Post by Stormrider on Jan 20, 2009 20:30:02 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/21/2002 10:26 AM
Twenty-four leagues into their pursuit of the orcs, Aragorn, Legolas,, and Gimli accuse Saruman of having some power over their determination and strength. Aragorn states that he is "weary as no Ranger should be ..." and then "There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb." Is this an active power of Saruman, some passive enchantment he has placed, or ... just a bit of conversational symbolism? What are your thoughts? Why?
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 10/21/2002 9:50 PM
Interesting twist. I have always been awed by what keeps the company moving more than what has slowed them down. Doesn't Eomer wonder at how they traveled so far in 4 days? However, you are right that they appear to continually lose ground to the Orcs. I have always credited this to the physical makeup of Orcs. I invision them traveling like a heard of beasts (horses, buffalo) that is able to travel far a great speed. Men, and those races similar to men, just are not built to travel far and fast on foot. While it is interesting to think of Sauruman's hand in slowing the company down, what enabled then to run so far and fast with hardly any rest? Is it as simple as their love for their comrads? Is it another example of superpowers?
* * *
From: Alucard Redtooth Sent: 10/21/2002 10:01 PM
Here's the way I've always taken it: (I could be wrong, of course.)
Magic in Middle-earth is, for the most part, very subtle. Especially in the cases that matter. (Gandalf's fireworks are very flashy, but not terribly useful.) I always just thought of this situation as the will of Saruman actually hindering them and helping the raiding orcs. Saruman's power is affecting how people feel, as they pass into and out of whatever his sphere of control is. (Quite a bit later in Book III the party begins to feel uncomfortable as they ride towards Isengard.)
And that's the way I see it. ^_^
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 10/23/2002 12:09 PM
I went in search of some information to see just how powerful the Istari were. In The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and Letters of JRRT I found that the Istari were messengers sent from the Lords of the West to encourage, Elves, Men, and all good creatures to resist the forces of Sauron's evil. JRRT likens them to Guardian Angels in that their powers were directed toward this goal.
The Istari were in the likeness of Men: old but vigorous, they aged little or very slowly, they had great wisdom and many powers of mind and hand (Silmarillion). In Letter #156 it was said that their age was to limit and hinder their exhibition of "power" so that they could train, advise, instruct and arouse resistance to Sauron. They were not exempt from erring either; and because of their angelic nature, they were more likely to stray or err.
Saruman was especially gifted in subtle speech and skilled in smithcraft because he studied the "devices of Sauron of old." He also had pride and desired to master others. In Letter # 210 Parts II & III Question 34 is states that the danger of Saruman's voice was its persuasiveness to get one to agree with his arguments. His voice was capable of currupting the reasoning powers of his listeners so that they were not able to reject them by their own free will and reason.
This is what I found in my research. However, it does not give me any hint as to how his powers would give theOrcs more strength and speed or Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli less strength so they would tireand slow down. The only thing I can think of that might have caused the Orcs to move quickly would have been for Saruman to give the Orcs some kind of persuasive pep talk to make them hurry.
I think that Aragorn may have been tired out because he was under more stress than usual. The Company was split up, only a small hint that one of the Hobbits had been alive, worrying that Frodo and Sam had gotten under way alright, the intention of persuading Rohan to join in the war against Sauron, the stress of making his presence known in Gondor as Isildur's heir were all contributing factors to his stress. And now he had to go chasing and hunting down Orcs and hopefully rescue the Hobbits were a pressing goal.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:18 PM
I guess that after four days of hard labour and little rest (and food), they had every right to be tired, even nearly exhausted. Maybe Saruman had indeed something to do with it, but didn't the Orcs give Pippin and Merry an invigorating but awful potion to drink? And then there is the fact that the Orcs kept travelling day and night, while our three hunters had to rest by nighttime, and couldn't continue the chase for the danger of not seeing outgoing tracks (a possible escape maybe). I think that maybe it is the combination of that potion, that the Orcs probably drank themselves too, and the their continuing day and night, and maybe even fear of Saruman. Also, it could be that the bigger Orcs, the Uruk-Hai of Saruman, who were in control of the party, are just stronger than the Orcs of the Red Eye, and could run faster and further (and didn't care too much wether the latter could keep up or not).
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 10/29/2002 8:19 PM
I liked the idea that Saruman could cast a cloud of depressing gloom. But also, he does not need that it be an actual dark cloud. His orcs do not wither under the sun like many of the Dark Lord's minions. Perhaps, as Stormrider noted, this is of "devices of Sauron of old" adapted by Saruman.
Redha
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/6/2002 12:45 PM
The weariness and resistence experienced by Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli reminds me of the snowstorm that drove them from Caradhras. I suspect that Sauron's will, the stress and effort of the chase, loss of Gandalf and Boromir's death, concern for other member's of the fellowship and overwhelming nature of the ultimate quest all combined to wear the good guys down. On the other hand, the Orcs, who were ignorant to the exact nature of their mission, experienced none of these worries; they were just following orders to deliver the halflings.
Twenty-four leagues into their pursuit of the orcs, Aragorn, Legolas,, and Gimli accuse Saruman of having some power over their determination and strength. Aragorn states that he is "weary as no Ranger should be ..." and then "There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb." Is this an active power of Saruman, some passive enchantment he has placed, or ... just a bit of conversational symbolism? What are your thoughts? Why?
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 10/21/2002 9:50 PM
Interesting twist. I have always been awed by what keeps the company moving more than what has slowed them down. Doesn't Eomer wonder at how they traveled so far in 4 days? However, you are right that they appear to continually lose ground to the Orcs. I have always credited this to the physical makeup of Orcs. I invision them traveling like a heard of beasts (horses, buffalo) that is able to travel far a great speed. Men, and those races similar to men, just are not built to travel far and fast on foot. While it is interesting to think of Sauruman's hand in slowing the company down, what enabled then to run so far and fast with hardly any rest? Is it as simple as their love for their comrads? Is it another example of superpowers?
* * *
From: Alucard Redtooth Sent: 10/21/2002 10:01 PM
Here's the way I've always taken it: (I could be wrong, of course.)
Magic in Middle-earth is, for the most part, very subtle. Especially in the cases that matter. (Gandalf's fireworks are very flashy, but not terribly useful.) I always just thought of this situation as the will of Saruman actually hindering them and helping the raiding orcs. Saruman's power is affecting how people feel, as they pass into and out of whatever his sphere of control is. (Quite a bit later in Book III the party begins to feel uncomfortable as they ride towards Isengard.)
And that's the way I see it. ^_^
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 10/23/2002 12:09 PM
I went in search of some information to see just how powerful the Istari were. In The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and Letters of JRRT I found that the Istari were messengers sent from the Lords of the West to encourage, Elves, Men, and all good creatures to resist the forces of Sauron's evil. JRRT likens them to Guardian Angels in that their powers were directed toward this goal.
The Istari were in the likeness of Men: old but vigorous, they aged little or very slowly, they had great wisdom and many powers of mind and hand (Silmarillion). In Letter #156 it was said that their age was to limit and hinder their exhibition of "power" so that they could train, advise, instruct and arouse resistance to Sauron. They were not exempt from erring either; and because of their angelic nature, they were more likely to stray or err.
Saruman was especially gifted in subtle speech and skilled in smithcraft because he studied the "devices of Sauron of old." He also had pride and desired to master others. In Letter # 210 Parts II & III Question 34 is states that the danger of Saruman's voice was its persuasiveness to get one to agree with his arguments. His voice was capable of currupting the reasoning powers of his listeners so that they were not able to reject them by their own free will and reason.
This is what I found in my research. However, it does not give me any hint as to how his powers would give theOrcs more strength and speed or Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli less strength so they would tireand slow down. The only thing I can think of that might have caused the Orcs to move quickly would have been for Saruman to give the Orcs some kind of persuasive pep talk to make them hurry.
I think that Aragorn may have been tired out because he was under more stress than usual. The Company was split up, only a small hint that one of the Hobbits had been alive, worrying that Frodo and Sam had gotten under way alright, the intention of persuading Rohan to join in the war against Sauron, the stress of making his presence known in Gondor as Isildur's heir were all contributing factors to his stress. And now he had to go chasing and hunting down Orcs and hopefully rescue the Hobbits were a pressing goal.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:18 PM
I guess that after four days of hard labour and little rest (and food), they had every right to be tired, even nearly exhausted. Maybe Saruman had indeed something to do with it, but didn't the Orcs give Pippin and Merry an invigorating but awful potion to drink? And then there is the fact that the Orcs kept travelling day and night, while our three hunters had to rest by nighttime, and couldn't continue the chase for the danger of not seeing outgoing tracks (a possible escape maybe). I think that maybe it is the combination of that potion, that the Orcs probably drank themselves too, and the their continuing day and night, and maybe even fear of Saruman. Also, it could be that the bigger Orcs, the Uruk-Hai of Saruman, who were in control of the party, are just stronger than the Orcs of the Red Eye, and could run faster and further (and didn't care too much wether the latter could keep up or not).
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 10/29/2002 8:19 PM
I liked the idea that Saruman could cast a cloud of depressing gloom. But also, he does not need that it be an actual dark cloud. His orcs do not wither under the sun like many of the Dark Lord's minions. Perhaps, as Stormrider noted, this is of "devices of Sauron of old" adapted by Saruman.
Redha
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/6/2002 12:45 PM
The weariness and resistence experienced by Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli reminds me of the snowstorm that drove them from Caradhras. I suspect that Sauron's will, the stress and effort of the chase, loss of Gandalf and Boromir's death, concern for other member's of the fellowship and overwhelming nature of the ultimate quest all combined to wear the good guys down. On the other hand, the Orcs, who were ignorant to the exact nature of their mission, experienced none of these worries; they were just following orders to deliver the halflings.