Post by MajahTR on Jan 19, 2009 22:53:31 GMT -6
Illadria, Algamesh and I were in the Prancing Pony Chatroom today...soon the talk drifted to the Barrow Downs. We realized that we had all been confused at one time or another by the episode.
Back in the previous chapter there is a passage: "A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind." This can lead a person to believe that Sauron himself (shadow) came and stirred the Barrow-wights (bones).
But, when you look at Appendix A: section iii: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur. "It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrow-downs were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the Frst Age by the forefathers of the Edain...therefore revered by the Dunedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried. [Some say that the mound in which the Ringbearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.]" The Dunedain of Cardolan fought against the Witch-king and a remnant of them held out on the Barrow-downs in the war of 1409TA.
So this means that the timetravel dream or spirit possession of Merry was of one of the defenders. Perhaps, he was the last prince.
Then around 1636TA, the Witch-King sent the Barrow-wights to inhabit the mounds.
The early Edain and Dunedain were BURIED there. The Barrow-wights were BOUND there.
I still want to know whose brooch is it that Bombadil picked up....
DA
Unfinished Tales the Chapter "The Hunt for the Ring", states:
"It was at this time [during the Great Plague that reached Gondor in 1636] that an end came of the Dûnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."
and
"The Black Captain did not know whether the Ring was still in the Shire; that he had to find out. The Shire was too large for a violent onslaught such as he had made on the Stoors; he must use a much stealth and as little terror as he could, and yet guard the eastern borders. Therefore, he sent some of the riders into the Shire, with order to disperse while traversing it; and of these Kahamûl was to find Hobbiton, where 'Baggins' lived, according to Saruman's papers.
But the Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs; and from there some others [Black Riders] were sent to watch and patrol the eastern borders, while he himself visited the Barrow-downs.
The Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs."
Stormrider
I wonder what would have happened if the wight had been able to keep all of the Hobbits in its control and killed them:
1. What would it have done with the Ring?
2. Would it have turned it over to Sauron?
3. Would it even have been able to communicate to Sauron that it had it?
4. Would it have put the Ring on itself alerting Sauron to Its location?
5. Did Sauron even think to have the Ringwraiths check back in the barrows to see if a wight had laid its claws on any Hobbits?
Stormrider
Storm,
What compelling thoughts so a little research and I came up with this:
From the Bestiary:
"Out of the Witch-Kingdom of Angmar many terrible and tortured spirits fled across Middle-earth, desperatly searching to hide from the ravening light of the Sun." "Demons whose bodies had been destroyed looked for other bodies in which their evil spirit could dwell"
"Who animated bones and jewelled armour of the ancient Kings of men"
From the Foster Guide:
"Evil spirits from Angmar who infested the great Barrows after TA 1636.
From TFotR, Fog on the Barow-Downs:
"Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!"
"for the spell of the mound is broken and scattered and no Wight ever come back to it."
Adding to what you located I am only assuming that Wights could not bear sunlight, so I doubt they would be eager to travel and return the Ring to Sauron.
I doubt they could use the Ring because they were spirits, they had no real form to command the Ring. Now I know your thinking "What about the Wraiths?" Well there spirits were manifest within the ring they were given by Sauron, hence they couldn't claim the One Ring for themselves either! Sauron was a spirit, but he still had a form, a liddless eye. So any power the Ring has would be moot in regards to a spirit creature, perhaps this might apply to Bombadil as well!
Now I think the Ring would have tried to influence it's destiny if the Wights had killed Frodo, and in this case I'm sure the Wraiths would have checked the Barrows then.
The reason Sauron didn't need to check the Barrows later on is because of the Ringwraiths report of the Ring being taken to Rivendell, at that point Sauron knew the Ring still existed, and he suspected it to be used by one of the Mighty there, or in Gondor. No reason to check Barrows after the fact.
I think I covered everything? Any debate? Rebuttal?
Namárië,
Iarwain
P.S. I want to know whose brooch that was too DaleAnn! But I have yet to find any more regarding it, funny with such a detailed description you'd think there would be a tale attached.
Iarwain wrote: "I doubt they could use the Ring because they were spirits, they had no real form to command the Ring. Now I know your thinking "What about the Wraiths?" Well there spirits were manifest within the ring they were given by Sauron, hence they couldn't claim the One Ring for themselves either! Sauron was a spirit, but he still had a form, a liddless eye. So any power the Ring has would be moot in regards to a spirit creature, perhaps this might apply to Bombadil as well!"
I can agree with this. The Ringwraiths were dominated by Sauron and would not have been able to claim it for themselves since they were under his control through the nine Rings of Men. So if the wight killed the Hobbits and it was able to include the Ring among its treasures, wearing the Ring itself would not have affected it. The wights were evil beings from Angmar but were not under Sauron's control as the Ringwraiths were because they had not possessed any Rings of Power themselves.
Therefore, the Ring would have lain around the barrows until the Ringwraiths happened to come back looking for it.
Thanks so much for clearing that up for me!
Stormy
Hmmm... interesing thought that the ring has no power in the hand of spirits and barrowwights. Even more interesting when you throw in the idea that Tom is a spirit. Could explain alot...
Abbie
I'm going to disagree...
I do not thing there is a clear line between "spirits" and other beings of Arda. Gandalf is one of the Maiar, and so is Sauron, so they could count as "spirits." I think that if Tom is, they are.
But is the Barrow Wight just a spirit? It has a hand (until Frodo hacks it off), so it has a finger to put the ring on. I think it probably would have, and would have received power according to its stature. Which I don't think would be very much. I think the Wight's primary power was fear - fear in the hearts of all living things. It would have been no match for the Nine, who would not have feared it.
But Iarwain, your post raises a question I have long pondered. If the Captain of the Ringwraiths had captured the Ring, would he have turned it over to Sauron? I think not. I think that neither he nor Sauron even consider what would happen to him if he possessed the One Ring. Or any of the other Ringwraiths, for that matter.
Let's suppose Frodo went up the hill to see who the Gaffer was talking to that night. With one quick stroke of the sword that Ringwraith would be in possession of the Ring. He sets off down the road, to re-join his captain.
As he rides, he fingers his treasure. He is alone, and the temptation to slip it on his finger becomes overpowering. Immediately the Ring claims him as its new owner. The other Ringwraiths become aware of him. Together they converge on him, and a mighty battle follows. The eight succeed in overwhelming the one rebel, who has not yet mastered the Ring. The Captain claims the Ring, in order that it might safely be brought to his master.
But it is a long road to Mordor. Along the way, the inevitable happens. But the Captain has time to learn to use the Ring. Soon he has the remaining seven Ringwraiths under his complete control, by the power of the Ring. They do not go straight to Mordor, but turn to Dol Guldor, where they set up their own center of power. A great war follows...
How would it end?
(BTW, I, too, would love to hear the story of the brooch. Anyone want to write it?)
Megn1
Megan,
The Wraiths ownership of their personal rings is their link to their existence, the One Ring is the conduit of this power. When they placed their personal rings upon their fingers, they became enslaved to this power which was that of Sauron's and gave up all hope of freewill. They did however have form, but that form is a result of their personal rings binding their enslaved spirits to their decaying bodies.
In the case of Wights they have no personal form unless they posess one. The hand you mention is in fact a decaying relic of the tomb, and not the personal body of the Wight but a posessed extremity used by a Wight to perform some task, in this case use the sword on the Hobbits. With no form, body if you prefer, they could not posess the Ring, and could only hoard it within their barrows until one would come who could defeat them (a Wraith), and claim the Ring.
So with Bombadil, although he appears to have form, he represents a more spiritual creature with his lack of needs for posession of things, and his lack of interest in power. This being my own assumptions based upon his character.
I really believe the Wraith and Wight information to be correct in regards to the Ring, and I have discussed this issue with others. Bombadil was just tossed in as a "hmmm maybe". Perhaps someone could find accurate definitions of Wraith and Wight that might show a definite path to Tolkien's reasoning. I will keep looking into this but in truth how are we to know that Tolkien implied such paranormal research into his characters anyway.
Namárië,
Iarwain
THE RING HAS ONLY ONE MASTER. If we have learned nothing, should we not have learned this? The ring twists the fate of the unknowing, pushes the direction of the unwilling, and coersces the mind of the just. The wraiths were already subjugated to Sauron, and I am sure the ring itself, would not stand in the way of it's getting back to the hand of it's master.
We are not aware of any malicious force gaining the ring in the story. Gollum was perhaps the most hapless, but surely also the most evil. If HE did not bring the ring to Sauron, it was because it was new found after the battle with Isildur and the Elves.
Once the ring passed to the right side of the "force", I believe at any time it could have been returned to the hand of Sauron very quickly and easily if ANYONE on the dark side ever possessed it. But they did not.
This was what the ring battled. Through (IMHO), the intervention of the Valar (if not Illuvitar himself), the ring remained in the possession of good, untill it's destruction. Also, one thing that bothers me is the strange confrontation at weathertop in the movie, which comes off much better in the book. The hesitation in the movie was like a pro wrestling laugh riot. The Wraiths could have cut his head off ten times, by the time they even inched close to him. What was that about?
Sorry, I am starting to ramble...........thoughts anyone?
Glor
Back in the previous chapter there is a passage: "A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind." This can lead a person to believe that Sauron himself (shadow) came and stirred the Barrow-wights (bones).
But, when you look at Appendix A: section iii: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur. "It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrow-downs were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the Frst Age by the forefathers of the Edain...therefore revered by the Dunedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried. [Some say that the mound in which the Ringbearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.]" The Dunedain of Cardolan fought against the Witch-king and a remnant of them held out on the Barrow-downs in the war of 1409TA.
So this means that the timetravel dream or spirit possession of Merry was of one of the defenders. Perhaps, he was the last prince.
Then around 1636TA, the Witch-King sent the Barrow-wights to inhabit the mounds.
The early Edain and Dunedain were BURIED there. The Barrow-wights were BOUND there.
I still want to know whose brooch is it that Bombadil picked up....
DA
Unfinished Tales the Chapter "The Hunt for the Ring", states:
"It was at this time [during the Great Plague that reached Gondor in 1636] that an end came of the Dûnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."
and
"The Black Captain did not know whether the Ring was still in the Shire; that he had to find out. The Shire was too large for a violent onslaught such as he had made on the Stoors; he must use a much stealth and as little terror as he could, and yet guard the eastern borders. Therefore, he sent some of the riders into the Shire, with order to disperse while traversing it; and of these Kahamûl was to find Hobbiton, where 'Baggins' lived, according to Saruman's papers.
But the Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs; and from there some others [Black Riders] were sent to watch and patrol the eastern borders, while he himself visited the Barrow-downs.
The Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs."
Stormrider
I wonder what would have happened if the wight had been able to keep all of the Hobbits in its control and killed them:
1. What would it have done with the Ring?
2. Would it have turned it over to Sauron?
3. Would it even have been able to communicate to Sauron that it had it?
4. Would it have put the Ring on itself alerting Sauron to Its location?
5. Did Sauron even think to have the Ringwraiths check back in the barrows to see if a wight had laid its claws on any Hobbits?
Stormrider
Storm,
What compelling thoughts so a little research and I came up with this:
From the Bestiary:
"Out of the Witch-Kingdom of Angmar many terrible and tortured spirits fled across Middle-earth, desperatly searching to hide from the ravening light of the Sun." "Demons whose bodies had been destroyed looked for other bodies in which their evil spirit could dwell"
"Who animated bones and jewelled armour of the ancient Kings of men"
From the Foster Guide:
"Evil spirits from Angmar who infested the great Barrows after TA 1636.
From TFotR, Fog on the Barow-Downs:
"Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!"
"for the spell of the mound is broken and scattered and no Wight ever come back to it."
Adding to what you located I am only assuming that Wights could not bear sunlight, so I doubt they would be eager to travel and return the Ring to Sauron.
I doubt they could use the Ring because they were spirits, they had no real form to command the Ring. Now I know your thinking "What about the Wraiths?" Well there spirits were manifest within the ring they were given by Sauron, hence they couldn't claim the One Ring for themselves either! Sauron was a spirit, but he still had a form, a liddless eye. So any power the Ring has would be moot in regards to a spirit creature, perhaps this might apply to Bombadil as well!
Now I think the Ring would have tried to influence it's destiny if the Wights had killed Frodo, and in this case I'm sure the Wraiths would have checked the Barrows then.
The reason Sauron didn't need to check the Barrows later on is because of the Ringwraiths report of the Ring being taken to Rivendell, at that point Sauron knew the Ring still existed, and he suspected it to be used by one of the Mighty there, or in Gondor. No reason to check Barrows after the fact.
I think I covered everything? Any debate? Rebuttal?
Namárië,
Iarwain
P.S. I want to know whose brooch that was too DaleAnn! But I have yet to find any more regarding it, funny with such a detailed description you'd think there would be a tale attached.
Iarwain wrote: "I doubt they could use the Ring because they were spirits, they had no real form to command the Ring. Now I know your thinking "What about the Wraiths?" Well there spirits were manifest within the ring they were given by Sauron, hence they couldn't claim the One Ring for themselves either! Sauron was a spirit, but he still had a form, a liddless eye. So any power the Ring has would be moot in regards to a spirit creature, perhaps this might apply to Bombadil as well!"
I can agree with this. The Ringwraiths were dominated by Sauron and would not have been able to claim it for themselves since they were under his control through the nine Rings of Men. So if the wight killed the Hobbits and it was able to include the Ring among its treasures, wearing the Ring itself would not have affected it. The wights were evil beings from Angmar but were not under Sauron's control as the Ringwraiths were because they had not possessed any Rings of Power themselves.
Therefore, the Ring would have lain around the barrows until the Ringwraiths happened to come back looking for it.
Thanks so much for clearing that up for me!
Stormy
Hmmm... interesing thought that the ring has no power in the hand of spirits and barrowwights. Even more interesting when you throw in the idea that Tom is a spirit. Could explain alot...
Abbie
I'm going to disagree...
I do not thing there is a clear line between "spirits" and other beings of Arda. Gandalf is one of the Maiar, and so is Sauron, so they could count as "spirits." I think that if Tom is, they are.
But is the Barrow Wight just a spirit? It has a hand (until Frodo hacks it off), so it has a finger to put the ring on. I think it probably would have, and would have received power according to its stature. Which I don't think would be very much. I think the Wight's primary power was fear - fear in the hearts of all living things. It would have been no match for the Nine, who would not have feared it.
But Iarwain, your post raises a question I have long pondered. If the Captain of the Ringwraiths had captured the Ring, would he have turned it over to Sauron? I think not. I think that neither he nor Sauron even consider what would happen to him if he possessed the One Ring. Or any of the other Ringwraiths, for that matter.
Let's suppose Frodo went up the hill to see who the Gaffer was talking to that night. With one quick stroke of the sword that Ringwraith would be in possession of the Ring. He sets off down the road, to re-join his captain.
As he rides, he fingers his treasure. He is alone, and the temptation to slip it on his finger becomes overpowering. Immediately the Ring claims him as its new owner. The other Ringwraiths become aware of him. Together they converge on him, and a mighty battle follows. The eight succeed in overwhelming the one rebel, who has not yet mastered the Ring. The Captain claims the Ring, in order that it might safely be brought to his master.
But it is a long road to Mordor. Along the way, the inevitable happens. But the Captain has time to learn to use the Ring. Soon he has the remaining seven Ringwraiths under his complete control, by the power of the Ring. They do not go straight to Mordor, but turn to Dol Guldor, where they set up their own center of power. A great war follows...
How would it end?
(BTW, I, too, would love to hear the story of the brooch. Anyone want to write it?)
Megn1
Megan,
The Wraiths ownership of their personal rings is their link to their existence, the One Ring is the conduit of this power. When they placed their personal rings upon their fingers, they became enslaved to this power which was that of Sauron's and gave up all hope of freewill. They did however have form, but that form is a result of their personal rings binding their enslaved spirits to their decaying bodies.
In the case of Wights they have no personal form unless they posess one. The hand you mention is in fact a decaying relic of the tomb, and not the personal body of the Wight but a posessed extremity used by a Wight to perform some task, in this case use the sword on the Hobbits. With no form, body if you prefer, they could not posess the Ring, and could only hoard it within their barrows until one would come who could defeat them (a Wraith), and claim the Ring.
So with Bombadil, although he appears to have form, he represents a more spiritual creature with his lack of needs for posession of things, and his lack of interest in power. This being my own assumptions based upon his character.
I really believe the Wraith and Wight information to be correct in regards to the Ring, and I have discussed this issue with others. Bombadil was just tossed in as a "hmmm maybe". Perhaps someone could find accurate definitions of Wraith and Wight that might show a definite path to Tolkien's reasoning. I will keep looking into this but in truth how are we to know that Tolkien implied such paranormal research into his characters anyway.
Namárië,
Iarwain
THE RING HAS ONLY ONE MASTER. If we have learned nothing, should we not have learned this? The ring twists the fate of the unknowing, pushes the direction of the unwilling, and coersces the mind of the just. The wraiths were already subjugated to Sauron, and I am sure the ring itself, would not stand in the way of it's getting back to the hand of it's master.
We are not aware of any malicious force gaining the ring in the story. Gollum was perhaps the most hapless, but surely also the most evil. If HE did not bring the ring to Sauron, it was because it was new found after the battle with Isildur and the Elves.
Once the ring passed to the right side of the "force", I believe at any time it could have been returned to the hand of Sauron very quickly and easily if ANYONE on the dark side ever possessed it. But they did not.
This was what the ring battled. Through (IMHO), the intervention of the Valar (if not Illuvitar himself), the ring remained in the possession of good, untill it's destruction. Also, one thing that bothers me is the strange confrontation at weathertop in the movie, which comes off much better in the book. The hesitation in the movie was like a pro wrestling laugh riot. The Wraiths could have cut his head off ten times, by the time they even inched close to him. What was that about?
Sorry, I am starting to ramble...........thoughts anyone?
Glor