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Post by Andorinha on Nov 6, 2004 12:41:19 GMT -6
Recently, on another site where I post as Nolan6, an introductory bit I posted along with my vague attempt at writing up a Tolkienesque novel of my own, was seized upon by one of the site locals and it became the base for a very pertinet discussion on the popularity of Tolkien and some observations regarding the current posting practices on many Tolkien sites. Does this have any applicabilty for Tolkien's Ring? see "There and Back Again" General topic: "LOTR....a passing fancy?" www.thereandbackagain.net/board.html____________________________ From Nolan6: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have been "publishing" this chronicle for a short while now on two other (apparently less robust) Tolkien Sites. One of them has died away indeed, while the other receives no more than a post or two each several days. In skipping about the fields of the Net, I have noticed that many once-promising Tolkien forums are wanning, or frankly dead. Has the Middle-earth phenomenon reached its higest point of flood? Will children born this year grow up to ask (in the next decade or two): "Daddy, what's a 'Gollum?'" I certainly hope not! But, there does seem to be a retrenching movement under way, and a number of the more seriously interested Tolkien students have told me they are casting about for more stable platforms where they may concentrate their efforts and receive the vital interactive play that seems necessary to keep them alert, thinking and productive. Now some might find it ominous that each time I enter fully into my own Tolkienesque stride, another Tolkien Site dies...* But I protest! It must surely only be coincidental! In fact, I am so certain that my own vague attempts at creative writing are NOT the proximal cause of these declines -- or I should not transfer my Jonah-pages here -- that I will proceed upon this TABA platform (if the editor-managers will allow it) to finish out my simple tale. ________ *Both sites, I swear, were demonstrably in their death-rattle stages long before I started posting this small effort. No, honest, really!
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 7, 2004 8:30:48 GMT -6
I am sure we have all noticed that posting and discussing Tolkien's works has slowed down considerably here at Tolkien's Ring. I have tried to boost everyone's spirits and encourage discussion to continue. I don't think it will ever be as intense as it was when we first began TR.
I have changed the "look" to the golden leather theme, have moved to the new proboards message board, and have linked to the old MSN site for posterity--I don't want us to lose all of those "choice" discussions.
Before the movies, I had read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings many times since I first discovered them in 1969. Perhaps not every year nor every other year, but at least 10 to 12 times in that 35 year span!
I think that the books will last and survive all the ages to come just as some of the other old classics have. Tolkien's Middle earth is just so real and the themes so applicable to everyone. Different people will be affected by the themes in different ways and even perhaps differently in each reading. Even if language and writing styles change (like Beowulf for instance), Tolkien's story can be rewritten into whatever form is current.
I am worried now that the movies have been made that people may opt to "watch" Lord of the Rings rather than "read" it--it is quicker to watch than to read the whole thing! (Although many people who had only seen the movies did purchase the books and read them.) I certainly hope those that watch will also read after seeing the movies. The books have much more to them than the movies.
I am glad that I had read the books first before seeing the movies. I still prefer my own visions conjured up while reading than the movie images. I have to applaude Megn for not wanting to see the movies and to keep her own "true" images and interpretations unsullied by the movies.
I think the books will always be classics (and even the movies). I think people will continue to read them and watch them. I am surprised though after all three movies have been out now at how many people still do not know what Gollum, a Balrog, a Nazgûl, or Frodo are! There are still people out there who have not been touched by this story!
I hope to keep Tolkien's Ring active for a long time. I would love for all of us to continue posting and discussing as we did at the old site. But the initial excitement of finding others who have been held spellbound by Tolkien's works and having posted back and forth as we did on the MSN forum has dwindled down and every day life as taken hold of us.
I know it has been a "precious" experience for me and I have thoroughly enjoyed all of your posts and fellowship. I still hope to keep these boards active and I hope you all do, too. So participate as often as you can...that is all that I ask.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Nov 7, 2004 9:34:32 GMT -6
I know for me I will always have Tolkien and Middle-earth in my heart and on my bookshelf. I plan to keep reading the books through out my life time and now with the movies I can pop them in and watch.
I don't think Tolkien will be a fad for those that are truely fans. Even the actors that played the parts have formed an amazing bond and fellowship from reading the books and making the movies. I do hope that here at TR we can still get some great discussions going, though I have to admit discussions and stating my opinions are my weak points. I still have not bought the Sil yet and I am very very slowly making my way through Unfinished Tales. So as I get to those new stories I may have questions that need answering and I will turn to everyone here at TR.
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 8, 2004 7:30:02 GMT -6
I think when we first joined the BNU class just before the FOTR movie came out, we were just overjoyed in finding others like ourselves who were very intense about Middle earth. The fact that we had others who we could talk to about some of the things that had always baffled, excited, or overwhelmed us and who actually CARED what we had to say and thought was what triggered our passions for posting on the boards. Now that we have found each other and have shared our fellowship and thoughts, we have settled into a comfortable silence....we know we are here and that if we have something to share, we can post it here.
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Post by MajahTR on Nov 8, 2004 9:11:22 GMT -6
i first came into Tolkien 30 plus years ago during a wave of popularity with us "hippies"! it was a loooong sometimes lonely journey from then until i was excited to find the Barnes and Noble class (which i took to refresh myself befor the movies started) and ultimately TR. i do think a lot of the rise in sites and fans came from the movies, although most of them were then compelled to read the books and become a fan of those too... however, it is the nature of the entertainment world AND of the internet to move on quickly to the next exciting prospect. they are by products of the fulfill-me-fast mentality. i agree with Storm that this is a good comfortable place to come to and i suspect it will wax and wane depending on what happens out there in the cosmos... please Andorinha...always share with us? you are one of the writers that give our site it's depth and interest...i am sorry when you do not have members commenting as often but believe me when i say most of us read... some are just 'fraid to add our two bushels worth! trust me...you will not be the 'death' of us...you are what puts fresh breath into our lungs! off to the mines... have a good Monday all... Majah
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Post by Desi Baggins on Nov 8, 2004 11:52:23 GMT -6
I will add that I always read your post, Andorinha, so keep up the good work. Like I have said I am not one to type anything intellectual, but I love to read it so I know it for my own personal understanding.
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 8, 2004 13:37:17 GMT -6
Stormrider: I think the new format here has provided us all with a visually more pleasing site than many of the Tolkien urls I post at, in fact, I think it the most comfortable of them all! You, and the other administrative heads here, deserve nothing but praise for your painstaking efforts in this regard! THANK YOU ALL!
What I am most interested in, for the purposes of this particular discussion, has little to do with TR itself, but concerns a web-wide decrease in Tolkien postings. Small sites like ours here, and enormously huge sites like TABA, and sites strung out somewhere intermediately in terms of membership, have all experienced drastic fall-offs in participation. What's up?
Desi makes it plain that there are Tolkien fans who may be quite engaged in quiet ways with the material presented in his Middle-earth books, and I'll bet that the greater portion of Tolkien readers follow this line, content to interact with the books on a personal, probably daily basis, but not interested in posting to a network forum. I am also certain that there will always be a lively market for JRRT, at least off-net, and I presume book sales are still high.
At several other sites where this discussion is still current, we still have come up with no real reason(s) for the drop in Tolkien posts on the net. Some point to "reader-writer" burnout, others mention the rush of initial enthusiasm that wanes as individuals exhaust their favorite topics, etc.
So far, the only really consistent response has been (from a polling of opinions found on four other sites) that the internet response to Tolkien may be seriously falling off of late, but Tolkien readers are still buying and digesting the works on their own. Does this situation represent a peaking of the general Tolkien phenomenon, or is it just another cycle of inter-net faddism? I am not yet sure. I suppose we could track not only internet Tolkien responses, but also should cross-index these figures with book sales to judge whether or not Tolkien has hit his flood and is now ebbing to a less numerous but equally devoted readership?
Thanks for the responses! And my own, natural logorrhea, will probably keep me posting on a wide variety of subjects for as long as I can find an open forum.
By the by, is there any way I can help subsidize this forum? I am totally ignorant of the costs involved, and I assume the inter-net providers are charging someone something to keep the place running, and since my effusions are taking up a good deal of the available space, I might as well chip-in.
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Post by Fangorn on Nov 9, 2004 16:25:21 GMT -6
I will add my two copper pieces to this discussion. I think many of the reasons cited already are very valid points. One reason I would like to add, is that TOO MANY Tolkien sites have sprung up, with everyone jumping on the Bandwagon when the movies reached the height of their popularity. This caused the enormous, but still limited fan base to become too spread out, with everyone finally settling into the groups they liked the most. Some sites appealed to the visual, interactive types like CoE and Tolkien Fanatics, which offers clan pages and contest galore. Still some of the smaller sites like McDLT's and here, appear to cater to the more intellectually inclined.
I believe there will be a thinning out process, wherein the sites that continue to strive to improve their offerings and stay on the tops of search engines, will continue to thrive, maybe even picking up membership as less sites become available. I know at my site, Tolkien Entmoot, we have added Clan Pages, and I am constantly trying to add more link exchanges, and other membership ideas to keep things lively. I guess only time will tell, but even the news sites like ToRN seemed worried. I think if you just care about Tolkien and reflect it in your site, you can survive. It takes a level of commitment, (and in my case, money), to stay on top of your game. (and of course it helps greatly, to have a member like Andorhina provide much needed stimulus!)
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 10, 2004 6:17:24 GMT -6
Fangorn: I think you are correct in the number of sites that sprang up when word that the movies were in the works. If we had thought about it in the first place when we were in the BNU class, we might just have joined an already active site rather than start up one of our own! Although it would not have been so quaint of a gathering. There are so many sites out there and I have jumped around at many of them, but it becomes very time consuming and takes away from attending to TR. Andorinha: Thank you for your kind offer of support! That is very generous of you, however, this site is free! and so was the MSN format. There are paid versions of both set-ups if we want to go there, but so far what we have is just perfect for us. From time to time we have tried to make contests, marathon chats, and studies fun and more interesting by offering some prizes and we have always tried to garner the monies for those from the meager $1 or $2 profit on our store products. But we really don't have much sales there. So if any of our members would really like to help, that would be my best suggestion--plus you get some very good quality products, too. Actually, we need to revamp those shops and rotate some of the art on the products, especially with the holidays approaching. There are some new products that we should put in the shop, too. Hmmm... Majah?! Desi?! We should discuss this and get going on it! Does anyone have a preference for the type of art you would like to see on shirts, caps, mouse pads, sweatshirts, buttons, magnets, etc. etc.? Would you like something that says just plain "Tolkien's Ring" with the URL on it or some of our artist's art?
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Post by McDLT on Nov 24, 2004 9:27:32 GMT -6
I have noticed in my forums (only one of which is Tolkien) that there are also cycles to forums. There will be down days, weeks, and months. The one thing I noticed which helps attracts members and people posting is consistancy. As long as you have a few dedicated people who keep posting others will notice and others will come back. ;D
I know real life has a big influence on my time. I do try to come on here once a week and check to see what's happening.
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2005 8:17:26 GMT -6
Just "up-dating" this line:
I have been a long-time devotee of the Middle-earth phenomenon, and I can recall a college professor of Eng Lit (1967) who once asked me why I was doing a book report on a silly fantasy filled with such absurd characters as this Frodo Baggins "thing with hairy feet." I remember when Tolkien stalwarts used to scrawl "Frodo Lives!" on classroom chalk boards, and the prevailing answer was "Who's Frodo? Does he fit in with Harpo, Groucho, and Zeppo?"
Tolkien's LotR books were available from the mid fifties on, and seemed to sell only just enough copies to keep them from being remaindered. But, times changed as the "baby boomers" came of age, and the certainties of the 50's (we had just validated our culture, our economic system, our political system, our values by winning WW II, don't cha know?) became the insecurities of the 60s and 70s.
Suddenly "fantasy," and suddenly "escapism" were in vogue, and Tolkien's deep message of hope, his confidence that there still can be a "happy ending" struck a sympathetic chord with many Vietnam era, troubled minds. After 1965, LotR and The Hobbit sold like hotcakes. Since then, I think the mere statistics of book sales show Tolkien's writings are still enormously consumer-effective -- but, has the interest peaked?
If Tolkien could be largely ignored in the 50's, it is possible that public needs and public tastes in literature will change again in the future. Can the "Author of the Century," the 20th Century, become the "Who's Tolkien?" of the 21st? Maybe.
For those of us who really "live" in Middle-earth, I think there should be no grave alteration in our enjoyment of Tolkien's works, whether current levels of his booksales drop off, or not; and if the "Media" lose interest, and even if the Professor is no longer mentioned in 30 second vid-bytes, I can still live in Middle-earth. In fact, many of us will undoubtedly die, toothless as Gollum, hairless as Gollum, wrinkled-up and dessicated as Gollum - but still clutching our first copies of the LotR (mine is the first edition 1965 BB paperback that sold then for 95 cents - so "precious" I keep it in an air tight container, hoarded away from the sun, protected from its own acid paper in the freezer, while I drip coffee on my later,"expensive" hardbound edition).
I do not doubt that Tolkien will still command a handsome following a hundred years from now, but I do wonder if the broad wash of his popularity has spent its main energies?
I think crucial to an understanding of this point are the statements by Majah and Fangorn concerning the impact of the visual versions from the movies. I certainly agree that there were many, many marginal, movie-boom sites run up after 2002, and I expect that a large number of the now "vanished" groups were of this caliber. But, most of the Tolkien Sites I once joined, were started back in the mid-late nineties when no one thought that the money squabbles surrounding movie rights would ever be settled. Many of these early sites had dedicated, "scholarly" writers diligently cranking out "three-part" essays complete with cited bibliographic references and explanatory footnotes. Alas, these "wonder-forums" are all but gone. Some have a sort of continued, "life-support" existance, but they have become social clubs where hobbit recepies are exchanged, and the caliber of writing rarely rises above the level of "WOW! I sure do think that Frodo was a kewl dude! Wish I was a Hobbit!" Others are just plain gone.
There was a brief influx of new members as the movies finally hit the screen, and a vast host of "movie-Tolkien" discussion was generated, but it often had little to do with the books themselves -- remember the "I just LUV Legolas-Orlando" phase? I think now, most "casual," movie-watcher fans have trickled back into the woodwork. Luckily, a few readers from that surge have remained, and most of them express the sentiment that they find the books far surpass the movies. So our "hard-core" fanatic-reader element has received some recruitment, but how many, and, how long will they stay?
The basic fact I cannot disregard, is that so many, once thriving, book-oriented, pre-movie Tolkien Sites have fallen upon hard times. Is this something we should be concerned about? Is it something that we can take steps to check, and maybe even reverse? I hope so!
Maybe I'm just being selfish here, but I seem to have still so much to say/ discuss and learn from/ about the Middle-earth corpus and my fellow readers. Will I wind up posting in a vacuum, and then resort to answering my own posts!? AGGGGGG!!! I do hope not.
One of the more academically-oriented sites I still contribute to, has dwindled from 106 members to only four actives, perhaps because the kind of effort required to produce "foot-noted" expositions just became too great. As members exhausted their favorite topics, they one by one fell away.
At another "pre-movie" site, there was, I think, too much emphasis on socializing, too much "I wanna be a hobbit" posting. Eventually, its three or four "serious" writers went elsewhere, leaving a fairly happy, homogenous rump behind, though I do not think they ever string more than three or four sentences together in a single post, and rarely do they actually talk about Tolkien or his writing.
In this regard I think that there is a lot that can be done to keep the membership rolls healthy and active. One positive step is to realize that different people enjoy Tolkien for quite different reasons. A flexible posting forum that addresses the needs of reader-enthusiasts whose reading/ writing comprehensions, tastes, and interests are at different levels is vitally important.
From what I've seen here at TR, despite the periodic fall-offs in activity, I think there is enough variety in the types of posts, the available activities (RP, quizzes, riddles, trivia lines, poetry, artwork etc) to keep this a healthy Tolkien community. We'll see...
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Post by Fangorn on Jan 16, 2005 4:58:31 GMT -6
If you build it, they will come......
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Post by MajahTR on Jan 16, 2005 10:59:55 GMT -6
i have been thinking on this again... (scarey i know?) i guess the time needed to read and to do my Tolkien inspired artwork is a huge chunk of my "free" time so i know i don't feel i have nearly enough time to spend in here discussing it. i very rarely go to any other Tolkien sites because the first two i committed to were TR and Fang's Entmoot site and that is where i choose to spend my "free" puter time. so i am selfish in the fact that i want to read everyone's wonderful insights and discussions here in the convenience of my own "home"....even if my participation is sorely lacking! all i can do now is promise to try but as you all know, you are sooooooo far ahead of me on the Tolkien-rictor scale that i will ALWAYS be gaining more from your insights then you will be from mine!!! happy mellow sunday, Majah and here's another of my dirty secrets... i kinda liked it when you had to be "in the closet" with a Tolkien obsession! there was a bit of smugness that went along with you because you knew all "those" other people just didn't get it...and you did! now Middle-earth has become so mainstream so when you call someone a "snaggy orc" when they cut in line in front of you...they understand!!!
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Post by almmarae on Jan 16, 2005 12:35:45 GMT -6
I feel like such a late-comer to the phenom. I read the books in college and then followed a variety of other paths far from Middle Earth, only returning to Tolkien after the movies piqued my interest. I only had a small taste of the sites and excitement you all have enjoyed.
I wonder....if we had a magic ring like Nenya, would we, too, embalm our tiny segment of Middle Earth? Would we keep the fever pitch of enthusiasm and creativity flowing as we swam around in a sea of more postings than we could possibly drink in? I think it is an interesting temptation...to keep things as they were when they were at their best. And so it is ironic that one of the lessons of LOTR (at least for me) is that things must move on and even diminish. It is a natural law.
I am in a better position than most. My job currently puts me in contact with young people who are often encountering LOTR for the first time. I get to repeat my discoveries and offer my insights to a new audience every year. (My own form of an embalmed environment I suppose.)
But where do we go from here? I'm still working out my answer to that. For now I am putting my feet up by the fire of this site and reveling in your company. We care about the same things together and by extension, we care about each other. This kind of acceptance has nourished me; I don't think I will ever truly believe that I am alone, that there is no one who cares about the things I value in the way I care, because I have found, remarkably, so many other people who care. Even when our real life Anduins have swept us far from each other, I will always have the memories of these times.
And...I will do what I can to spread the word of Tolkien's remarkable words...his images and insights and challenges to the reader. I will battle any 'fluffly fantasy' mentality wherever I find it. And I will take heart, afterall Shakespeare is still 'alive' isn't he?
with gratitude for a place to share my thoughts,
almarae
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 17, 2005 8:14:04 GMT -6
Last week we had one of my husband's friends over to visit. We don't see him very often at all--once or twice a year perhaps.
We sat down at my computer because my husband wanted to look up something for his friend on it; and, of course, my computer room is filled with my LOTR sourveniers, posters, books, 3D Meduseld puzzle, and action figures!
I was very surprised to find out that our friend had never heard of LOTR! The books OR the movies! I thought for sure everyone had heard about LOTR at least from the movies!
Anyway, I started telling him about it and mentioning some of the exciting and interesting things in the story that have captivated me for all these years, and I think he is going to rent the movies. (He would have borrowed mine except mine are DVDs and he has a VHS). I told him he should really read the books first, but I don't think he is much of a reader.
I just can't believe that there are people still out there that have not heard about LOTR by now! And that amazes me! We can still recruit! lol!
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