Wk9 Bk6 Ch2: The Lady The Water The Light

[Stormrider]

From: Annie2 (Original Message) Sent: 5/18/2003 8:45 PM

The picture was lost--It was a picture of Galadriel (ROTK film image)

Wk9, Bk6, Ch2, DISCUSSION: The Lady, the Water, and the Light

What agents are providing the light and water? Sam is sure the Lady of the Galadrim is making it possible for him to find water and to bring light. First he calls out to her for help in what, to me, sounds almost prayer-like. "If only the Lady could see us or hear us. I’d say to her: ‘Your Ladyship, all we want is light and water; just clean water and plain daylight, better than any jewels, begging your pardon.’ But it’s a long way to Lorien." This followed by a sigh as if, maybe, Lorien is too far away for the Lady to hear or to see them.

But when the Nazgul is killed, light does begin to break up the darkness of Mordor and later a trickle of water saves the Hobbits from thirst. Sam cries, "If ever I see the Lady, again, I will tell her! Light and now water!"

Do you think Galadriel is looking after the hobbits? Or does this gift of light and water come from another source? Perhaps it is due to Sam’s resourcefulness or is it just coincidence? Is it possible that the Valar are intervening somehow? Those of you who are more acquainted with the Silmarillion might be able to address this?

[Stormrider]

From: DaleAnn Sent: 5/21/2003 5:39 AM
Not quite answers to your questions, Annie, just I would like to mention that in FotR -- The Flight to the Ford chapter, when speaking of Sam, Frodo says "He'll end up becoming a wizard---or a warrior!"

Now what if it is Sam's power as a "wizard" that produced light and water?

--DA

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From: magpie Sent: 5/22/2003 6:37 AM
Dale Ann,
Wow. I never saw Sam in that light, but as soon as I read your 'question', I just stopped still and thought 'what if?'. I'm definitely going to look for any references or hints toward this in future reads.

Wouldn't that be a delightful dimension to Sam's simple character... the hidden depths of a wizard? And a subtle expression of it, by keeping it an undeveloped dimension.

~Magpie

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From: Merlin the mad Sent: 5/22/2003 9:21 AM
"...'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'." Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien No. 155 page 200.

Only Wizards ARE wizards, sent from the Valar to aid Middle-earth against Sauron. I believe the serendipitious (minimal) aids to Frodo and Sam along the way are the influence of Eru - by what means unstated.

MtM

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr Sent: 5/27/2003 10:08 PM

Galadriel
Copyright Tim Kirk. All Rights Reserved

Wk10, Bk6, Ch3 DISCUSSION: The Lady, the Water, and the Light

When Sam first enters the Cracks of Doom "he could see nothing. In his great need he drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued."

If Galadriel sent the phial with Frodo, she must have counted on its power to aid him in his mission. Did Galadriel know her phial would be subdued in the heart of Sauron's realm? Was Sam dismayed when the phial did not shine forth to light his way? Do you think he was counting on it and Galadriel to help Frodo in his last moment of truth?

How can Sauron's realm be greatest in Middle-earth and able to block the light of a Silmaril? I am probably wrong, but I thought Sauron needed The Ring before he could be the greatest power in Middle-earth!

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From: Kendal Sent: 5/29/2003 4:10 AM
Stormridr:

Just some thoughts here before I go research them!

That is a neat thought and question., the idea about how powerful the other major personalities are compared to the diminished Sauron without his ring. I got the idea from the Hobbit that Gandalf was able to get into Dol Guldur, get the Dwarves map and key to Erebor, but did this all on the sly. He did not feel himself able to take on the Necromancer in a straight up fight, despite, I think, his already having the Red Ring while Sauron did not have his Ruling Ring.

In Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf tells Bilbo about the Ring, and later tells Frodo more, and makes it look like the Necromancer moved from Dol Guldur not really because the powers of the White Council forced him, but as a trick of his own to make them think they had been more effective than they really were. Then at the Council of Elrond, with two ring keepers there, Elrond and Gandalf, they both feel that Sauron is way too powerful to be directly confronted even though he does not have his ring. Galadriel also does not seem keen on confronting Sauron despite her having a ring. It could be said that they were dubious of breaching his hordes of Orcs and the Nazgul, and wicked men, etc, but I still get the feeling that Sauron alone was more than the match of all the Wise, even before Saruman became a traitor.

The Silmaril were Elf made jewels, not Maiar or Valar made, and were not weapons, but they were hallowed by the Valar so that they burned evil creatures who came in direct contact with them, but from the Silmarillion Morgoth was able to wear them in a crown and the mere light of them did not destroy or hurt the evil creatures flocking around his throne, so maybe they were not all that powerful to begin with? Galadriel's phial was only a diluted form of that power originally in a single Silmaril, and may have been prepared and stregthened with some of Galadriel's own power increased by her ring. If her ring power was needed to make the phial, and her ring was dominated by the One Ring, then I sort of expect the phial to lose power when it is near the One and the One is back where it was made. In fact, I wonder why the One's near presence did not swamp it before, especially once they entered Mordor.

I did get the feeling that Galadriel thought she would be more powerful with the One Ring than even Sauron would be if he had the One Ring, but maybe I am misreading this, maybe she just meant that she would be much more powerful than Sauron was at present without the Ring, if she took it? Either way it looks like she felt she must have the One to equal or best the Sauron that had no Ring. I wonder if the Ring was playing a trick on her mind like it did with Sam, making him feel more powerful than he really was? Would Galadriel with the Ruling Ring really have been that powerful, or just tricked by the Ring until Sauron could complete his power and move to take it from her? Maybe she could fully wield its powers at once where a Hobbit could not? Lots of homework here! Thanks!