Post by Andorinha on Feb 12, 2009 11:34:38 GMT -6
Tolkien's poetry forms
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Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 4/28/2003 9:52 PM
Our beloved professor was not only a gifted novelist, but also a poet. I was thinking about all the songs and verses he wrote and realizing that I can not identify many of the forms. I was wondering if our poet laureates here at TR could help me out. Can any of you name and briefly describe the various poetry forms that Tolkien utilizes? I will be much obliged for your reply!
Regards,
Sparrow
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Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameMcDLT-777
Sent: 5/5/2003 5:46 PM
Yes sparrow, I'm also interested. Good question.
Sparrow wrote: "Can any of you name and briefly describe the various poetry forms that Tolkien utilizes?"
Thanks
~McDLT~
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Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/6/2003 12:31 PM
OK, Tolkiens Ringers, McDLT and I are both hoping for an answer. I know there are some of you out there who have some response to this question!
Regards,
Sparrow
____________________________________________
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Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/14/2003 11:00 AM
Am I to conclude that no one can identify any poetry forms used by Tolkien? Please say it isn't so!
I am asking this question in hopes of using the answer as a starting point for a poetry study. Should I take the response to this thread as an indication that, at least for now, there is limited interest in this topic?
Regards,
Sparrow
Poetry is the art of uniting pleasure with truth. -Samuel Johnson,
lexicographer (1709-1784)
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Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: BelfalasBoy
Sent: 5/14/2003 11:50 AM
Sparrow, I am no critical poem analyst, but maybe I can help, epecially with poetic style and its role in creating depth in LoTR...
His own poems have an anti-poetic anti-shakespearian slant to them - Tolkien managed to remove the famous bard from his Oxford sylabus completely. Tolkien had a unique view of what critics decribe asstyle and mthology, both not to be separated but both may be disentangled. Tolkien's view of both is that of "Loose" or "Tight" semantic and dramatic "fit".
Also, Tolkken thought that Macbeth was a real let-down, especially the symbolic political sop to James I which shows Shakespeare up as fawning to his pay-master the crown and thus compromising his art. Also, the same mediviel symbolism and mysticism has been re-hashed and a syle that Shakespeare would have been familiar with, but is not reallly used in his other plays is that of alliterative assonance. That is why, when Macbeth famously sais "and if we fail", Tolkien thinks the reply of Lady Macbeth was transcribed by copiers incorrectly as "we fail?" which has lead to actresses struggleing to comphrehend this strange retort. Is is accusatory, thrumphant or mocking of her lord, a verbal slap down by the domineering and ambitious Lafy Macbeth? Its ambigous. Yet the play is in poetic sytle of the Old English form that Tolkien studied and loved. Tolkien beleived that if in the tradition that Shakespeare was trying the mimic, it would be We fail /we fall, giving the classic assonce in tone that is found in Old English Poems (Souce, T.Shippey, Road to Middle Earth.Chap6 , pp164-165). It is strange that Critics have never picked up on this, probably its related to the academic sundering of Lnaguage and Literature, and modern critics are not good at Aglo-saxon echoes, especially ones which hung on into modern times in phrases like: mock and make, chance an choice, bulletand billet.
Also, note, hobbit-poems, using only old-english words and very ordinary or colloquial words are pushed to the fore in LoTR., eg, Sams Rhyme of the Troll near weaytertop. I cou;ld talk for Hours on Bilbo's "The Road goes ever on.." cycle that reapperas many times and evolves through Frodo's verses latrer in the book. On poetic form, they are mostly in Quatrains with alliterative lines rhyming, in plain lamguage and metere and with for the most part a gently proverbial quality. They look unambitious. They have, it's tempting to say, no function except embellishing their hobbit reciters' charcter. But, there is a sub-level whereby thesame words can measn different things in different places. As in the poem "Pearl" , it is often the way, subtly with Tolkien that a stock phrase or cliche can at any point be given a new point, see Bilbo's walking song, repeated in three different versions throughout LoTR.
Even songs, as contrasting In the hall of fire in Elrond's house when Bilbo and Frodo are reunited, with Bibo's Hobbit style is interesting. The song of Earendil shows this well. The suggestiveness, of the tale, not divulged fully until the publishing of the Sillmaril. is aided by devices not of sense, but of sound. Bilbo's song uses five: Rhyme, very recognisable, also, internal half-rhyme, alliteration (I.e beginning the words with the same sound or letter), alliterative assonance (The Macbeth Device outlined above), and a frequent if irregular variation of syntax. All apear in the first eight lines of Bilbo's song.
"Earendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvrnien;
he built a boat of timber felled
inNimbrethil to journey in;
her sails he wove of silver fair;
of silver were her lanterns made,
her prow was fashioned like a swan,
and light upon her banners laid."
Rhyme: lines 2,4 6 and 8 - nien/neyin
maid/laid. The internal rhymes however operate not between even lines but between odd and even, 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and so on. There are also, not on the ends of words but in the middle: mariner/tarried in', timber felled/nimbrethil, silver fair/silver were, like a swan/light upon.
My bold italics show the points of alliteration well.
I shall continue this poem discussion tomorrow, Sparrow.. This is a good Idea and deserves it's own post-bag heading..
(See T. Shippey, 1982, Road to Middle-Earth Chapter 6 "When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones".) pp 174-75.
Belf.
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/14/2003 1:17 PM
Dear BelfalasBoy,
Thank you for your learned discussion of poetic forms! This is very helpful and informative, and I eagerly await your continuation.
Best regards,
Sparrow
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 4/28/2003 9:52 PM
Our beloved professor was not only a gifted novelist, but also a poet. I was thinking about all the songs and verses he wrote and realizing that I can not identify many of the forms. I was wondering if our poet laureates here at TR could help me out. Can any of you name and briefly describe the various poetry forms that Tolkien utilizes? I will be much obliged for your reply!
Regards,
Sparrow
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameMcDLT-777
Sent: 5/5/2003 5:46 PM
Yes sparrow, I'm also interested. Good question.
Sparrow wrote: "Can any of you name and briefly describe the various poetry forms that Tolkien utilizes?"
Thanks
~McDLT~
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/6/2003 12:31 PM
OK, Tolkiens Ringers, McDLT and I are both hoping for an answer. I know there are some of you out there who have some response to this question!
Regards,
Sparrow
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/14/2003 11:00 AM
Am I to conclude that no one can identify any poetry forms used by Tolkien? Please say it isn't so!
I am asking this question in hopes of using the answer as a starting point for a poetry study. Should I take the response to this thread as an indication that, at least for now, there is limited interest in this topic?
Regards,
Sparrow
Poetry is the art of uniting pleasure with truth. -Samuel Johnson,
lexicographer (1709-1784)
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: BelfalasBoy
Sent: 5/14/2003 11:50 AM
Sparrow, I am no critical poem analyst, but maybe I can help, epecially with poetic style and its role in creating depth in LoTR...
His own poems have an anti-poetic anti-shakespearian slant to them - Tolkien managed to remove the famous bard from his Oxford sylabus completely. Tolkien had a unique view of what critics decribe asstyle and mthology, both not to be separated but both may be disentangled. Tolkien's view of both is that of "Loose" or "Tight" semantic and dramatic "fit".
Also, Tolkken thought that Macbeth was a real let-down, especially the symbolic political sop to James I which shows Shakespeare up as fawning to his pay-master the crown and thus compromising his art. Also, the same mediviel symbolism and mysticism has been re-hashed and a syle that Shakespeare would have been familiar with, but is not reallly used in his other plays is that of alliterative assonance. That is why, when Macbeth famously sais "and if we fail", Tolkien thinks the reply of Lady Macbeth was transcribed by copiers incorrectly as "we fail?" which has lead to actresses struggleing to comphrehend this strange retort. Is is accusatory, thrumphant or mocking of her lord, a verbal slap down by the domineering and ambitious Lafy Macbeth? Its ambigous. Yet the play is in poetic sytle of the Old English form that Tolkien studied and loved. Tolkien beleived that if in the tradition that Shakespeare was trying the mimic, it would be We fail /we fall, giving the classic assonce in tone that is found in Old English Poems (Souce, T.Shippey, Road to Middle Earth.Chap6 , pp164-165). It is strange that Critics have never picked up on this, probably its related to the academic sundering of Lnaguage and Literature, and modern critics are not good at Aglo-saxon echoes, especially ones which hung on into modern times in phrases like: mock and make, chance an choice, bulletand billet.
Also, note, hobbit-poems, using only old-english words and very ordinary or colloquial words are pushed to the fore in LoTR., eg, Sams Rhyme of the Troll near weaytertop. I cou;ld talk for Hours on Bilbo's "The Road goes ever on.." cycle that reapperas many times and evolves through Frodo's verses latrer in the book. On poetic form, they are mostly in Quatrains with alliterative lines rhyming, in plain lamguage and metere and with for the most part a gently proverbial quality. They look unambitious. They have, it's tempting to say, no function except embellishing their hobbit reciters' charcter. But, there is a sub-level whereby thesame words can measn different things in different places. As in the poem "Pearl" , it is often the way, subtly with Tolkien that a stock phrase or cliche can at any point be given a new point, see Bilbo's walking song, repeated in three different versions throughout LoTR.
Even songs, as contrasting In the hall of fire in Elrond's house when Bilbo and Frodo are reunited, with Bibo's Hobbit style is interesting. The song of Earendil shows this well. The suggestiveness, of the tale, not divulged fully until the publishing of the Sillmaril. is aided by devices not of sense, but of sound. Bilbo's song uses five: Rhyme, very recognisable, also, internal half-rhyme, alliteration (I.e beginning the words with the same sound or letter), alliterative assonance (The Macbeth Device outlined above), and a frequent if irregular variation of syntax. All apear in the first eight lines of Bilbo's song.
"Earendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvrnien;
he built a boat of timber felled
inNimbrethil to journey in;
her sails he wove of silver fair;
of silver were her lanterns made,
her prow was fashioned like a swan,
and light upon her banners laid."
Rhyme: lines 2,4 6 and 8 - nien/neyin
maid/laid. The internal rhymes however operate not between even lines but between odd and even, 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and so on. There are also, not on the ends of words but in the middle: mariner/tarried in', timber felled/nimbrethil, silver fair/silver were, like a swan/light upon.
My bold italics show the points of alliteration well.
I shall continue this poem discussion tomorrow, Sparrow.. This is a good Idea and deserves it's own post-bag heading..
(See T. Shippey, 1982, Road to Middle-Earth Chapter 6 "When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones".) pp 174-75.
Belf.
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/14/2003 1:17 PM
Dear BelfalasBoy,
Thank you for your learned discussion of poetic forms! This is very helpful and informative, and I eagerly await your continuation.
Best regards,
Sparrow