiar is somewhat diminished in ME. I think this is based on the Valar's desire to level the playing field, and allow for the rise of men. Rather than directly oppose Sauron, also a Maiar (and one of the most powerful), his duty was to lead the hosts of ME, mainly human, to oppose him.
The Balrog too, is of Maiar kind, being a minion of Morgoth. However it was a Valar call to renew Gandalf, and increase his role, when Saruman, also a Maiar, betrayed the Valar. It is interesting to note, upon Sarumans death, how his spirit looked toward the west and was denied access.
Fang
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/6/2004 6:16 AM
Thanks for mentioning that about Saurman's spirit looking West and being denied, Fangorn. I had forgotten about that! In Unifinished Tales, it is stated that only one Istar remained true to the purpose of the Valar and that the others did not. I wonder if and or when Radagast and the Blue Istari's spirits were vanquished whether they were denied their return, too!
Stormrider
_______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameDesi-Baggins
Sent: 1/6/2004 6:03 PM
I completely missed the part about Saurman turning toward the West and being denied. Was that in LotR or the Sil? If it was the Sil I guess I haven't made it to that part.
Desi
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/6/2004 6:14 PM
Desi:
It is in the Scouring of the Shire in the scene when he dies. It is actually sad to think that Saruman was denied a return to the undying lands but considering he was sent there to help mankind destroy Sauron and he partnered up with the enemy, I guess it is his just reward!
Stormrider
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 18 in Discussion
From: Fangorn
Sent: 1/6/2004 11:15 PM
I read UT but forgot that part. Was Radagast actually a traitor? He helped Gandalf in LOTR, so if anything I thought him to be missing in action. Can we reconcile this? What are your opinions? Was Rhadadgast a traitor or no?
Fang
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAlaere_Dûnhilien
Sent: 1/7/2004 2:34 AM
Radagast never allined with the evil forces, did he? He did pass Saruman's message to Gandalf that he was expected in Isengard for a talk, but I never thought that Radagast actually knew about Saruman's hidden agenda on that point. And he did send Gwaihir to free Gandalf when he was stuck on top of Orthanc. No, I'm with Fangorn on this one. He was missing in action, but not a traitor. Otherwise he too would have alined himself with the dark forces, which he never did.
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/7/2004 6:51 AM
Fangorn and Alaere:
No, No, No! I don't mean he was a TRAITOR! No way! He just did not really fulfill the wishes of the Valar the way that they had intended him to! He got more wrapped up with the birds and beasts of Middle-earth and did not deeply get involved in helping the peoples of ME in their fight against Sauron except for the few times that you mentioned above! UT states that only ONE Istar remained TRUE to the purpose of the Valar....completely true, that is!
Sorry to mislead you into thinking he was a traitor! He was just more or less doing his own thing!
Stormrider
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/7/2004 6:57 AM
and the Blue Istari faded off into the East somewhere and were not heard from after that. So that was why I was wondering whether or not the Valar would have been greatly disappointed in these Istari and would deem them unworthy of returning to the undying lands since they were not TRUE to the Valar's purpose.
Stormrider
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAlaere_Dûnhilien
Sent: 1/7/2004 9:00 AM
Storrmrider, I knew you didn't meant that he was a traitor, and it is very true that Gandalf eventually turned out to be the only Istari who remained true to his task. But I answered Fangorn's question because I thought it was an interesting one. Because, I believe that, if we would be very very severe about this, inactivity and forgetting about your cause could be considered treason. Denethor for example, would maybe have thought that way, at least, towards the end of his life, I mean. Sauron would most definitely have thought that way. It sort of depends on what one's views on treason are, I suppose.
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAirëlire
Sent: 1/7/2004 4:56 PM
Do these blue Istari have names, and wouldnt there only be two of them sent down or were there actually more then 5 Istari sent down because all i know would be Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast, and i would be deeply interested in knowing all the color rankings of Istari.
♪ Airë
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamesinginglúthiebaggins
Sent: 1/7/2004 5:19 PM
well, this has turned out to be an interesting conversation!! Thanks Fangorn for the info. this greatly helps me. So there were BLUE istari? i never knew that!
very *friendly* personhieB
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameTRMgrs1
Sent: 1/7/2004 5:31 PM
Here are the lists of the Istari and who sponsored them or sent them to Middle-earth:
| Known ME Name | Name in Valinor | Valar sent by or under the wing of |
| Saruman White | Curumo | Aulë |
| Gandalf Grey | Olórin | Manwë and Varda |
| Radagast Brown | Aiwendil | Yavanna |
| ? | Alatar Blue | Oromë |
| ? | Pallando Blue | originally Oromë changed to Mandos and Nienna |
Unfinished Tales does speak of there being more sent but Christopher Tolkien has this was in the works and nothing was clearly stated or sketched out by his father. There were not other colors that I was aware of than white, grey, brown, and blue.
Stormrider
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameAirëlire
Sent: 1/8/2004 6:43 PM
wow. thanks.
~Airelirë ♪
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN Nicknamesinginglúthiebaggins
Sent: 1/20/2004 5:14 PM
but why BLUE, couln't it have been green?
okay blu and green are my fave colors, and why couldn't one of the blue ones be green?
THe REallY AmUSEd LuthIE baGGinS
ONe wHo is Quite AmUseDdddd.................................
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 17 of 18 in Discussion
From: morguiChilde
Sent: 3/15/2004 7:52 PM
Yes Gandalf and the others of the Counsel were maiar. it is mentioned that the Valar each called forth one as a representative in middle earth. They were charged to keep watch over Sauron, but not to actively get involved in the affairs of middle earth, nor to actively seek dominion over middle earth. Each saught to aid the peoples of middle earth according to the Vala they served.
_______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 18 of 18 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameOrgulas_Lostlindëion
Sent: 4/4/2004 2:05 PM
Gandalf and all the other Istari (the Wizards) were indeed Maiar, sent to aid the peoples of Middle-Earth against the power of Sauron, but only in a way of council. They were not allowed to match their own powers against Sauron's, as such a battle would be too devastating.
Saruman also was Maiar, but unlike Gandalf, he wasn't allowed to go back, as he had turned to evil in his search for power.
Orgulas
