Post by Stormrider on Jan 23, 2009 6:48:25 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/6/2002 11:52 PM
Grima rides to Isengard and witnesses the ruin and wreck of Saruman's defeat. Yet, when given the choice to await Gandalf and Co. or to join Saruman as a prisoner of war, he chooses the latter. What would Wormtongue have thought to gain by siding with the losing faction? He was clearly shown some measure of mercy and goodwill earlier in the tale ... so, in the face of defeat, why would he not sue for pardon now?
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From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:31 AM
I don't think that Gríma can expect much mercy a second time from Gandalf. Théoden also warned him that next time he would not be so merciful (this is when he gives Wormtongue a horse, to ride away wherever he chooses). Later, when Théoden hears about Gríma being seen with a company of Orcs and heading north, he says that it will go ill with him, should he meet Gandalf again. I think that Gríma must have been very afraid of Gandalf, and maybe he still had hope that Saruman would find a way to escape (after all, he was the most powerful wizard before his betrayal). Maybe, he just thought he chose the best out of two evils.
Greetings
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 11/7/2002 7:25 AM
When Wormtongue saw the devastation of Isengard, his initial thought was that Saruman was finished. He wanted to run and hide, pressumably among the people of Dunland, but Treebeard denied him that option. Given the choice between Gandalf and Saruman, he was forced to think again.
Wormtongue had, like so many other people, been duped into believing that Saruman had more inate power than he realy posessed. He must have felt that Saruman would be able to find a way out and that, after a little time, there would be a profitable place in the Wizard's service in some new venture.
Selmo.
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 11/9/2002 8:44 PM
Others have already pointed this out: Grima was Saruman's agent and he learned or was lent some of Saruman's power to order to bend Theoden's will. Most likely his own will was bent in the process. As with Theoden, his actions appear to be of his own will, but actually are not. Not until the Shire, when Saruman's power is finally broken, is he able to act as he would choose. By then, he has gone mad.
I cannot make up my mind about his tossing out the palatir. Was this a straight plot devise or a manifestation of his resistance to his master?
Redha
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/10/2002 4:18 AM
I think that he trowed the palantír out of the window in a desperate attempt to hit Gandalf. Gríma must have been listening to all what was being said, and there he saw that Saruman was in fact defeated: the power of his voice faltered, and he also couldn't resist Gandalf's power (when he calls Saruman, he comes, without being able to resist). Or maybe he was just angry that Saruman did not take the chance Gandalf offered him: to give up his allegiance with Sauron, and his own plots, and to go in free. It is probably a combination of these two. I think that Gríma, at this point, would try everything if he thought it would spare him and keep him alive. Or at least, that is what I think. Anyone with other ideas? I find this very interesting (good question Redha).
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
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From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 11/26/2002 3:11 AM
A little thought. Gríma indeed stood between two evils (for him, that is). Could it be that he feared Gandalf more than Saruman? Gandalf seems to be the strongest, now he has become the head of the order and is on the winning side. Gríma did not want to face Gandalf's first blow. So he hides behind Saruman, who now has to face him first.
And obvious Saruman has more chance against Gandalf than Gríma does.
Namárië
Orgulas
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From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 12:32 AM
That was is a good question. Who would be more merciful in his mind? Perhaps the thought that Saruman still had a chance at getting away. Gandalf, Theoden, and Treebeard were not likely to give him any mercy... I agree. But I don't think Grima understood the power he was dealing with... he liked his tricks. Perhaps the power of Saruman's speech still held him. He certainly did not understand the power of the Palantir... he wouldn't have thrown it if he did. He was an ignorant pawn... almost like a pet going back to his master.
Musings,
Luthien (Sarah)
Grima rides to Isengard and witnesses the ruin and wreck of Saruman's defeat. Yet, when given the choice to await Gandalf and Co. or to join Saruman as a prisoner of war, he chooses the latter. What would Wormtongue have thought to gain by siding with the losing faction? He was clearly shown some measure of mercy and goodwill earlier in the tale ... so, in the face of defeat, why would he not sue for pardon now?
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:31 AM
I don't think that Gríma can expect much mercy a second time from Gandalf. Théoden also warned him that next time he would not be so merciful (this is when he gives Wormtongue a horse, to ride away wherever he chooses). Later, when Théoden hears about Gríma being seen with a company of Orcs and heading north, he says that it will go ill with him, should he meet Gandalf again. I think that Gríma must have been very afraid of Gandalf, and maybe he still had hope that Saruman would find a way to escape (after all, he was the most powerful wizard before his betrayal). Maybe, he just thought he chose the best out of two evils.
Greetings
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 11/7/2002 7:25 AM
When Wormtongue saw the devastation of Isengard, his initial thought was that Saruman was finished. He wanted to run and hide, pressumably among the people of Dunland, but Treebeard denied him that option. Given the choice between Gandalf and Saruman, he was forced to think again.
Wormtongue had, like so many other people, been duped into believing that Saruman had more inate power than he realy posessed. He must have felt that Saruman would be able to find a way out and that, after a little time, there would be a profitable place in the Wizard's service in some new venture.
Selmo.
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 11/9/2002 8:44 PM
Others have already pointed this out: Grima was Saruman's agent and he learned or was lent some of Saruman's power to order to bend Theoden's will. Most likely his own will was bent in the process. As with Theoden, his actions appear to be of his own will, but actually are not. Not until the Shire, when Saruman's power is finally broken, is he able to act as he would choose. By then, he has gone mad.
I cannot make up my mind about his tossing out the palatir. Was this a straight plot devise or a manifestation of his resistance to his master?
Redha
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/10/2002 4:18 AM
I think that he trowed the palantír out of the window in a desperate attempt to hit Gandalf. Gríma must have been listening to all what was being said, and there he saw that Saruman was in fact defeated: the power of his voice faltered, and he also couldn't resist Gandalf's power (when he calls Saruman, he comes, without being able to resist). Or maybe he was just angry that Saruman did not take the chance Gandalf offered him: to give up his allegiance with Sauron, and his own plots, and to go in free. It is probably a combination of these two. I think that Gríma, at this point, would try everything if he thought it would spare him and keep him alive. Or at least, that is what I think. Anyone with other ideas? I find this very interesting (good question Redha).
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 11/26/2002 3:11 AM
A little thought. Gríma indeed stood between two evils (for him, that is). Could it be that he feared Gandalf more than Saruman? Gandalf seems to be the strongest, now he has become the head of the order and is on the winning side. Gríma did not want to face Gandalf's first blow. So he hides behind Saruman, who now has to face him first.
And obvious Saruman has more chance against Gandalf than Gríma does.
Namárië
Orgulas
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 12:32 AM
That was is a good question. Who would be more merciful in his mind? Perhaps the thought that Saruman still had a chance at getting away. Gandalf, Theoden, and Treebeard were not likely to give him any mercy... I agree. But I don't think Grima understood the power he was dealing with... he liked his tricks. Perhaps the power of Saruman's speech still held him. He certainly did not understand the power of the Palantir... he wouldn't have thrown it if he did. He was an ignorant pawn... almost like a pet going back to his master.
Musings,
Luthien (Sarah)