Post by Stormrider on Jan 24, 2009 18:36:28 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 12/4/2002 9:49 PM
There are many instances where Gollum describes his interaction with Men and Elves throughout the course of his journeys. Something that I noticed during my reading is that he always includes a statement concerning "eyes". He describes the Elves as having "bright and terrible" eyes and we also see instances of him adding similiar adjectives to the eyes of Men. What is it about "eyes" that seems so prominent and important to Gollum? Does this mode of description speak for Gollum's mentality somehow?
* * *
From: patty Sent: 12/6/2002 12:55 PM
Gollum has lived in the dark of so long that the thought of sight intrigues him. He is no longer able to see very well and he draws attention to anyone, such as elves, who has above average sight. Gollum's very life is guided by the thoughts of his precious, anfd he does not want anyone or anything to interfer with his recovery of his precious. He is so afraid that it will be discovered by someone who can see better than himself. His inability to be out in the light hinders his efforts to recover the ring and he worries about this.
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/15/2002 11:14 PM
I was going to post this as a "Following the Character Development of Pippin" topic but then I thought perhaps it would go better on one of the Treebeard and Ent threads. But as I got into what I wanted to say, I completely changed my mind and posted it here because I think it fits well.
Book 3, Chapter 4 - Treebeard
I have always been very taken with Treebeard. His appearance, concept of life, unhastiness, and deep scrutiny and ability to "read" people he meets, and his strength have given me a great respect and love for the Ents.
I just love the way Pippin described his first impression of Treebeard's eyes:
"One felt as if there was an enormous well behind them, filled up with ages of memory and long, slow, steady, thinking; but their surface was sparkling with the present; like sun shimmering on the outer leaves of a vast tree, or on the ripples of a very deep lake. I don't know, but it felt as if something that grew in the ground -- asleep, you might say, or just feeling itself as something between root-tip and leaf-tip, between deep earth and sky had suddenly waked up, and was considering you with the same slow care that it had given to its own inside affairs for endless years."
I think Pippin has described Treebeard perfectly with just the impression he had of his eyes.
I can imagine Gollum cringing under Treebeards scrutiny! It is as if Treebeard can look into one's very soul. I think this may be why Gollum hates "eyes." I am not saying that Gollum has been under the scrutiny of Treebeard at all, but maybe he gets this same feeling when Elves and Men look at him. Gollum does not want the depths of this inner thoughts and transgressions exposed.
Perhapssss, my preciousssss, we sees thingsss in Elveses and Menses eyesss that we don't wants to see either--like integrity, honesty, disgust and mistrust of Gollum, etc.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 12/16/2002 3:55 PM
Getting a bit ahead...
I just finished the chapter the Forbidden pool. Gollum is fishing and he comments that "nice fissh. Makes us strong. Makes eyes bright, fingers tight, yes."
If it is true that Gollum prefers darkness and would rather avoid things with bright eyes, why would he himself desire bright eyes? Maybe rather than disliking light, he dislikes life and health, or those who have it. Elves are full of life, energy and plenty. Gollum appears to be becoming thin and fading away, possilby becoming thinned like Bilbo after having the ring for too long. Gollum may dislike those who are not thinned. Maybe by refering to bright eyes, Gollum is saying that he hopes the fish will refresh him and bring him back to better health and long life, like the elves. Gollums dislike of the elves and their bright eyes could just be a case of jealousy of their happy long life, in comparison to his.
keep shining
elanor
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/16/2002 11:01 PM
Elanor:
You just sparked a thought! The Nazgûl cannot see! They had to sit still and listen very carefully for sounds. They also sniffed as if they were trying to get the scent of something. (FOTR Bk 1, Ch 3 Pippin, Sam, and Frodo are hiding from the Black Rider)
Then on Weathertop, Merry asked Strider, "Can the Riders see?" Strider answered that their horses can see and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies. "They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us; then they are most to be feared."
Gollum was master of the Ring for 478 years. His eyesight must have been fading as the Nazgûl's eyes had from the possession of their nine rings. Gollum does seem to rely on his senses quite a bit, too, like the Nazgûl. If his eyes were starting to see only shadows or shapes in his mind during the night, then the sun would be very unwelcome if it had the tendency to destroy those night time shadows and shapes. I imagine even the moon and the stars might have some of the same effect as the sun on Gollum's vision although not as strong. No wonder he hates the light!
Then if this is the case, the eyes of Men and Elves can see Gollum very well, while he cannot see them well due to the sun, moon, or star light. He is at a distinct disadvantage with his eyesight fading and he does not like them seeing him while he can't observe them very well.
Stormrider
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 3:10 AM
Sam notices that Gollum uses other senses for figuring out where he is... Smell ...tasting the air. So his eyes are weak I think... but he does do well in the dark. As you Fade with the Rings... you eyes become worse... hmmm
What about those dueling lights in Gollum's eyes... Smeagol (yellow) and his evil twin Gollum (green).
Sam sees the difference... I wonder if Gollum looks back at Elves and men the same way...
Eyes are the windows of the soul of a man... isn't there an old saying like that? If you look into someone's eyes you can see if their truthful.
I'm also thinking that it's not so much that the men's and elves eyes are bright, but that Gollum knows that when they look at him they see the "yellow and the green"
Musing again,
Luthien
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 12/30/2002 6:13 AM
A little thought about Gollum's poor eyesight: he has been living in the dark for centuries, and that alone must have had a bad effect on his sight. When you live in the dark, you don't actually need your eyes because you can't see anything anyway. I think that his sight just withered, because there was no need for it anymore. That is also why there is light in his eyes (may it be green or yellow): his eyes reflect the little light there is, to be able to see very well in the dark. I am referring to the way cats see in the dark, with this. As for his sight turning that bad: compare it with someone who has had a disease or an accident and has had to stay in bed for a very long time: often this person's muscles degrade, because he just doesn't use them. That is what I think has happened with Gollum's eyes.
As for the Nazgul's whaning sight, well, by serving the Dark Lord, they too live in the dark, metaphorically speaking. Maybe that is why Tolkien has made them loose their sight too. After all, we know that creatures that live in the dark, can't, or just very poorly, see by day. Moles are the best example of this.
So indeed he could be envying the Elves for their bright eyes, because they have the keenest senses, in all Middle Earth, when he is not even able to see in the light (and that must hurt terribly too, after being in the dark so long!). That, and the fact that eyes are indeed the windows of the soul. Especially when you can see his mind so obviously, just look at the color (green, or yellow?).
Namárië,
Alaere
There are many instances where Gollum describes his interaction with Men and Elves throughout the course of his journeys. Something that I noticed during my reading is that he always includes a statement concerning "eyes". He describes the Elves as having "bright and terrible" eyes and we also see instances of him adding similiar adjectives to the eyes of Men. What is it about "eyes" that seems so prominent and important to Gollum? Does this mode of description speak for Gollum's mentality somehow?
* * *
From: patty Sent: 12/6/2002 12:55 PM
Gollum has lived in the dark of so long that the thought of sight intrigues him. He is no longer able to see very well and he draws attention to anyone, such as elves, who has above average sight. Gollum's very life is guided by the thoughts of his precious, anfd he does not want anyone or anything to interfer with his recovery of his precious. He is so afraid that it will be discovered by someone who can see better than himself. His inability to be out in the light hinders his efforts to recover the ring and he worries about this.
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/15/2002 11:14 PM
I was going to post this as a "Following the Character Development of Pippin" topic but then I thought perhaps it would go better on one of the Treebeard and Ent threads. But as I got into what I wanted to say, I completely changed my mind and posted it here because I think it fits well.
Book 3, Chapter 4 - Treebeard
I have always been very taken with Treebeard. His appearance, concept of life, unhastiness, and deep scrutiny and ability to "read" people he meets, and his strength have given me a great respect and love for the Ents.
I just love the way Pippin described his first impression of Treebeard's eyes:
"One felt as if there was an enormous well behind them, filled up with ages of memory and long, slow, steady, thinking; but their surface was sparkling with the present; like sun shimmering on the outer leaves of a vast tree, or on the ripples of a very deep lake. I don't know, but it felt as if something that grew in the ground -- asleep, you might say, or just feeling itself as something between root-tip and leaf-tip, between deep earth and sky had suddenly waked up, and was considering you with the same slow care that it had given to its own inside affairs for endless years."
I think Pippin has described Treebeard perfectly with just the impression he had of his eyes.
I can imagine Gollum cringing under Treebeards scrutiny! It is as if Treebeard can look into one's very soul. I think this may be why Gollum hates "eyes." I am not saying that Gollum has been under the scrutiny of Treebeard at all, but maybe he gets this same feeling when Elves and Men look at him. Gollum does not want the depths of this inner thoughts and transgressions exposed.
Perhapssss, my preciousssss, we sees thingsss in Elveses and Menses eyesss that we don't wants to see either--like integrity, honesty, disgust and mistrust of Gollum, etc.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 12/16/2002 3:55 PM
Getting a bit ahead...
I just finished the chapter the Forbidden pool. Gollum is fishing and he comments that "nice fissh. Makes us strong. Makes eyes bright, fingers tight, yes."
If it is true that Gollum prefers darkness and would rather avoid things with bright eyes, why would he himself desire bright eyes? Maybe rather than disliking light, he dislikes life and health, or those who have it. Elves are full of life, energy and plenty. Gollum appears to be becoming thin and fading away, possilby becoming thinned like Bilbo after having the ring for too long. Gollum may dislike those who are not thinned. Maybe by refering to bright eyes, Gollum is saying that he hopes the fish will refresh him and bring him back to better health and long life, like the elves. Gollums dislike of the elves and their bright eyes could just be a case of jealousy of their happy long life, in comparison to his.
keep shining
elanor
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/16/2002 11:01 PM
Elanor:
You just sparked a thought! The Nazgûl cannot see! They had to sit still and listen very carefully for sounds. They also sniffed as if they were trying to get the scent of something. (FOTR Bk 1, Ch 3 Pippin, Sam, and Frodo are hiding from the Black Rider)
Then on Weathertop, Merry asked Strider, "Can the Riders see?" Strider answered that their horses can see and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies. "They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us; then they are most to be feared."
Gollum was master of the Ring for 478 years. His eyesight must have been fading as the Nazgûl's eyes had from the possession of their nine rings. Gollum does seem to rely on his senses quite a bit, too, like the Nazgûl. If his eyes were starting to see only shadows or shapes in his mind during the night, then the sun would be very unwelcome if it had the tendency to destroy those night time shadows and shapes. I imagine even the moon and the stars might have some of the same effect as the sun on Gollum's vision although not as strong. No wonder he hates the light!
Then if this is the case, the eyes of Men and Elves can see Gollum very well, while he cannot see them well due to the sun, moon, or star light. He is at a distinct disadvantage with his eyesight fading and he does not like them seeing him while he can't observe them very well.
Stormrider
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 3:10 AM
Sam notices that Gollum uses other senses for figuring out where he is... Smell ...tasting the air. So his eyes are weak I think... but he does do well in the dark. As you Fade with the Rings... you eyes become worse... hmmm
What about those dueling lights in Gollum's eyes... Smeagol (yellow) and his evil twin Gollum (green).
Sam sees the difference... I wonder if Gollum looks back at Elves and men the same way...
Eyes are the windows of the soul of a man... isn't there an old saying like that? If you look into someone's eyes you can see if their truthful.
I'm also thinking that it's not so much that the men's and elves eyes are bright, but that Gollum knows that when they look at him they see the "yellow and the green"
Musing again,
Luthien
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 12/30/2002 6:13 AM
A little thought about Gollum's poor eyesight: he has been living in the dark for centuries, and that alone must have had a bad effect on his sight. When you live in the dark, you don't actually need your eyes because you can't see anything anyway. I think that his sight just withered, because there was no need for it anymore. That is also why there is light in his eyes (may it be green or yellow): his eyes reflect the little light there is, to be able to see very well in the dark. I am referring to the way cats see in the dark, with this. As for his sight turning that bad: compare it with someone who has had a disease or an accident and has had to stay in bed for a very long time: often this person's muscles degrade, because he just doesn't use them. That is what I think has happened with Gollum's eyes.
As for the Nazgul's whaning sight, well, by serving the Dark Lord, they too live in the dark, metaphorically speaking. Maybe that is why Tolkien has made them loose their sight too. After all, we know that creatures that live in the dark, can't, or just very poorly, see by day. Moles are the best example of this.
So indeed he could be envying the Elves for their bright eyes, because they have the keenest senses, in all Middle Earth, when he is not even able to see in the light (and that must hurt terribly too, after being in the dark so long!). That, and the fact that eyes are indeed the windows of the soul. Especially when you can see his mind so obviously, just look at the color (green, or yellow?).
Namárië,
Alaere