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Post by Andorinha on Sept 18, 2011 10:34:22 GMT -6
Very confusing indeed...
What I'm getting from this Shippey material is the feeling that the Dwarfs* and the Elfs were not as well distinguished, one from the other, in ancient times, as they are today -- especially if we use Snorri's work as our base of knowledge. Dark Elves, Black Elves and Dwarfs being, as Shippey puts it, synonymous. Apparently Tolkien came to this material, saw a profusion of Elf types (Light Elves, Twilight Elves, Green Elves, Sea Elves, Forest Elves, Gnomes/ Deep Elves of the Earth, Dark Elves, Black Elves, etc, and wanted to use as many of these categories as he could in his own fantasy realm. In this task, Tolkien assumed that each named, Elven type must have had its own background "historical reality," and it was his task to sort them out and give reasonable, coherent explanations for them. From this, Tolkien came up with an initial three=part division: Light Elves = his Vanyar; Deep Elves, Elves of the Earth = his Noldor; Twilight Elves = his Sindar. But then he added a second category, the Caliquendi and the Moriquendi, subdivisions based upon whether or not a given Elf ever got to the Faerie realm of Valinor. Then, he adds one more general distinction, the Avari, the Avarvi who stand in opposition to all the other Elves as they are those who deliberately chose not to even try the arduous trek to Valinor. Is there yet another Elven branch in Tolkien's world? I think here we have the Goblins, because the original Orcs were, in Tolkien's first conception of Middle-earth, derived from what I will call the "Lost Elves."
Where Tolkien makes a new, original and major break with the older traditions of folklore is in his treatment of the Dwarves.** Tolkien himself seems to have completely divorced his Dwarves from the Elven lines of descent, giving them a separate sub-creation by Aule. But originally, in Snorri's Nordic scheme, it looks like even the Dwarfs were a type of Elf, the Dark or Black Elves, the Svart-alfar.
So, what does all this mean? LOL, I'm not sure, but getting back to our original discussion on "Perilous Elves," where we looked at the dangerous side of the Wood Elves, and their not so nice treatment of the starving Dwarves, I think Tolkien was simply using the old folkloric conceptions of the Elves. They could be very nasty types, if he looked at the Anglo-Saxon "malignant-elf" models; and then again, they could be simply "wayward" creatures, associated with underground dwellings, if they were based upon the Svart-alfar of Snorri's tradition. I do get the impression that Tolkien was gradually working his way up from the folklore Elves towards a newer more personal conception of Elves as an entirely "good people," maybe something seen in his Morgoth's Ring and other late HOME writings where he was starting to divorce the Elves from the Orcs, and moving toward seeing the Goblins as derived from Human, Mortal Men rather than the Quendi...
But meantime, back here in the 1930s Hobbit, we still have his "transitional" Elves, creatures who owe much of their personalities to the dangerous, perilous, mischievious type of Elf seen in Snorri's accounts.
___________
*"Dwarfs" refers to the so-named creatures of the pre-Tolkien mythologies, the original creatures of the Sagas and Eddas.
**"Dwarves" refers to Tolkien's Khazad-people, his own take on Dwarfs.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 19, 2011 6:19:07 GMT -6
I was surprised when I first read LOTR that the Elves were as tall as humans (if not taller) since I thought of elves as small sprightly creatures. But after I read LOTR and The Hobbit, I was comfortable with Tolkien's Elves. But when I read The Silmarillion, and had to sort through all of the different classes and designations of Elves, my mind was boggled! And in many cases, their tales were shocking and sad and it was tuff to grasp it all.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 20, 2011 11:27:00 GMT -6
Hmmm, this brings up an interesting set of questions, Stormrider -- while we cool our heels with Bilbo, waiting for the moment of escape...
If we restrict our attentions to The Hobbit, what can we glean just from this text regarding the physical appearance of the Elves? I think somewhere in this book, we are told that the King of the Wood-elves has golden hair, but we don't even learn his name until LOTR is published some 20 years later. I know that the artists of the animated version of The Hobbit came up with "Elf-creatures" that were considerably shorter than Men like Bard, sort of "bandy-legged," pale-bluish toned in skin colour, and had very odd faces that I thought might be more goblin-like than elven. I think they were even given a sort of pseudo German-Swedish accent. Does Tolkien ever tell us that these 1932 Elves were "tall," and does that simply mean "tall" in comparison with Bilbo?
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 21, 2011 6:07:36 GMT -6
Boy! It has been quite a while since I watched the Hobbit cartoon movie. I don't remember what the Elves looked like in that.
There is not any description in The Hobbit of the Elves at Rivendell (laughing and singing is all) nor of the Elves at the forest feast in Mirkwood (dressed in green and brown). JRRT only says the Elven-King sat on a chair of carven wood and head a crown of berries and leaves on his head of golden hair and held a carven staff of oak. (The golden hair was noted in the last encounter at the feast where it was mentioned that the rest of the elves were joined by their elven-king and he had golden hair)
Maybe there is something to compare their height and build to humans later in The Hobbit when they are marching on The Lonely Mountain with the Men of Laketown.
I haven't looked through LOTR yet to see if I can find descriptions of Elves there. Maybe it was references to Elrond being half Elf and half Human that made me assume Elves were tall and slender?
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Post by Vanye on Sept 21, 2011 11:07:26 GMT -6
Barrels Out of Bond!-At last our burglar has liberated his friends as well as himself -tho the dwarves are less than thrilled about their mode of transport! So they are now floating their way down to the lake. Bilbo had of course not thought ahead enough about how he was to affect his own escape & is now riding a slippery barrrel while, obviously, invisible! To be continued. 8^)
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Post by Vanye on Sept 22, 2011 11:23:05 GMT -6
So-Bilbo is now spending his Birthday floating down toward Laketown on a barrel! Some birthday, but still beats the captivity he has just escaped. A little reminder that in 5 days it will be 5 months since the beginning of this expedition. They set out from The Shire on 27 April! They've still a long way to go! 8^)
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 23, 2011 6:36:31 GMT -6
That's right, Vanye! I remember Bilbo got a nasty cold from riding on the barrel! I think it would have been worse to ride inside a barrel rather than outside it since you would be cramped and more water logged inside in the dark and not seeing where you were going. At least Bilbo had fresh air and could see what was going on around him. The poor Dwarves!
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Post by Vanye on Sept 23, 2011 8:33:35 GMT -6
Having arrived at Laketown yesterday Bilbo & the dwarves are getting something to eat, getting dried off & cleaned up. The Lake men gave them a comfortable house for their stay & Bilbo nursed a very nasty cold indeed. Once more they have leaped from the frying pan & will have a respite before they jump again into the fire! 8^)
Edited to correct spelling mistake.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 25, 2011 7:06:07 GMT -6
Barrels Out of Bond!-At last our burglar has liberated his friends as well as himself -tho the dwarves are less than thrilled about their mode of transport! So they are now floating their way down to the lake. Bilbo had of course not thought ahead enough about how he was to affect his own escape & is now riding a slippery barrrel while, obviously, invisible! To be continued. 8^) It just shows how desperate they all were to get out! Just our own waiting around from the Dwarves capture until their escape made us antsy, just imagine how they felt cooped up in the dungeons. It was a risky opportunity and done on the spur of the moment, but it got them all out. I'm just surprised the Elves didn't stop the barrels when they noticed that they were sitting in the water deeper than what they should have been if they were empty! And wouldn't they have noticed that they were harder to shove into the water? But I guess JRRT had to have them overlook all that in order to make Bilbo's escape plan work! (I should turn my head and look away, too!)
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 26, 2011 9:16:00 GMT -6
Moving again!
Yes, I think too that the weakest point in the book comes with the Elves dumping obviously full tubs and casks into the water. Not sure what else JRRT could have done here unless it might have been possible to have the dwarves pack themselves, and push the barrels into the water themselves, Bilbo pushing in the last one after it had been perched on the lip of the drop?
"Luckily," this particular tale is still in the classical Fairy Tale mode, and if we require a bit more realism in the narrative, a mechanism whereby the action is more plausibly explained -- we have Bilbo's ring. It is, after all, a "luck" ring, and I suppose, Bilbo himself is "lucky," and he starts out with a good deal of his own luck. Apparently he inherited a sizable dollop of the stuff from his charismatic and memorable mother, Belladonna Took and this may have been one of the primary reasons why Gandalf chose this particular hobbit to join the Dwarvish company.
Initially, the ring in The Hobbit narrative seems to have had just two magical properties: 1 it projects a cloak of invisibility about its wearer; 2 it confers "luck," or at least enhances one's own store of the stuff. If we accept the fairy tale postulate that a "good ending" is required, then our hero, Bilbo, must have some power that enables him to overcome all adversity -- things simply must work out for him or the tale fails. Here the basic concept of "magic" comes fully into play, this being a fairy tale adventure, we need not stay too close to actual "reality:" the Elves (by Bilbo's luck) respond to the full tubs and barrels in a "somewhat" believable fashion, they notice the heaviness of the containers, but their realistic cautions are "luckily" over-ridden by the fuddle-witted butler-elf. "Luckily" the raft-elves are too busy to stop and check the tubs once they are gathered and formed into a raft, "luckily" they go off to the feast at Laketown without checking the casks even at the end of the downstream trip, "luckily" none of the Dwarves have drowned, etc, etc.
When JRRT gets to the more "adult oriented" LOTR, he starts dropping the open use of simple magics; animals stop talking; "luck" is down played, or perhaps exchanged for a vague sort of divine guidance; and the ring, now The Ring, becomes a potent force of corruption working seductively, and insidiously upon the psyches of all who come near It, or simply desire It. It is no longer a "luck" ring.
________________
Vague Ramblings follow next:
I think JRRT, after the fact of LOTR, wrote "The Quest of Erebor" to sort of explain away the fairy tale nature of The Hobbit, and give a more "adult" set of explanations for its activities, character motivations, etc. Q of E becomes a "bridging" argument between The Hobbit and LOTR.
In many ways I like the simplicity of the Fairy Tale Hobbit as a stand alone story, and I think trying to connect it too tightly with LOTR was a mistake that violates the earlier tale's integrity, forcing too many and too drastic a set of alterations of character motivation, and the mechanism of "luck." LOL, but here at least we need not worry too much about such details, just flow on with the story...
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 26, 2011 9:22:42 GMT -6
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 26, 2011 18:16:29 GMT -6
the Elves (by Bilbo's luck) respond to the full tubs and barrels in a "somewhat" believable fashion, they notice the heaviness of the containers, but their realistic cautions are "luckily" over-ridden by the fuddle-witted butler-elf. "Luckily" the raft-elves are too busy to stop and check the tubs once they are gathered and formed into a raft, "luckily" they go off to the feast at Laketown without checking the casks even at the end of the downstream trip, "luckily" none of the Dwarves have drowned, etc, etc. Well, I think just having left the merry feast in the upper halls may have dimmed the newly arrived Elves' wits a bit (more of that "luck" in action) and the butler was also wakened from a drink induced snooze by the merrily feasting Elves (more of that "luck"). And after waking up the butler, they drank another round! All of that imbibing dimmed their wits enough to let the lowly sunk barrels and the assurance of the butler that they were the ones slip past without inspecting them more closely. Speaking of "luck", perhaps Tolkien (during the writing of LOTR in order to connect all the dots) could explain that all of Bilbo's luck was also the divine intervention keeping Bilbo alive and in possession of the ring.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 26, 2011 18:41:31 GMT -6
Well, we are in for another sojourn as the Dwarves and Bilbo rest, relax, and rejuvinate in Lake Town. It seems (according to Fonstad's atlas) they are in Lake Town from Sept 22 to Oct 8th (another 17 days).
There is much partying and celebrating going on during this time, too. The people of Lake Town are very accepting of the return of the King Under The Mountain and the belief that the Dragon would be killed and riches start flowing down the river for everyone. I guess it was easy for them to get caught up in all the excitement and not think about what disturbing the Dragon could do!
Even the Master of Lake Town only thought they were frauds at first, until Thorin spoke to him about departing toward the mountain. Then the Master began to wonder if Thorin really was who he claimed to be. The Master wondered how Smaug would react to their intrusion! But the Master agreed to help the Dwarves and trusted that the town would receive some gratitude from Thorin when he came into his kingdom.
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Post by Andorinha on Oct 1, 2011 8:40:17 GMT -6
9/26/11 at 10:16, Andorinha wrote: the Elves (by Bilbo's luck) respond to the full tubs and barrels in a "somewhat" believable fashion, they notice the heaviness of the containers, but their realistic cautions are "luckily" over-ridden by the fuddle-witted butler-elf. "Luckily" the raft-elves are too busy to stop and check the tubs once they are gathered and formed into a raft, "luckily" they go off to the feast at Laketown without checking the casks even at the end of the downstream trip, "luckily" none of the Dwarves have drowned, etc, etc. Stormrider: "Well, I think just having left the merry feast in the upper halls may have dimmed the newly arrived Elves' wits a bit (more of that 'luck' in action) and the butler was also wakened from a drink induced snooze by the merrily feasting Elves (more of that 'luck')." LOL, just remembering the Peter Jackson twist on the issue of Elven drunkeness: in Rohan, Gimli and Legolas are portrayed in the movie version as having a contest to see which can hold his drink the better. After a dozen or so pints, Gimli collapses, while Legolas remarks that he feels only a slight tingle in his fingers. PJ should have paid attention to The Hobbit, for in this book, Elves certainly can collapse into drunken stupors!
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Post by Stormrider on Oct 1, 2011 13:19:13 GMT -6
Andorinha: Good point! Legolas didn't seem the least bit affected during his drinking contest with Gimli, did he?
Hmmmm....perhaps Elven spirits are much more potent than mortal or dwarven spirits!
Either that or those Elves were really tying one on BIG time, much more so than Legolas and Gimli did in Rohan!
Luckily for Bilbo and the Dwarves, the Elves were not completely immune to merry feasting! ;D
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