PJ's Movies vs Tolkien's Written Word

[Stormrider]

So I started reading FOTR again this week. So far, I have gotten Strider and the Hobbits to Weathertop and Frodo has been stabbed, tended to as best as can be and now heading toward Rivendell.

So far, I am liking how PJ wove together Concerning Hobbits, more detail on the big birthday party, information about the Ring and the Black Riders as told to Frodo by Gandalf and Strider.

JRRT seemed to drag out the years between the big birthday party and Frodo's, Sam's and Pippin's leaving Hobbiton. All the preparation to sell off Bag End to the S-B's and buying another home in Buckland. I had forgotten how after being chased by black riders, they get to Maggot's farm and he helps by taking them to the ferry and meet up with Merry on horseback. They thought it was a black rider. But it was just Merry and they cross the river easily.

I liked the faster paced movie version up to this point and how Merry & Pippin stole the mushrooms and run into Frodo & Sam. I also liked how they had to run to the ferry and barely escape the black rider. Just seemed well thought out.

Then JRRT'S Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, and Goldberry were good to read. Good to brush up on that portion of the story.

I'm trying to remember if they were caught in the Barrow Downs in the movie. Or was it skipped? If skipped, how did they get the Wessternesse daggers? I can't remember!

[Andorinha]

I think PJ dropped the entire Bombadil/ Barrows Down sequence, and the magical nature of the ancient swords. He probably considered this episode to be too close to a musical, what with the hobbits, Tom, and Goldberry all running about singing instead of soberly speaking their lines. As I recall the movie, Strider has a large pack from which he takes five short swords and distributes them to the hobbits before they get to Weathertop -- hence the sword Merry uses against the Nazgul is just a regular, unenchanted blade....

[Stormrider]

LOL! A musical with Tom Bombaril and Goldberry! LOL!

But that isn't good if Merry's blade is not an enchanted one. That just can't be! No wonder after the Witchking is defeated by Eowyn and Merry (the movie), not much is made of Merry's part in it.

Yeah, I searched the web and Aragorn gave them Elvish blades. Why couldn't PJ have made them from Wessterness? Aragorn could have gotten them somehow in all of his travels before he met up with Frodo and his friends.

[Stormrider]

Another twist of Books vs Movies throws in LOTRO game! LOL!

Distances between towns and ancient ruins, etc. are much further depicted in the Books than in the LOTRO game. While the game maps appear very close, if not right on, when you get on your horse, nothing seems so far as what's written. Of course, if you walk in the game (or do the chicken quests hehehe) distances seem further in game than on horseback.

Of course, while the movies were long, everything seemed speedier getting places than in the books.

I know we discussed it years ago on some thread how JRRT took great care to measure distances and to figure actual walking, running, and riding times for his timeline.

[Stormrider]

I'm into The Two Towers now.

PJ embellished Theoden's illness(?) and gave Gandalf a huge wizardly spell breaker driving Saruman out of Theoden. He made Theoden seem worse than he was in JRRT's telling.

In JRRT's account, Theoden just seemed tired, old, and bent. Gandalf's "roll of thunder" and blocking the sunlight out so the hall turned dark, then a lightening strike is very vivid, too. But the written version tributes Theoden's feebleness to Grima Wormtongue's counsel and influence. Theoden shakes himself out of his cloud of gloom more easily than in the movie version, too.

I really liked PJ's music (Howard Shore's) and how he showed the very old and very young armoring up to fight at Helm's Deep. It was very moving and choked me up good. But he didn't need to bring in the Elves and kill Haldir. Also it was too long!

Game version: I love how Meduseld and Helm's Deep look. Just beautiful. I like all the writing on the banners and floors and the gold everywhere. I remember trying to decifer the script from Old English/Anglo Saxon to Modern English. tolkiensring.proboards.com/thread/1418/anglo-saxon

[Stormrider]

The Anglo-Saxon link above was a blast from the past to read again. Fan posted at the very end that the floor in Meduseld was the Lament for the Rohirrim poem and was probably translated for the game by Michael Drout!

[Andorinha]

Wow, I forgot how much work we did on reading "Rohirric," a fun time, and intellectually challenging! LOL -- I'll try reading a few inscriptions today, see if I remember anything...

I've seen a number of different identifications for the swords Aragorn gives the hobbits in PJ's film version -- elvish blades, barrows blades from the Cardolan branch of the Arnorian Westernese men. However, as I remember the scene in the movies (will need to get the videos out for a visual review), Aragorn never says anything about the blades and their possible origins; and as my mind's eye sees them, when Aragorn unpacked them, they were not "willow-leaf" blades, but all of different shapes, different styles of scabbards -- no black metal scabbards with red gem stone patterns. The movie version swords just look like something picked up at random in Aragorn's travels, possibly from regular men? After Merry and Pippin get away from the Orcs near Fangorn, in the books Aragorn retrieves their barrows swords and scabbards from the battlefield and so their original, Tom Bombadil given, barrows blades are restored to them -- but in the movies, I think Merry gets a new blade from Theoden, and Pippin must get a new sword from Denethor in Gondor?

Yes, I agree with you on Theoden's sickness being quite different in the movies. The movie version actually has Theoden "possessed" from afar by Saruman, giving the movie version Gandalf a chance to "wrestle" with his enemy, Saruman, and establish the fact that Gandalf has now become the master of all the Wizards...

Attachments:

[Stormrider]

Those definitely don't look like the Barrow Downs blades from the Men of Westerness. *Sigh* Shame on PJ for giving no importance to them!

In the movie, didn't Eowyn give Merry his gear and sword in Dunharrow just before they sneak into the Eored? But I do remember Merry kneeling before Theoden pledging himself and I think he had a small sword then. Anyway, I will be coming to that in TTT tomorrow (most likely unless I spend too much time taking Twizzle thru the King's Gondor which leads into Corsairs of Umbar).

I just finished Flotsom and Jetson and the Voice of Saruman. Merry and Pippin relay the events of the Ents destruction of Orthanc to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimili. Very similar to the movie depiction. It was really a great scene in the movie and Merry and Pippin helped while on Treebeard's shoulders. JRRT's version didn't indicate M&P were involved, only observers.

Also The Ents in the book decide to attack Orthanc rather than in the movie they decide against it until they see what Saruman did. I rather prefer the Ents deciding to attack on their own.

[Stormrider]

Well, I won't be reading about Merry's sword today. That will be in Book 5 in ROTK!

Anyway, I like the movie when Gandalf takes Pippin off on Shadowfax after Pippin looks at the Pallantir. You feel that they will miss each other a lot. The book doesn't share their view on their separation...Gandalf just whisks Pippin away and that's that.

So on to Book 4 in TTT. Frodo & Sam & Gollum

[Andorinha]

1) RE Stormy's: "I rather prefer the Ents deciding to attack on their own."

I agree, the book handles this scene better than PJ.! In the book version, it takes a while for the Ents (except the near-hasty Quickbeam) to hear and then weigh all the facts, but then they do explode into a "declaration of war" without any further hesitation.

2) RE Stormy's: "Anyway, I like the movie when Gandalf takes Pippin off on Shadowfax after Pippin looks at the Pallantir. You feel that they will miss each other a lot. The book doesn't share their view on their separation..."

Hmmm, I have the feeling that Merry, partly envious that Pippin gets to ride off with Gandalf, still feels the loss of his companion hobbit sorely. I'll have to re-read this section of LOTR, and see what I think after a refresher...

[Stormrider]

I didn't like PJ's version of Gollum pitting Sam against Frodo as they climbed the stairs, making Frodo think Sam ate all the lembas and wanted the Ring for himself. That always grated on me.

I liked both the book and movie version of the Witch King and his troops leaving their tower for war just as Frodo, Sam, and Gollum sit down to rest right there. The written and visual were right on!

I enjoyed JRRT's version of the encounter with Shelob that both Frodo and Sam were there together and just as Shelob strikes Frodo, Gollum tackles Sam from behind. Rather than PJ having Sam go back down the stairs while Frodo and Gollum go to Shelob's lair.

Although I do like the movie version of Sam's fight with Shelob. That was very exciting having the visual fight although JRRT's was good, too. Also I have to admit that Frodo getting tangled in webs and chased by Shelob was pretty good in the movie.

JRRT made the tunnels just seem black and uneventful with only some things brushing the tops of their heads--no cobwebs to tangle them up in...only the one really heavy one at the end of the tunnel that they needed Sting to cut through.


I'm on to ROTK now.

I will have to see when we get back to Merry while he is with Theoden King if Tolkien writes that Merry misses Pippin. I just started ROTK and Pippin and Gandalf have just arrived in MT, so no input on Pippin's feeling of missing Merry. So much fast riding and getting Gandalf to talk about things like the Palantiri!

[Stormrider]

In TTT, I preferred JRRT's account of Frodo, Sam, Gollum meeting Faramir in Ithilien. I loved how Faramir was honorable and didn't want to bring Frodo to Minas Tirith and Denethor. Faramir understood how Boromir would have wanted to take it as defense but Faramir realized it was a bad idea.

When PJ had Faramir take them to Osgiliath, I said, " NO NO NO!" That was so wrong. In JRRT's ROTK, Beregond Says "Faramir is bold, more bold than many deem; for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls and lore and song, as he is, and yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field. But such is Faramir. Less reckless and eager than Boromir, but not less resolute."

The Barrow swords--Book Version:
Pippin laid his sword at Denethor's feet. Denethor asks for the sword and questions where it came from. He recognizes it's age and says it surely was made by his own kindred in the North.

Merry laid his sword in Theoden's lap who didn't comment on the sword as he would not have recognized it for what it was. (I'm still waiting to get to the section where Merry and Eowyn "Dernhelm" get fitted up and ride with the Eorid) to see if he gets a different sword.

JRRT did mention how Merry and Pippin missed each other. Pippin as he meets with Beregond and Bergil. And Merry while he is with Theoden after Aragorn Legolas Gimili and the Dunadain leave for The Paths of the Dead.

Gotta head out, more commentary in a bit.

[Andorinha]

RE Stormy: "I didn't like PJ's version of Gollum pitting Sam against Frodo as they climbed the stairs, making Frodo think Sam ate all the lembas and wanted the Ring for himself. That always grated on me."

Yeah, absolutely absurd. Not sure what PJ was trying to do here, but these film scenes were totally out of character, unnecessary, just silly.

[Stormrider]

In the book, Eowyn fits Merry with a small helmet, shield, a leather jerkin, belt, and a knife. She acknowledges that he already has a sword. And, of course, she (disguised as Dernhelm) takes Merry with her to ride with the Rohirrim. Yay! I like the surprise of finding out it is her in the book version so was sort of disappointed that we all knew ahead it was her in the movie.

Regarding the light issuing forth when the Witch King sets forth from his tower with the troops, the movie showed that (as mentioned above) and did a great job of it. The movie also showed Gandalf and Pippin seeing the light but the book doesn't mention them seeing it, just how the darkness keeps getting thicker.

Denethor is more nasty to Faramir in the movie version. He seems more petty and crazed.

JRRT depicts Denethor more lordly and knowledgeable. He does give good orders to his troops and shows his leadership. He doesn't get crazed until Faramir is brought to him with his injuries. But he also goes up into the tower with light issuing forth from the windows. Looking into the pallantir.

Also in the book, Denethor has already lit the beacons and sent messengers and red arrows out BEFORE Gandalf, Pippin, and Shadowfax arrive in MT. Pippin comments on the beacons as they ride up. So Denethor was showing good leadership here.

The movie has Gandalf telling Denethor to light them which he refuses, causing Gandalf and Pippin to sneak up the first one and light it. I have to admit the movie depiction of the beacons being lit and lighting up along the mountain range was excellent.

[Stormrider]

Paths of the Dead

Movie: There is no old man sitting outside the entrance to warn them that the way is closed. Strewn with millions of human skulls. The King of the Dead challenges Aragorn inside the main chamber but still follows him. They help take over the Corsairs of Umbar ships. The Dead also swarm onto the Pellenor field and annilate the forces of Sauron. Pretty awesome to watch! Afterwards, Aragorn tells them that their oaths have been filled and they can go rest in peace. Were the Dunadain with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli? I don't recall.

Book: The old man is there and dies after he warns them. The Dunadain also go along with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. They pretty much walk through without much happening except that they can feel the fear. They don't even see the dead even after Aragorn invites them to help fight against Sauron, not until they leave the mountain tunnel. Then JRRT doesn't mention much about them after that. No comment on how they helped defeat the Corsair ships nor how they fought on the Pellenor. Aragorn doesn't release them from their oath and give them peace. I was surprised at that. I always thought there was some comment about them fighting and that Aragorn released them from their oath/curse.

Eowyn, Merry, Theorden, WitchKing

Movie: Quiet exciting. Pretty close to the book as far as Eowyn facing the Witch King. I think even Merry stabs him from behind. I liked the expression of fear on Eowyn's face as she faces off with him. Eowyn crawls to Theoden for his last words, very touching. Then PJ inserts the Orc Lieutenant's quest to come for Eowyn for revenge with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli fighting in the background. The Orc is swept away by the Dead. HaHa! That was pretty good and kind of funny.

Book: Merry has a point of view in the book. He is terrified but very surprised when Dernhelm is actually Eowyn. He snaps into action as he realizes that and refuses to let her fight alone against such a terrible foe. So he sneaks up behind the WK (as his attention is focused on Eowyn) and stabs him in the calf just below his knee which triggers Eowyn to thrust her sword into the WK's face. Eowyn falls face down right on top of the empty WK garments and passes out. Merry is the one who approaches Theoden for the king's final words.

Mumukil

Movie: Tons of Rohirrim fighting with the Mumukil and bringing them down. Even Eowyn and Merry have a role in that. LEgolas does his fighting stunts off the Mumukils.
Book: The horse are afraid of the Mumukil and won't go near them!