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Post by Andorinha on Apr 29, 2021 9:49:53 GMT -6
Since the Nazgul are discussed under this general topic division, "Creatures of Middle-earth," I think a thread on their Master, Sauron, would fit here as well.
To keep this thread from becoming a massive "Sauron catchall" on this massive character in the Middle-earth corpus, I'd like to limit this discussion to the narrower topic concerning a question fobria brought up under the "Merry's Sword" thread:
"Is it for sure Sauron will return in the Last Battle?" (fobria)
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 29, 2021 13:05:32 GMT -6
Ok "for sure" Fobria, where did you hear that? I always felt Sauron was good and dead, defeated, kaput. I always felt safe after The Ring melted in Mt. Doom.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 29, 2021 13:19:06 GMT -6
Is it for sure Sauron will return in the Last Battle? From what I recall, even Melkor's returning isn't explicitly mentioned in the published Silmarillion, though it appears in the HOME. But if Sauron doesn't return, presumably the Nazgul won't. If they're Men, even Men whose lives have been prolonged unnaturally, I'd expect them to leave the circles of Arda upon final death. I'd like to think some of them even found peace and freedom at last. Though non-canonical, I like the depiction of this very thing from the Shadow of War game. So was it Fobria who brought up Sauron's return in the Last Battle? And I thought everyone in ROTK were in the Last Battle! Is there to be another one? I like your last paragraph, Fobria, about the Nine finding peace, but did they repent? But if ensnared into evil service, maybe they didn't need to repent since they unwittingly took their rings not knowing what they were in for. |
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Apr 29, 2021 19:40:31 GMT -6
Is it for sure Sauron will return in the Last Battle? From what I recall, even Melkor's returning isn't explicitly mentioned in the published Silmarillion, though it appears in the HOME. But if Sauron doesn't return, presumably the Nazgul won't. If they're Men, even Men whose lives have been prolonged unnaturally, I'd expect them to leave the circles of Arda upon final death. I'd like to think some of them even found peace and freedom at last. Though non-canonical, I like the depiction of this very thing from the Shadow of War game. So was it Fobria who brought up Sauron's return in the Last Battle? And I thought everyone in ROTK were in the Last Battle! Is there to be another one? I don't think he means the last battle of the War of the Ring but the Last Battle of all time - the Dagor Dagorath. This is an Elvish prophecy about the end of the world mentioned in the History of Middle-earth. Supposedly, Morgoth will return and be finally defeated (by the spirit of Turin Turambar in some versions). This then leads to the remaking of the world as Arda Healed, a world free of the taint of Morgoth's evil. More info here: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dagor_DagorathI've never heard it mentioned that Sauron would return as well. I suppose if Morgoth escaped the Void he might be able to bring his most faithful servant with him. But I don't recall if Tolkien ever mentioned this as a possibility. |
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 29, 2021 21:49:13 GMT -6
It has been a long time since I've read The Sil. I do remember mention of the Dagor Dagorath, but don't remember anything about it! There is too much I don't remember of The Sil. All the names and types of Elves were difficult for me to follow.
I'll be sure to read your links, Freddie. I do have my Sil with me, so will look at it, too.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 30, 2021 7:16:49 GMT -6
I'm going through the HOME volumes, the various Silmarillion versions I have, looking specifically for a JRRT statement as to what fate Sauron finally suffers... LOL not much definitive material on Sauron himself after the Ring is Destroyed by Frodo/ Gollum.
I find a lot of online discussion groups, where basically personal opinions and "fan-fiction" accounts are given. These seem, in a loose tally, to be running 2/3rds in favor of Sauron "never comes back," and about a third pretty sure he does find some way to join in the Final Battle...
Personally, I'm leaning ever more toward fobria's and Freddy's position: I too can't find/ remember a specific statement by JRR on this particular matter...
More research required!
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Post by fobria on Apr 30, 2021 22:12:23 GMT -6
Yes, not only is there seeming lack of evidence for Sauron's return in Dagor Dagorath, but I think there's positive evidence against his return.
Of course there's Gandalf himself - "If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in the beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape."
Then there's the more 'metaphysical' approach - as per HOME, Morgoth dispersed his power into Arda, so Arda was to him as the Ring was to Sauron. He's far greater than Sauron, and Arda was never destroyed. It seems easier to see how he could return. But Sauron's Ring was destroyed and he's a lesser being. It's harder to see how he could return, at least within the strictures of canon.
As an non-canonical aside, because of my interest in redemption stories, I've read some fan-fiction on Sauron's fate after the destruction of the Ring. The two works below are my favorite, and they contain no lurid or salacious content:
The works below begin with promise but take a turn for the surreal and bizzare (though without lurid or salacious content again). I read way more than I should have. Read it if you dare (and if you have nothing better to do):
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Post by Andorinha on May 7, 2021 11:38:46 GMT -6
I still cannot find a direct statement that Sauron will return, still looking... But, likewise I find it hard to believe that he alone would be excluded from the final battle when even dead dragons and dead mortal Men are brought back -- Ancalagon the Black and Turin...
fobria, your interest in "redemption tales" is quite interesting, I lean that way myself -- in fact we had quite a discussion on the Redemption of Orcs, some long time ago...
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