Wk12 Bk6 Ch6: Meeting Beggars on the Road

[Stormrider]

From: AnnieofTR (Original Message) Sent: 6/8/2003 9:19 PM

The pictured called "Sauruman Overtaken" by Ted Nasmith was lost

Wk12, Bk6, Ch6, DISCUSSION: Meeting Beggars on the Road

"As they came out again into open country at sundown they overtook an old man leaning on a staff, and he was clothed in rags of grey or dirty white, and at his heels went another beggar, slouching and whining."

The beggars turned out to be Saruman and Grima Wormtongue. Everyone in the party offered help but Saruman rudely refused them all believing they had all come to gloat. He insulted the "urchins" and then asked for a pipeful of weed. Merry gladly gave him what he had left. Saruman grabbed it and accused the hobbits of stealing it. "Long may your land be short of weed." he snapped. Had Saruman forgotten where that weed originally came from? How was it that he did not see himself as a thief? Why did he see everyone else as evil and he, poor man, a victim of their foul deeds?

I was most moved by Galadriel’s, "Say rather that you are overtaken by good fortune; for now you have a last chance." What was this "last chance" that Galadriel referred to? Why did Saruman refuse? He ended his tirade against Galadriel by saying, "All my hopes are ruined, but I would not share yours, If you have any? Why didn’t Saruman wish to share their hopes? Why did he question that they had any? Could it be that his perspective on things was his downfall and therefore there could be no last chance for Saruman?

"You have doomed yourselves and you know it. And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine." How have they doomed themselves? How did Gandalf and the elves pull down their own house? What differences do you see between Saruman’s interpretation of "doom" and the others? Why did this comfort the wanderer? Sauruman was not finished throwing insults and mocking them. "And what ship will bear you back across so wide a sea? . . . It will be a grey ship and full of ghosts." Is there any truth in what Saruman said that it will be a grey ship full of ghosts? To what "ghosts" was Saruman referring? Did the others perceive the "ghosts" differently?

[Stormrider]

From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 6/16/2003 3:35 PM
I think Saruman has grown too proud by now to admit that he was wrong, or that he has been fooled by power. That's why he 'forgets' where the pipeweed came from in the first place, and his pride is also the reason for his denial of any help, especially not from those that have defeated him. He will not accept pity either.

The last chance Galadriel refers to, is probably the last chance on mercy for his mistakes, and a chance to return with them to the Undying Lands (since the Istari were originally Maia spirits, that would be his home I suppose). I have the feeling that he probably loaths the Race of Men, because of their mortality. But, on the other hand, if his plans would have worked, he would have ruled Middle Earth, which was probably more appealing to him than returning to Aman and serving the Valar. His doubts about the hopes of Galadriel, or maybe the Elves in general, refer to their leaving ME (I think). He does not want to return there, because he will have less power there, and thinks that the Elves leave ME because they just give up, instead of because they long to be home again. According to him, that is their doom: with saving Middle Earth from Sauron and leaving its shores, they leave it to Men. But if they wanted, they could probably rule Men.
Saruman proved not to be resilient against the power of the rings he studied, instead, he started longing for more and more power. In the end, that's all he really cared for. And that's the difference between him and the others, because neither of them really desires power for themselves: not Frodo; who was the one to destroy the Ring (though, granted, he needed a little help lol!); not Sam, whose only care was the care for his master; not Gandalf, who probably has had chances enough to claim the ring for himself; not Galadriel either, who was so relieved when she passed the test and could diminish and go into the West. And maybe that's the ghost he refers to: the diminishing.

Alaere