|
|
Post by Stormrider on Jan 19, 2009 13:49:34 GMT -6
From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 6/1/2003 8:59 PM  | | The Fall of Númenor |  | | The Realm of Sauron is Ended |
Faramir and Éowyn stand together at the stroke of Doom-the wind died, and the light failed, and the Sun was bleared, and all sounds were hushed….Time halted. Then a mountain of darkness rose up with lightening flickering about it, tremors run through the earth, and a sound like a sigh went up from all the lands about them. Faramir confides to Éowyn that it reminds him of Númenor, the land of Westernesse that foundered. He tells her of a recurring dream he has about a great dark wave climbing over the lands and hills. Why do you think Farmair keeps having this dream? What about the events described above remind Faramir of Númenor? How did Númenor founder? What were its last moments like? How does the fall of Númenor and Mordor compare/differ? |
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Jan 19, 2009 13:50:41 GMT -6
From: Kendal Sent: 6/13/2003 4:27 AM
Tolkien began his scholarly life as a Classicist. He was influenced by the normative Oxford studies of the Greek and Roman authors, and with his personal bent toward mythology, and his excitable enthusiasm for tall tales of high emotional impact, it is no wonder that he soon fastened upon the mysteries of Atlantis, as a fertile source for his own stirring tales of Numenor.
Tolkien dreamt frequently the same basic dream that he has haunt the slumbers of Faramir. JRRT even tells us in his Letters that he sometimes woke up in a sweat from these dreams of a cataclysmic drowning, wherein a great wave devoured the lands and swirled him down into the darkening depths of the awful Ocean. He even "contracted" with C.S. Lewis to write an Atlantis, science fiction, time traveler's tale -- a story that was never completed though it was later added to the Silmarillion as the Akalabeth, and then found its way as "background myth" into the LOTR.
Before looking at how, and possibly why, Tolkien used this theme, it may be helpful to give some background here by quoting the original sources from which ALL the Atlantis tales are derived.
Plato may have used older sources, possibly Egyptian ones, but they have not survived, so it is to Plato's fertile mind that the invention of the Atlantis theme is normally ascribed. In his Books, "The Timaeus" and "The Critias," Plato has his characters use Atlantis as a device to prove the superiority of the Greeks, especially the Athenians, over "barbarian" nations. So, a confrontation between Atlantis and the Greeks is engineered by Plato, and in the course of his treatise he compares and contrasts the Atlantean society and its government with that of an ancient, largely mythical Athens from about 9600 BC.
Plato Timaeus 2, Jewet trans:
Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state [Athens] in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars.
But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.
Plato: Crtias -- Jewet trans
CRITIAS2
Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the leader and to have fought out the war; the combatants on the other side were commanded by the kings of Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.
Critias - 4
Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side. In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito.
The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.
He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory.
And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. ...
Critias 5
Also whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land; also the fruit which admits of cultivation, both the dry sort, which is given us for nourishment and any other which we use for food-we call them all by the common name pulse, and the fruits having a hard rind, affording drinks and meats and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like, which furnish pleasure and amusement, and are fruits which spoil with keeping, and the pleasant kinds of dessert, with which we console ourselves after dinner, when we are tired of eating-all these that sacred island which then beheld the light of the sun, brought forth fair and wondrous and in infinite abundance.
With such blessings the earth freely furnished them; meanwhile they went on constructing their temples and palaces and harbours and docks. And they arranged the whole country in the following manner: First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty. ...
Critias 6
The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise:-in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light, and thither the people annually brought the fruits of the earth in their season from all the ten portions, to be an offering to each of the ten.
Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum. ....
Critias 8
There were many special laws affecting the several kings inscribed about the temples, but the most important was the following: They were not to take up arms against one another, and they were all to come to the rescue if any one in any of their cities attempted to overthrow the royal house; like their ancestors, they were to deliberate in common about war and other matters, giving the supremacy to the descendants of Atlas.
And the king was not to have the power of life and death over any of his kinsmen unless he had the assent of the majority of the ten. Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells:
For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them.
By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power.
Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows-*
* The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost or perhaps was never written.
**************
From the above selected quotes, I think we can see just how closely the tale of Numenor parallels the classical Platonic model, and it is also evident that Tolkien, nonetheless, altered many of Plato's original themes to fit this archetypal narrative into his own Middle-earth mythos. I'd like, as time allows, to pursue this study further, detailing how and why Tolkien changed the base story, as well as looking at the actual mechanisms of the sinking of the island continent that Toilkien finally hit upon.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Jan 19, 2009 13:53:02 GMT -6
From: Merlin the mad Sent: 6/14/2003 4:53 PM
I just admire people who take the time post meaty information that is totally apropos. Thanks Kendal
A tiny additional note of interest, as regards the dreams of Faramir and J. R. R. Tolkien: apparently Michael Tolkien also shared this apocalyptic dream of giant flooding waves sweeping over the land. In Letter No. 163: "I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atalantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.)" When I first read that, Tolkien's words were a little to odd: I mean, why would ANY of his children have the same dream their father had?
MtM
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 6/15/2003 6:05 AM
Kendal: Thank you for your research on Atlantis. This was very interesting for me since I had never read anything on it before. I can see how it would have influenced the story of Númenor!
MtM: No wonder Tolkien was interested in the tale of Atlantis! If he was having dreams himself that reminded him of it when he read about it, that would definately be something to find out about (and possibly put it in your own story )!
When Faramir and Éowyn felt the wind die, and the light fail, and the Sun blear, and all sounds hush….Time halt, I would imagine there would have been a lot of wind and sounds for the fall of Númenor. I would think the light and Sun would have failed with the wave coming up on the island and blocking the Sun from view. There most likely were lightening and earth tremors, too. The dark cloud arising would seem very much like a great dark wave climbing over the lands and hills.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Kendal Sent: 6/17/2003 5:54 AM
MtM: Thank you for the additional data on the "family" dream! I do not know what skeptical, modern psychologists and biologists would make of this "shared dream" motif. I think that during Tolkien's formative years, say 1890 -1920, there was a fairly strong surge of Spiritualism, and of course during and after WW I there was a vastly renewed interest in things both morbid and occult. Do you know if JRRT went in for spiritualism, tarot, palm reading, etc?
Stormrider: Your comparison of the visual aspects and effects of Numenor's sinking and Sauron's end work well for me. I think Tolkien hoped for us to draw these parallels, and maybe some others as well...
* * *
From: Merlin the mad Sent: 6/17/2003 5:12 PM
Do you know if JRRT went in for spiritualism, tarot, palm reading, etc?
Not that I have ever heard. In fact, as much as I know anything of the Professor's nature, I believe that he scorned such things as mere superstitious drivel. (I hope no one comes up with some esoteric bit of Tolkien family lore to prove me wrong!)
MtM
* * *
From: Kendal Sent: 6/18/2003 2:03 AM
MtM: That's pretty much my read as well, especially from the Letters I get no glimmer of "occultism" in Tolkien's life, although, as it was part of his general culture, and times, I think he probably had an understanding of its basics forms. Then too, a lot of the styles and forms of "magic" that he uses are grounded in pre-Christian, pagan sources that later are used in modern spiritualism: wizards come equipped with wands/ staffs, rings grant invisibility and luck, the spoken word has power, charms, etc.
Had spiritualism played any significant role in his personal life, though, I would have expected that to be highly publicized, and I've not yet come across any supporting citations in this regard. So, I guess it was as much a mystery to Tolkien as it is to us, just how son Michael came to have the same dream (slight strain of Twilight Zone music here?).
|
|
