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Post by Agrush the Crafty on Aug 28, 2015 15:12:30 GMT -6
Now here is something I have always wondered, are the goblins and orcs separate species or are they similar. In Tolkiens writings, here called them the same and I always believed that goblins are orcs that evolved to suit themselves to the climate of the misty mountains. Am I correct?
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 28, 2015 18:12:32 GMT -6
Orcs and Goblins are the same species according to Tolkien. (Insert citation here, LOL) Tolkien used the term Goblin in The Hobbit as a more familiar term for his young readers. We could question though, at the time of the original writing of The Hobbit, did Tolkien see Goblins as the Orcs of what was to become The Silmarillion ?
It stands to reason and obiviously so, that over time isolated populations of any species develop particular traits: physical and cultural. Tolkien separates his Good Guy races into distinct cultural groups, that also, may have physical differences. For instance, Hobbits have three distinct "stocks": Harfoot, Fallohide, and Stoor. I haven't spent time considering the differences in the populations of Orcs, but, it may be time to attempt to catalogue those differences and see if there is good reason for those differences. Off the top of my head, and without consulting the books, there are several Orc "stocks" in Mordor alone. Fan
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Post by Agrush the Crafty on Aug 28, 2015 21:42:38 GMT -6
Thats what I thought, I thought they were the same, thanks for the clarification.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 29, 2015 7:19:00 GMT -6
I first read The Lord of the Rings series before I read The Hobbit. There are several types or orcs. I am camping and don't have my reference books with me but I can recall Uruk-Hai are one breed of orc. I think those may have been bred by Saruman at Orthanc to be bigger and stronger. Even in Mordor, if I remember correctly, the different regiments seemed to be in competition or at odds with each other. That doesn't necissarily mean they were different breeds. Seems orcs are just naturally ornery even among themselves. So when I went back to read The Hobbit, even tho called Goblins, I still pictured orcs in my mind. GOBLIN was the easy name that kids related too. PJ's movies depict them all the same more or less Orcish-looking. Now in The Silmarillion, JRRT said orcs were created from corrupting Elves (then later debate? Men?). That made me think orcs would be more slender in build and that confused me! Now...bring in Lotro online game and goblins are definately smaller and daintier than the orcs in the game. And there are many different looking orcs in the game too!
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Aug 30, 2015 21:56:13 GMT -6
According to Tolkien, they were the same race, with "goblin" simply being an alternate term or translation of "orc." However, later fantasy works like Dungeons and Dragons, Warcraft, and even Lord of the Rings Online (as Stormrider mentioned) interpret goblins as being a smaller breed of orc, a sub-species basically. I assume this is because the goblins of The Hobbit seem more comical in nature, singing songs and living in an underground Goblin-town with a big fat king. Whereas the orcs of Lord of the Rings are more monstrous and militaristic, the foot soldiers of the Enemy. There is a disconnect between the two in many people's minds so the tendency has become to make them separate but related creatures.
I don't think Tolkien approached them that way but he definitely implied that there were various breeds or types of orcs in Middle-earth - the tribal goblins of the Misty Mountains, the soldier orcs of Mordor, the "snaga" or slave/worker orcs, the bigger and stronger Uruk-hai, the half-orcs of Isengard, etc. Tolkien even mentions hobgoblins in The Hobbit, though he seems to have abandoned that term in later works. So depending on your preference, one can think of "goblin" as a type of orc or as a name for the whole race.
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