Post by Stormrider on Jan 20, 2009 20:23:51 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/21/2002 10:38 AM
Why does Aragorn compare the Rohirrim to "the children of Men before the Dark Years."? What are these "Dark Years" to which Aragorn refers? How is he contrasting them to men that arose following the Dark Years?
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From: Stormrider Sent: 10/23/2002 8:09 PM
I have explained the Dark Years on the Ancient History thread of this study so please take a look at it.
Actually Aragorn compares the Men of Rohan to the Men before the Dark Years not after the Dark Years!
The Men (not the Númenóreans) before and at the start of the Dark Years were simple and very unlearned. They lived a patriarchal and tribal life style. The Númenóreans, who acted as their benefactors, brought them gifts of art and knowledge.
Aragorn said that the Rohirrim were proud, wilful and truehearted, generous, bold but not cruel, wise but unlearned. If these Men before the Dark Years were simple and tribe-like they would most likely have some of these qualities.
As I read the description of how the Rohirrim rode up to the Orcs, surrounded them, and shot at the Orcs with arrows from horseback, it brought to my mind our own American Indians and their method of warfare. Several Rohirrim even snuck up in the night and killed a few Orcs on the outskirts of the Orcs' camp. Then the Rohirrim quietly slipped back to their horse patrols. This demonstrates a tribal activity.
Stormrider
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From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/23/2002 9:33 PM
SR - I agree with your assessment on the Rohirrim being tribal.
The fact that they were "unlearned, writing no books, singing many songs." leads me to think that the Rohirrim are most like the Anglo-Saxons of the so called dark ages of England that passed down epic poems like Beowulf. Of course we know that Tolkien studied an admired their culture. The National Geographic Video stated that Tolkien was creating a "written" epic when wrote the LotR.
The Rohirrim are sort of untouched by the time that has passed between ages. The little juvenille scuffle between Gimli (and Legolas) and Eomer strikes me as silly, yet it is not out of place in a culture such as the Rohirrim.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Luthien (Sarah)
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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/25/2002 1:28 PM
I also agree with Stormrider. But are the Rohirrim really unlearned? Lots of Peoples passed on their knowledge without writings. But this is not what I wanted to say. Actually, they reminded me of the Mongols, they also lived in tribes and fought on horseback.
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/26/2002 9:24 AM
Although, this is a pertinent question, I have misgivings regarding its content. Were the Rohirrim truly unlearned or uneducated, or is that the point of view of Aragorn as compared to his lineage? Granted to a Hobbits point of view everyone is crazy. Fighting over a silly Ring that happens to be of service when those you wish not to speak to happen to come calling! Yet as well it should be considered from a Hobbit’s point of view, here was a race that retained much of their original language!
This subject, I believe, deserves its own boards under the heading “Tolkien and Racism”. It in fact touches on a difficult to express subject that many choose to ignore.
Yet, Lara makes a fine point, “Where the Rohan indeed unlearned?” Simply because we as a race have learned to apply our thoughts to the written word, does that cause us a have greater wisdom or insight to events over those who choose to express their histories within song or stories rather than text to pass along their heritage?
No matter how one considers it, Tolkien can sometimes smack of racism. Was this his message? I doubt it moreover, as I like to think he was offering a broadening of our horizons. Within this idea of older cultures one might glean that the true staying power and a force pre-eminent which was that of the Elves. It was the Elves who gave ideas for a pure life, and writing/ language to men. To me if you must compare to the 1800 expansionism there is your true Native American genocide comparison.
One must remember, within Tolkien’s mind he was attempting to write everything from a Hobbit’s point of view. And from a Hobbit’s standpoint the Rohan had a language closer to theirs beyond that of even Elvish or Westron. Are we to take Aragon’s statement as an example of his peoples pride and distaste with regards to those whom are not of the West? Or should we see it as admiration on the part of one who has ridden at their side? Be wary in your thoughts here , as you might implicate yourself and the dear Professor into Racism.
Namárë
Iarwain
Why does Aragorn compare the Rohirrim to "the children of Men before the Dark Years."? What are these "Dark Years" to which Aragorn refers? How is he contrasting them to men that arose following the Dark Years?
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 10/23/2002 8:09 PM
I have explained the Dark Years on the Ancient History thread of this study so please take a look at it.
Actually Aragorn compares the Men of Rohan to the Men before the Dark Years not after the Dark Years!
The Men (not the Númenóreans) before and at the start of the Dark Years were simple and very unlearned. They lived a patriarchal and tribal life style. The Númenóreans, who acted as their benefactors, brought them gifts of art and knowledge.
Aragorn said that the Rohirrim were proud, wilful and truehearted, generous, bold but not cruel, wise but unlearned. If these Men before the Dark Years were simple and tribe-like they would most likely have some of these qualities.
As I read the description of how the Rohirrim rode up to the Orcs, surrounded them, and shot at the Orcs with arrows from horseback, it brought to my mind our own American Indians and their method of warfare. Several Rohirrim even snuck up in the night and killed a few Orcs on the outskirts of the Orcs' camp. Then the Rohirrim quietly slipped back to their horse patrols. This demonstrates a tribal activity.
Stormrider
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/23/2002 9:33 PM
SR - I agree with your assessment on the Rohirrim being tribal.
The fact that they were "unlearned, writing no books, singing many songs." leads me to think that the Rohirrim are most like the Anglo-Saxons of the so called dark ages of England that passed down epic poems like Beowulf. Of course we know that Tolkien studied an admired their culture. The National Geographic Video stated that Tolkien was creating a "written" epic when wrote the LotR.
The Rohirrim are sort of untouched by the time that has passed between ages. The little juvenille scuffle between Gimli (and Legolas) and Eomer strikes me as silly, yet it is not out of place in a culture such as the Rohirrim.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/25/2002 1:28 PM
I also agree with Stormrider. But are the Rohirrim really unlearned? Lots of Peoples passed on their knowledge without writings. But this is not what I wanted to say. Actually, they reminded me of the Mongols, they also lived in tribes and fought on horseback.
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/26/2002 9:24 AM
Although, this is a pertinent question, I have misgivings regarding its content. Were the Rohirrim truly unlearned or uneducated, or is that the point of view of Aragorn as compared to his lineage? Granted to a Hobbits point of view everyone is crazy. Fighting over a silly Ring that happens to be of service when those you wish not to speak to happen to come calling! Yet as well it should be considered from a Hobbit’s point of view, here was a race that retained much of their original language!
This subject, I believe, deserves its own boards under the heading “Tolkien and Racism”. It in fact touches on a difficult to express subject that many choose to ignore.
Yet, Lara makes a fine point, “Where the Rohan indeed unlearned?” Simply because we as a race have learned to apply our thoughts to the written word, does that cause us a have greater wisdom or insight to events over those who choose to express their histories within song or stories rather than text to pass along their heritage?
No matter how one considers it, Tolkien can sometimes smack of racism. Was this his message? I doubt it moreover, as I like to think he was offering a broadening of our horizons. Within this idea of older cultures one might glean that the true staying power and a force pre-eminent which was that of the Elves. It was the Elves who gave ideas for a pure life, and writing/ language to men. To me if you must compare to the 1800 expansionism there is your true Native American genocide comparison.
One must remember, within Tolkien’s mind he was attempting to write everything from a Hobbit’s point of view. And from a Hobbit’s standpoint the Rohan had a language closer to theirs beyond that of even Elvish or Westron. Are we to take Aragon’s statement as an example of his peoples pride and distaste with regards to those whom are not of the West? Or should we see it as admiration on the part of one who has ridden at their side? Be wary in your thoughts here , as you might implicate yourself and the dear Professor into Racism.
Namárë
Iarwain