Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 7:28:31 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/6/2002 8:43 PM
In Chapter Seven, as King Theoden approaches Helm's Deep he utters, "Nonetheless I miss now both of my counsellors ..." This statement is in reference to both Gandalf and ... Wormtongue. Knowing the deceit and motivations of Grima Wormtongue, why would Theoden speak such a desire? Do you think that the statement was made sarcastically, or, was Grima truly missed by the old king? Assuming that sarcasm was not the intent, what did Wormtongue offer to Theoden that may have benefitted him in his current situation?
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From: Selmo Sent: 11/7/2002 3:36 AM
I don't think that Theoden meant he wanted Wormtongue back or that he would value his advice.
He was emphaising how alone he felt. He'd changed counsellors, for the better, but his new counsellor had left him. Perhaps, after years of Wormtongue's manipulation, he still felt he could not fully trust anyone.
Selmo
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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:45 AM
Selmo, I think you are right. He felt alone, and maybe he thought, any counsel is better than no counsel at all.
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
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From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/11/2002 12:24 AM
Perhaps once long ago, Grima was a very trusted and legitimate counsellor for Theoden, before he was caught up by the spell of Saruman's voice. It could be a rememberance of a better time between Theoden and Grima and that is what he remembers and misses.
Stormrider
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From: Calensariel Sent: 11/11/2002 6:56 PM
Perhaps it's just that change is hard. That's why some people choose to stay in bad relationships. There is comfort in familiarity, even when it is detrimental to your health and well being. Better the devil you know than the one you don't, as they say.
Calen~
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From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 11/11/2002 9:37 PM
Yes I agree with you all and Cal, that is so true!
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From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/29/2002 11:43 PM
I agree with everyone here. A good King (leader) should listen to counsel and then consider the choices. Good or bad... there is value in it. Other points of view can make the choice clearer. However no counsel at all is lonely. Your not as sure of your footing.
Musings
Luthien (Sarah)
In Chapter Seven, as King Theoden approaches Helm's Deep he utters, "Nonetheless I miss now both of my counsellors ..." This statement is in reference to both Gandalf and ... Wormtongue. Knowing the deceit and motivations of Grima Wormtongue, why would Theoden speak such a desire? Do you think that the statement was made sarcastically, or, was Grima truly missed by the old king? Assuming that sarcasm was not the intent, what did Wormtongue offer to Theoden that may have benefitted him in his current situation?
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 11/7/2002 3:36 AM
I don't think that Theoden meant he wanted Wormtongue back or that he would value his advice.
He was emphaising how alone he felt. He'd changed counsellors, for the better, but his new counsellor had left him. Perhaps, after years of Wormtongue's manipulation, he still felt he could not fully trust anyone.
Selmo
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:45 AM
Selmo, I think you are right. He felt alone, and maybe he thought, any counsel is better than no counsel at all.
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/11/2002 12:24 AM
Perhaps once long ago, Grima was a very trusted and legitimate counsellor for Theoden, before he was caught up by the spell of Saruman's voice. It could be a rememberance of a better time between Theoden and Grima and that is what he remembers and misses.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Calensariel Sent: 11/11/2002 6:56 PM
Perhaps it's just that change is hard. That's why some people choose to stay in bad relationships. There is comfort in familiarity, even when it is detrimental to your health and well being. Better the devil you know than the one you don't, as they say.
Calen~
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 11/11/2002 9:37 PM
Yes I agree with you all and Cal, that is so true!
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/29/2002 11:43 PM
I agree with everyone here. A good King (leader) should listen to counsel and then consider the choices. Good or bad... there is value in it. Other points of view can make the choice clearer. However no counsel at all is lonely. Your not as sure of your footing.
Musings
Luthien (Sarah)