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Post by PaleAndFair on Jan 18, 2005 19:39:15 GMT -6
It is not Éowyns valor or strength of will that I admire, because I feel that in such we are akin, but her fiery passions and high emotions and the fact that she got a chance to express them. It was her grief at being refused by Aragorn as lover and companion (as well as frustration at being “chosen” to be left behind) that drove her to ride as a man, and to seek death. As Gandalf said ====It was an evil doom that set her in his path. =====. The one that showed Grate valor and bravery was Merry. He wished to serve his Lord, ===='even if you bid me ride with you on the Paths of the Dead.'==== Well, that is how I see the matter. Here is some quotes for study, Sincerely, Jennifer.
“With that the king stood up, and they all rose. 'Go now each to your rest.' he said, 'and sleep well. And you, Master Meriadoc, I need no more tonight. But be ready to my call as soon as the Sun is risen.' 'I will be ready,' said Merry, 'even if you bid me ride with you on the Paths of the Dead.' 'Speak not words of omen!' said the king. 'For there may be more roads than one that could bear that name. But I did not say that I would bid you ride with me on any road. Good night!'”<br> 'Alas! For she was pitted against a foe beyond the strength of her mind or body. =========================For she is a fair maiden, fairest lady of a house of queens. And yet I know not how I should speak of her. When I first looked on her and perceived her unhappiness, it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. Or was it, maybe, a frost that had turned its sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die? Her malady begins far back before this day, does it not, Éomer?' 'I marvel that you should ask me, lord,' he answered. 'For I hold you blameless in this matter, as in all else; yet I knew not that Éowyn, my sister, was touched by any frost, until she first looked on you. Care and dread she had, and shared with me, in the days of Wormtongue and the king's bewitchment; and she tended the king in growing fear. But that did not bring her to this pass!' 'My friend,' said Gandalf, 'you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on. 'Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden's ears? _Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?_ etc...... Then Éomer was silent, and looked on his sister, as if pondering anew all the days of their past life together. But Aragorn said: 'I saw also what you saw, Éomer. Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left her desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear for what might befall her. And yet, Éomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan. 'I have, maybe, the power to heal her body, and to recall her from the dark valley. But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring. Alas! for her deeds have set her among the queens of great renown.' ======================== It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden, answered Éowyn. 'And those who have not swords can still die upon them. Would you have the folk of Gondor gather you herbs only, when the Dark Lord gathers armies? And it is not always good to be healed in body. Nor is it always evil to die in battle, even in bitter pain. Were I permitted, in this dark hour I would choose the latter.' The Warden looked at her. Tall she stood there, her eyes bright in her white face, her hand clenched as she turned and gazed out of his window that opened to the East. He sighed and shook his head. After a pause she turned to him again. ====================== 'Where can I find him?' =================== And coming, the Warden spoke his name, and he turned and saw the Lady Éowyn of Rohan; and he was moved with pity, for he saw that she was hurt, and his clear sight perceived her sorrow and unrest. 'My lord,' said the Warden, 'here is the Lady Éowyn of Rohan. She rode with the king and was sorely hurt, and dwells now in my keeping. But she is not content, and she wishes to speak to the Steward of the City.' 'Do not misunderstand him, lord,' said Éowyn. 'It is not lack of care that grieves me. No houses could be fairer, for those who desire to be healed. But I cannot lie in sloth, idle, caged. I looked for death in battle. But I have not died, and battle still goes on.' =========== 'What would you have me do, lady?' said Faramir. 'I also am a prisoner of the healers.' He looked at her, and being a man whom pity deeply stirred, it seemed to him that her loveliness amid her grief would pierce his heart. And she looked at him and saw the grave tenderness in his eyes, and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle. 'What do you wish?' he said again. 'If it lies in my power, I will do it.' 'I would have you command this Warden, and bid him let me go,' she said; but though her words were still proud, her heart faltered, and for the first time she doubted herself. She guessed that this tall man, both stern and gentle, might think her merely wayward, like a child that has not the firmness of mind to go on with a dull task to the end. 'I myself am in the Warden's keeping,' answered Faramir. 'Nor have I yet taken up my authority in the City. But had I done so, I should still listen to his counsel, and should not cross his will in matters of his craft, unless in some great need.' 'But I do not desire healing,' she said. 'I wish to ride to war like my brother Éomer, or better like Théoden the king, for he died and has both honour and peace.' 'It is too late, lady, to follow the Captains, even if you had the strength,' said Faramir. 'But death in battle may come to us all yet, willing or unwilling. You will be better prepared to face it in your own manner, if while there is still time you do as the Healer commanded. You and I, we must endure with patience the hours of waiting.' She did not answer, but as he looked at her it seemed to him that something in her softened, as though a bitter frost were yielding at the first faint presage of Spring. ========== 'Alas, not me, lord!' she said. 'Shadow lies on me still. Look not to me for healing! I am a shieldmaiden and my hand is ungentle. But I thank you for this at least, that I need not keep to my chamber. ===================== And Éowyn did not go, though her brother sent word begging her to come to the field of Cormallen. And Faramir wondered at this, but he saw her seldom, being busy with many matters; and she dwelt still in the Houses of Healing and walked alone in the garden, and her face grew pale again, and it seemed that in all the City she only was ailing and sorrowful. And the Warden of the Houses was troubled, and he spoke to Faramir. Then Faramir came and sought her, and once more they stood on the walls together; etc... he said: 'you do not go, because only your brother called for you, and to look on the Lord Aragorn, Elendil's heir, in his triumph would now bring you no joy. Or because I do not go, and you desire still to be near me. And maybe for both these reasons, and you yourself cannot choose between them. Éowyn, do you not love me, or will you not?' 'I wished to be loved by another,' she answered. 'But I desire no man's pity.' 'That I know,' he said. 'You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle. Look at me, Éowyn!' And Éowyn looked at Faramir long and steadily; and Faramir said: 'Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Éowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Éowyn, do you not love me?' Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her. I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun, she said; and behold the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer do I desire to be a queen,' she said.
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 20, 2005 5:35:10 GMT -6
PaleAndFair:
An intriguing topic, thank you for posting it!
I am not a great fan of Eowyn's, although I found her "masculine" actions refreshing in a book that many feel has few strong, useful female characters, that are suitable for modern women to associate themselves with. Galadriel is another strong woman who does not fit victorian stereotypes of gender-role assigment, and then there is Goldberry. But both of these characters are special creatures, not really human, and neither goes off to engage in hand-to-hand combat. Eowyn is very special then, she challenges the mores of her society and achieves a measure of heroic success that brings her quite up to her brother's level.
With the association of the Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxon germanic tradition, Eowyn does not look so startlingly out of place. She belongs to the category of "Shield Maidens" in her culture, perhaps a vague hint of the Nordic Valkyries?
But I never stopped to consider just why she joins the host. Was she being tempermentally tom-boyish? Apparently not! Now that I think on it, she is depicted as Dernhelm, as having a grim look about the face, no hope, just a determination to fight and die. I assumed her desperation came largely from her belief that all of the western cause was doomed and that none of them would survive the coming clash at Minas Tirith. I also thought that her hopeless love of Aragorn added to this depression, but was a minor element in her fierce determination to "do AND die." Now I'm not so sure. Was she really more motivated by the passions of her "lost love" than her lost hope of Rohan's survival in the war? Was she so willing to die because her newly returned uncle and king, Theoden was presumed dead (and would soon die), and she herself was failing under the effects of the Black Breath and a broken arm? I believe she also fell unconscious before she could have known that the tide of the battle had turned and that there was a chance for the survival of her folk.
But now, you make me think that her despair over "losing" Aragorn may have been more a factor of her near deadly despair than I thought.
Well, those of the TR membership who make a special study of Eowyn, what do you think, Lost Love, or Despair at having to fight what she thought must be a losing battle -- which one was more influential in her collapse?
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jan 21, 2005 0:55:19 GMT -6
I'm a big fan of Eowyn so I'd like to weigh in on this. It's been a while since I read the books so my perspective may be heavily influenced by the movies' interpretation. Still, here it is. I don't think there was any one factor that caused Eowyn to pursue the path she did. There were a variety of things that contributed to her anger and despair.
She was constantly being protected (or in her view, coddled) by Theoden and Eomer, rather than being allowed to choose her own destiny. The one thing Eowyn feared most was a cage and she felt trapped by their actions.
She wanted to fight for her country but her family seemed to want a different fate for her. She was to be left behind as Theoden's heir, once again denying her the right to fight for her people. One can argue that this was done with noble intentions (looking out for Rohan and for Eowyn's well-being) but it still infuriated her.
The doomed nature of Rohan's battle was a factor as well and if they were all to die, Eowyn preferred to go out in a blaze of glory, not to cower in a sanctuary with women and children waiting for the end.
Aragorn's rejection of her love was simply the final straw, in my opinion. It wasn't the only thing that drove her to a seeming suicide mission. By that point, she had a family that (in her mind) didn't care about her wishes, an uncle that was riding off to his death, a potential lover lost, and the world seemed to be coming to an end. Under those circumstances, Eowyn wanted to live out her final moments under her own terms.
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2005 7:39:29 GMT -6
Andorinha said
Both JRRT's written word and the movies do not depict the rest of the women of Rohan in a shield maiden role. The women are sent into the safer areas of Helm's Deep while the men fight. If JRRT did intend for women to be shield maidens, where were they then and why weren't they put into action at Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields?
Could this be part of Éowyn's anger? Some of the women were training as shield maidens but are never called to fulfil their calling. Perhaps Éowyn's cage and trapped feeling stems from this. She wants to put her skills to use. It is as if the role of shield maiden is something the men have provided their women to placate them and is only meant as a last ditch effort at defense when all else fails.
I agree with Fredegar that she did not wish to stay back and be Théoden's heir in a world where possibly all the good men were slain in battle and the Dark Lord would reign over all. In that viewpoint, who could blame her for wanting to lend her blade to battle and do her best to stop the forces of Sauron. Éowyn wants to put her experience to use and try to avoid having to use the last ditch effort I mentioned above before it gets that far! That was why she took Merry along with her--she understood his need to do the same.
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Post by PaleAndFair on Jan 21, 2005 9:28:01 GMT -6
I am in inspired by your take on this subject! :-* And yes you are right, the Love lost was just the last straw. In this chunk I have here, you can see that all her emotions are blended together and boiling over to form for her a cup too bitter to endure. :'(
Do you ppl mind me adding so much text from the Books? ???
Yours, Jennifer. :-*
'Aragorn,' she said, 'why will you go on this deadly road?' 'Because I must,' he said. 'Only so can I see any hope of doing my part in the war against Sauron. I do not choose paths of peril, Éowyn. Were I to go where my heart dwells, far in the North I would now be wandering in the fair valley of Rivendell.' For a while she was silent, as if pondering what this might mean. Then suddenly she laid her hand on his arm. 'You are a stern lord and resolute,' she said; 'and thus do men win renown.' She paused. 'Lord.' she said, 'if you must go, then let me ride in your following. For I am weary of skulking in the hills, and wish to face peril and battle.' 'Your duty is with your people,' he answered. 'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?' 'Few may do that with honour,' he answered. 'But as for you, lady: did you not accept the charge to govern the people until their lord's return? If you had not been chosen, then some marshal or captain would have been set in the same place, and he could not ride away from his charge, were he weary of it or no.' 'Shall I always be chosen?' she said bitterly. 'Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?' 'A time may come soon,' said he, 'when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.' And she answered: 'All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.' 'What do you fear, lady?' he asked. 'A cage,' she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.' 'And yet you counselled me not to adventure on the road that I had chosen, because it is perilous?' 'So may one counsel another,' she said. 'Yet I do not bid you flee from peril, but to ride to battle where your sword may win renown and victory. I would not see a thing that is high and excellent cast away needlessly.' 'Nor would I,' he said. 'Therefore I say to you, lady: Stay! For you have no errand to the South.' 'Neither have those others who go with thee. They go only because they would not be parted from thee – because they love thee.' Then she turned and vanished into the night. When the light of day was come into the sky but the sun was not yet risen above the high ridges in the East, Aragorn made ready to depart. His company was all mounted, and he was about to leap into the saddle, when the Lady Éowyn came to bid them farewell. She was clad as a Rider and girt with a sword. In her hand she bore a cup, and she set it to her lips and drank a little, wishing them good speed; and then she gave the cup to Aragorn, and he drank, and he said: 'Farewell, Lady of Rohan! I drink to the fortunes of your House, and of you, and of all your people. Say to your brother: beyond the shadows we may meet again!' Then it seemed to Gimli and Legolas who were nearby that she wept, and in one so stern and proud that seemed the more grievous. But she said: 'Aragorn, wilt thou go?' 'I will,' he said. 'Then wilt thou not let me ride with this company, as I have asked?' 'I will not, lady,' he said. 'For that I could not grant without leave of the king and of your brother; and they will not return until tomorrow. But I count now every hour, indeed every minute. Farewell!' Then she fell on her knees, saying: 'I beg thee!' 'Nay, lady,' he said, and taking her by the hand he raised her. Then he kissed her hand, and sprang into the saddle, and rode away, and did not look back; and only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore. But Éowyn stood still as a figure carven in stone, her hands clenched at her sides, and she watched them until they passed into the shadows under the black Dwimorberg, the Haunted Mountain, in which was the Gate of the Dead. When they were lost to view, she turned, stumbling as one that is blind, and went back to her lodging.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jan 21, 2005 9:35:13 GMT -6
I think it was just her personality that made her a bold and strong woman. Even in today's society some woman will join the military and others don't. She just happened to be born into a royal status and it would have looked bad for her to be sent off to be in such a dangerous battle.
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Post by Fanuidhol on Jan 22, 2005 6:38:23 GMT -6
I’d like to delve alittle deeper into this comment by Andorinha: “With the association of the Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxon germanic tradition, Eowyn does not look so startlingly out of place. She belongs to the category of "Shield Maidens" in her culture, perhaps a vague hint of the Nordic Valkyries?”<br> I believe that Andorinha was suggesting that the culture of the Rohirrim was based on the Anglo-Saxon/Germanic/Nordic cultures which contained instances of “Shieldmaidens” both factually and in myth. Eowyn was an example of this part of the culture. However, Stormrider is right that she is the only female found in battle. In “The Battle of Pelennor Fields”, Imrahil asks “Have even the women of the Rohirrim come to war in our need?” The answer is “Nay, only one.”<br> Indulge me a little since I am not prepared to defend this statement with citations: the Germanic culture in which the Anglo-Saxons came from honored war and the warrior. I know this from reading various things throughout my life.
So, let’s believe that the Rohirrim feel the same way. Theoden’s last remarks to Merry on Pelennor Fields may suggest that the warrior is honored. Theoden is now not ashamed to die, because he can hold his head up high among his ancestors.
Moving back in time some, Eowyn, a capable person, is rendered almost invisible by having to wait upon an ineffectual “warrior king” immobilized by fear and despair. The whole country is made impotent by this despair. All Eowyn can do is watch while this happens. At least Theodred can fight and die honorably. Eomer, though “distrusted” can still take action, at least until imprisonment. Even when Theoden awakes from despair, she is left in a state of impotence at Edoras.
What she sees in Aragorn is “a hope of glory and great deeds” (Houses of Healing) physically away from the place of dishonor, away from Edoras. She doesn’t love Aragorn, the man. She loves Aragorn, the General. But, even he denies her hope for glory. She falls into despair over this dishonor, wishes to die (and still despairs even into the “Steward and the King” chapter). Unfortunately she also knows, as the disobedient Dernhelm, she can fight and die, but, she will not receive the glory and honor that she craves. She doesn’t do it for Rohan or romantic love. It is because she cannot have personal glory and honor as a warrior, or as a queen. We cannot judge her for this by our modern values. She is a product of her culture.
She does love her King. As the Rohirrim get close to the battle, she moves forward to fight beside him. And she is willing to die for him, “faithful beyond fear”. (Battle of Pelennor Fields) At this moment, in front of the Witchking she embodies all the best found in the Northern tradition. Loyalty and bravery until death. This is why I love this character. This is why I cry every time I read (or see) the scene. Thanks, Fan
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 24, 2005 5:11:58 GMT -6
Hmmm, TR has a "ten thousand" word limit, so I'll break this into two parts before the site mechanics refuse it altogether...
Part 1:
RE: Fredegar -- "Aragorn's rejection of her love was simply the final straw, in my opinion. It wasn't the only thing that drove her to a seeming suicide mission. By that point, she had a family that (in her mind) didn't care about her wishes, an uncle that was riding off to his death, a potential lover lost, and the world seemed to be coming to an end. Under those circumstances, Eowyn wanted to live out her final moments under her own terms. " (emphasis mine)
Nicely put, Fredegar. I see here a slight Freudian opportunity -- LOL! An "alienated" Eowyn, possessed of a spirit that equals her brother's, but is constrained by social convention to play a gender defined role. In similar circumstances (in real life) this has sometimes led to a feeling among some women that they would rather have been born male. But I do not see any passage in JRRT (who certainly knew of George Sand!) to indicate that Eowyn would ever prefer to have been born a male? She seems, as you say, strong-willed enough to take control of her life, social regulations notwithstanding, to chose her own end, to "live out her final moments under her own terms."
Re: Stormrider -- "If JRRT did intend for women to be shield maidens, where were they then and why weren't they put into action at Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields?"
Excellent question! In many, many ways, JRRT is more conservative than the ancient Germanic (or I should say Teutonic) ancestors from whom he is descended. Norse mythology largely recovered for us in the 8th - 10th centuries sagas) does have shield maidens, both divine and mortal, they do engage in battle, and the mortal shield women can, and do die in the shocks of war. Tolkien, when he calls Eowyn a "shield maiden" is drawing on this literary tradition, and making it a part of the Rohirrim culture. Eowyn is invested with the accouterments of military power when she is given both a sword and a corslet by Theoden. Are we to view these gifts as nothing more than symbols? Maybe. But in the earlier days of the Horse Folk, as in the earlier days of the Teutonic tribes (Anglo-Saxon-Frisian-Jute groups) such a woman might indeed be expected to draw that blade and actually strike her people's foes with it.
By the time we meet the Rohirrim, they seem more settled, more civilized than the initial "hordes" who followed Eorl out of the north, and I suppose females were less and less called upon to bear and use arms as time wore away in Rohan? Certainly JRRT (with his Victorian value system) approaches the topic of shield maidens at a very strongly oblique angle. He just barely mentions the title "shield maiden" and then skirts the issue, never telling us that the current Rohirrim actually use women in battle, unless at the very end of things when they have leave to defend their own lives.
Nonetheless, Eowyn rides a battle-charger rather well, bears up the weight of a helmet, a steel corslet (at least 25 pounds, possibly as much as 50 if she has a full hauberk!) a shield and a spear. She wields her brand effectively enough to assist in the dispatching of the High Nazgul, which also argues she has had some training with a blade. Maybe she got this skill on her own, in secret, maybe she got it as a part of the training given to a group of select women? Eowyn herself is given these words by JRRT, that seem, to me, to indicate that she has some official status as a warrior in her folk: "But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry nurse?" and "I can ride and wield blade..." ("The Passing of the Grey Company," pp. 815 -816, Omnibus ed LotR)
Eowyn expects Aragorn to recognize the term (shieldmaiden) and to grant her wish "to face peril and battle" because of this staus. Apparently then, "shieldmaiden" is not just an empty honorific title, it seems to mean that she has a recognized capacity to serve as a warrior -- if she is allowed to do so. Aragorn, perhaps being from an older, more "cultured" people, seems a bit shocked by her attitude, after all, his own women do not take up swords and troop off to war (despite the movie putting a blade in Arwen's hand!).
Here, although you are certainly correct to point out that we have no confirmation from Tolkien, it seems "plausible" that there was a "shieldmaiden" unit somewhere, but that it was not put to much use. Your statement makes good sense to me: "Could this be part of Éowyn's anger? Some of the women were training as shield maidens but are never called to fulfil their calling."
RE: PaleAndFair -- "... the Love lost was just the last straw..." Yeah, I agre with Fredegar on this point too! And I don't mind the quotes, so long as they don't go beyond the copywrite fair use laws! LOL!
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 24, 2005 5:16:27 GMT -6
Part 2:
RE: Desi -- "I think it was just her personality that made her a bold and strong woman. Even in today's society some woman will join the military and others don't. She just happened to be born into a royal status and it would have looked bad for her to be sent off to be in such a dangerous battle."
Hmmm, interesting. Tolkien did come from a class-oriented society, and he does portray class differences among his hobbits, Men and Elves... Either way, riding into battle with the host, or waiting to fight the advancing Orc-Easterling-Dunlending armies, Eowyn would, in Gondor or in Rohan, eventually have to fight. Theoden may have been trying to give Eowyn a further chance for survival, as he felt certain that the host would be destroyed at Gondor. Eowyn might live to fight a guerilla styled battle for years in the great mountains. Beats me?
Fanuidhol: Great Post!
RE: "Indulge me a little since I am not prepared to defend this statement with citations: the Germanic culture in which the Anglo-Saxons came from honored war and the warrior. I know this from reading various things throughout my life. So, let’s believe that the Rohirrim feel the same way. Theoden’s last remarks to Merry on Pelennor Fields may suggest that the warrior is honored. Theoden is now not ashamed to die, because he can hold his head up high among his ancestors."
Absolutely! For many of the pre-Christian volk, the afterlife was rather a grim and empty situation. There are many examples of Germanic warriors claiming that a man's only hope of eternity is to be found in his becoming a matter of legend, a celebrated hero whose name will be kept alive in the songs of the Skalds. Military deeds, heroic ventures could insure that fame.
Your further take on Eowyn's despair, the frustration of her enforced passivity in Edoras is masterful. I especially like: "Unfortunately she also knows, as the disobedient Dernhelm, she can fight and die, but, she will not receive the glory and honor that she craves. She doesn’t do it for Rohan or romantic love. It is because she cannot have personal glory and honor as a warrior, or as a queen. We cannot judge her for this by our modern values. She is a product of her culture."
Very interesting. Eowyn, even with the host, is still not allowed to be herself, she is "Dernhelm," and still will be denied the fruits of any victory she may claim upon the battlefield. If "western civilization" survives, and the Rohirric bards compose new songs of "immortality" for the heroes of the Pelenor Fields, will "Dernhelm" reap the benefits, rather than Eowyn? A depressing thought to carry with you as you ride into what you believe will be a hopeless battle...
___________________
Maybe we will wind up adding "all of the above" factors together in explaining Eowyn's passion, her desperation, her grim heroicism. I certainly never suspected the complexities that might be involved here, sort of "overlooked" Eowyn before now. So, thank you PaleAndFair, for starting this line, and my thanks to all the participants who have, quite apparently, studied this shieldmaiden with better eyes than mine!
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 24, 2005 6:55:42 GMT -6
Fanuidhol wrote:
I think, as Dernhelm, Éowyn did not care if she had glory or reknown on the battlefield. She went to protect Théoden as best she could and saw to it that she was near him on the field of battle.
It took all her courage to face down the Witchking and his Fell Beast so that it could not "feast upon Théoden's flesh". She stood between the Witchking and "came between the Nazgûl and his prey!" Imagine her fear! but she had a purpose--to protect Théoden--and intended to fulfil that purpose.
And as fate should have it, she did have glory on the battlefield and made a name of renown for herself as Éowyn, Shieldmaiden of Rohan for taking out the Witchking and his Fell Beast!
I believe Merry also won some recognition and renown for himself as well...at least in Rohan and Gondor. (Actually, if I remember correctly, his deeds were told over and over again in The Shire, too. So the hobbits did not actually live and feel the desperation of that battle, they still honored Merry for his part in it from his accounting of his battles to them.)
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jan 24, 2005 13:19:41 GMT -6
(Actually, if I remember correctly, his deeds were told over and over again in The Shire, too. So the hobbits did not actually live and feel the desperation of that battle, they still honored Merry for his part in it from his accounting of his battles to them.) Didn't the hobbits hold Merry in renown simply for his valor against "Sharkey" and the invaders? I seem to recall that the significance of the War of the Ring was lost on the Shire-folk and they only cared about what Merry, Pippin, and the others did in the battle with Saruman. If Merry did share his experiences on the Pellenor Fields, his fellow hobbits would probably just regard that as a foolhardy adventure full of strange and foreign names. I might be remembering incorrectly though.
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Post by PaleAndFair on Jan 29, 2005 21:27:12 GMT -6
Dear all, In my studies of woman waders it seems that it was something done on occasion, often to royalty, but it stud more as a ceremonial office; they would be fully trained, but seldom engage in battle. I think that Saroman had some to do with the caging of Eowyn, and as the culture became more civilized, the woman stayed at home to make the battle seem less dire. this must have been going on for a long time ---------- Then the prince went from his horse, and knelt by the bier in honor of the king and his great onset; and he wept. And rising he looked then on Éowyn and was amazed. 'Surely, here is a woman?' he said. 'Have even the women of the Rohirrim come to war in our need?' 'Nay! One only,' they answered. 'The Lady Éowyn is she, sister of Éomer; and we knew naught of her riding until this hour, and greatly we rue it.'-----------------------
Eomer said to his sister 'Eowyn, you are a true Shield Maiden’, So there must have been Woman warriors of renown in history.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 21, 2007 15:50:43 GMT -6
While researching some questions regarding the fall of the Roman Empire I started looking for material relating the origins of the various Gothic tribes. In so doing I found the "Saga of Hervor," imbedded in the Hervarar Saga, and a comment that stated JRRT had been heavily influenced by this source when he outlined his Middle-earth character, Eowyn. I thought I'd like to follow up on this revelation by trying to find out who this Hervor might be, and see just how closely she and Eowyn might be compared. see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga#Tolkien1. Hervarar sagaHere I am using the online version translated by Peter Tunstall at: www.northvegr.org/lore/oldheathen/021.php One of the Nordic sources that JRRT used as foundation material for his own Middle-earth saga is especially important in that it provided a template for his Rohirric "shield maiden" Eowyn. The Hervarar Saga seems first to have been written down in the middle 1200s AD, but it looks backward in time to the formation-era of the Gothic/ Germanic peoples and is primarily set in the 4th and 5th centuries when the Huns began their invasion of the tottering Roman Empire. This saga features "magical blacksmith" dwarfs named Dvalin (Dwalin) and Dulin (Durin) who are forced to forge a magical sword for a mortal king. The sword, "Tyrfing," carries the light of the sun in its blade, is sharper than the sharpest, stronger than the strongest: [It] "will bite iron like cloth and never rust. It will bring victory in battles and single combats for any who bear it.” (HS, #1, Peter Tunstall translation). Unfortunately, it also carries a curse, a curse that is reminiscent of that attached to the blade borne by Turin in Tolkien's tale: "May your sword, Sigrlami, be a man's bane each time it is drawn, and may three vile deeds be done with that sword. It will also be death to your kin.” (HS, #1)
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 21, 2007 16:06:14 GMT -6
A bit more on Shield Maidens -- Part 2
Hervor gets the sword:
Sigrlami himself escapes the curse of the sword, retiring to an unremarkable old age, but he gives the sword Tyrfing to his grandson, Angantyr. Angantyr and his 11 brothers win many battles, and become great Berserkers who believe themselves invincible so long as the magic sword is in their family. But in a grand melée, the 12 grandson-berserkers exhaust their furies overcoming several boatloads of their foes. As the berserker-rage ebbs, they are vulnerable, and two warriors (Hjalmar and Odd) manage to kill all of Sigrlami's grandsons though Hjalmar himself dies from the poisonous bite of Angantyr's dwarfish blade. Apparently the curse of the sword is now well known, as it is buried with Angantyr, not taken by Odd as an heirloom of spoil.
The saga switches scenes then, to introduce us to a girl-child, Svafa's troublesome daughter Hervor, a daughter without (apparently) a father. Hervor, from the first, resembles JRRT's Eowyn -- when certain adjustments are made to accomodate the differences between the rougher Germanic peoples and Tolkien's less realistic and idealized Rohirrim. Hervor is a fair-haired, beautiful girl, but possesses the spirit of a boy/ man. Forseeing trouble to come of this, some of the Goths state that Hervor should be killed at birth, exposed so that the "evil" of her nature shall not perplex the folk. But her mother and her foster father both love her as a son, and she grows up running with the boys, wrestling, riding, fighting, training "more with shot and shield and sword than sewing or embroidery."
Once grown to full stature, she finds out that her real father was the famous berserker Angantyr, and she decides to visit his grave, to claim her heritage. Dressed up in warrior gear, disguised as a male, and moving under the assumed, masculine name of Hervard, she joins a viking crew and stops at the Isle of Samsey where her father's Howe is piled.
"A little later, the captain died and this 'Hervard' took command of the crew, and when they came to the island of Samsey, Hervard told them to stop there so she could go up onto the island, and said there would be a good chance of treasure in the mound. But all the crewmen speak against it and say that such terrible ghouls walk there night and day, that it is worse there in the daytime than most places at night. In the end, they agree to drop anchor, and Hervor climbed in the boat and rowed ashore and landed in Munway just as the sun was setting." (HS, # 5)
Hervor approaches the tombs of her relatives, and sees that they are covered by more than earth, for a ghost-flame burns about the mounds. Bold as any male from the heroic tales, she wades through the foglike stuff and addresses the dead:
"Awake, Angantyr, Hervor wakes you, only daughter of you and Svafa; from your crypt give me that keenest blade, the sword dwarves struck for King Sigrlami."
Angantyr finally replies to her calls:
“Hervor, daughter, what drives you to call so? Brimful of bale-runes, you're bound for grief. You're out of your mind, mad have you gone, lost your wits now, waking up dead men."
Angantyr tries to dissuade her from claiming the ill-fated sword, but Hervor is made of stern stuff, and when the tomb opens, and the rotting dead show themselves, she does not blanch:
“Oh, you can't burn any bonfires by night, no flames flaring to frighten me; your daughter's mind does not tremble though dead men there in the door she see.”
Angantyr gives Hervor a prophetic warning, that if she takes the blade her son will inherit it, will do great deeds and then perish by the very blade that allows him to win renown. Hervor is dauntless, and demands the cursed thing anyway:
“I did think I was mortal, among the living, till down I came to your dead men's hall; hand me from your howe, then, what hates armour, the hazard of shields Hjalmar's bane.”
Angantyr cannot longer refuse her, and with a last warning he gives her the blade:
“You're foolish, Hervor, but full of daring, to rush at flames before your eyes; rather, young girl, I think I'll give you the cleaver from my cairn, I can't refuse.”
Carrying now this heirloom of doom, Hervor returns to her home, but plays still the male role, and calls herself yet Hervard. She goes forth, seeking adventures, fights and slays giants, kills many men in raiding wars, until she tires of this "man's play" and returns to her foster father's stead, drops the name Hervard, and becomes again a woman, "weaving and doing embroidery."
She even consents to marry Hofund son of Godmund, a quiet, kindly, decent chap who settles his neighbors' arguments without favoritism, and becomes a deeply beloved ruler. Hervor bears two sons of this union, one named for her father, Angantyr, the other was called Heidrek. Angantyr was a gentle man, a law giver, a maker of peace. But Heidrek was a sullen fellow, a quarrelsome, egotistical sort who started fights that Angantyr had to quell. One night Heidrek was temporarily banished from the stead for fighting, and in his sulking withdrawal Heidrek picked up a huge stone and tossed it into the dark where he could hear some voices. Of course the stone hit Angantyr, and killed him at once. Heidrek's banishment is made permanent, but before he leaves Hervor gives him the cursed sword Tyrfing:
“You've done it now, my son. The way you've fixed things, you can't expect to be back--so there's not much I can do to help you. Here is a mark of gold and a sword, which I want to give you. It is called Tyrfing and it belonged to Angantyr the berserk, your grandfather. No one is so ignorant they haven't heard tell of him. And if you come to where men trade blows, just remember how Tyrfing has often been victorious.” (HS, #6)
Heidrek then continues in this saga as its central character -- and many fine adventures he has before the sword Tyrfang twists round to encompass his doom -- but those tales I'll leave for you to find yourselves. I am, afterall, concerned here with Hervor, and how she influenced JRRT when he wrote up his tale of Eowyn.
Next: contrast/ comparison, Hervor and Eowyn.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 22, 2007 6:38:54 GMT -6
A Bit more on Shield Maidens -- Part 3After the initial 6 sections of the narration of the Hervarar, Hervor seems to have been finished with her part of the story, and sections 7 through 11 then detail the deeds of a repentant Heidrik who finally becomes a great king in his own right. There is even a very long series of riddles which Heidrek answers in order to demonstrate his wisdom, riddles which present some elements that JRRT reworked as parts of his contest between Bilbo and Gollum in The Hobbit. But "Hervor" then suddenly reappears, but does so in a confusing way in section 13 where she is now called the sister of Angantyr III, her own grandson. This section and the following one, #14, may be later interpolations, or alternate versions of the Hervor saga where the original status of Hervor, the daughter of the first Angantyr, has been forgotten. It may also be that in these two sections we are dealing with a second Hervor, another shield maiden who simply has the same name as her famous grandmother? Either way, this later Hervor is also a great warrior, and she meets her end (in section #14) when she gathers a host and moves out onto the plains to check the advances of the invading Huns: "Now Ormar rode back to the fortress, and found Hervor armed and all the army ready. Now they rode out of the fortress with their army against the Huns, and there began a mighty battle. And as the Huns have a much bigger force, the slaughter turned to the Gothic side, and at last Hervor fell, and many Goths around her. And when Ormar saw her fall, he fled along with all who survived. Ormar rode day and night as fast as he could to King Angantyr in Arheimar. The Huns now take to harrying the land, pillaging and burning far and wide." (HS, #14, Tunstall trans.) Apparently this section 14 death of Hervor stimulated Peter Nicolai Arbo (1831- 92) to create a romantic styled painting that depicted the golden-haired shield maiden lying on the field of her last battle. This picture would have been available for JRRT's viewing and it has been suggested in the Wikipedia article that this representation sparked Tolkien's own description of the fall of Eowyn. see enlargement: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Peter_Nicolai_Arbo-Hervors_d%C3%B8d. pg While there are many strong similarities between Hervor and Eowyn, readers of the trilogy will see just as many differences: 1. both Hervor and Eowyn represent rebellious women who act outside the common bonds of their assigned roles as high status (princess) females. 2. Hervor and Eowyn are good individual fighters, capable of standing against "supernatural" foes (Hervor slays a giant, Eowyn -- with help from Merry -- slays an "undead" witch king). 3. Both Hervor and Eowyn are good commanders of men, and can inspire their followers to battle fiercely under this female direction. Eowyn was to have been trusted with the defense of Rohan, had she not disguised herself as a man, Dernhelm, and ridden off to war in the south. Hervor leads many battle formations, sometimes diguised as a man, Hervard and sometimes she leads as a woman. In fact, as a woman she dies leading her host into a hopeless situation. 4. In their final actions, Hervor and Eowyn both come to terms with their female status, and (if we look only at the first Hervor of sections 1 through 11) both settle into marriage, renouncing the male role of warrior to take up the domestic duties of wife and mother. For major contrasts I have two: A. Tolkien seems, to my reckoning, to have "gentled" and "civilized" his shield maiden. Eowyn does not rejoice in slaying just for the sake of killing, nor does she kill in anger and from mere pride, as does Hervor when she slays her first giant simply because he picked up her sword to look at the blade (she snatches it back from him, and lopps off his head when he is unarmed!). So, I think Tolkien pares away some of the 12th century "barbarian" nature of Hervor when he reworks her as Eowyn, a typically pure Victorian/ Edwardian heroine in many ways. B. If we include the second "Hervor," found in section 14, another major difference is that Hervor dies on the last field of battle, while Eowyn, facing similar hopeless odds, is stricken down, near to death, yet revived to live on into a new age of hope and peace. _____________ I found it intersting that Christopher Tolkien worked heavily on the translation and commentaries for the Saga of Hervor during his own university career back in the 1950s - 60s: Tolkien: Hervarar Saga ok Heidreks Konungs. C.J.R. Tolkien (Oxford University, Trinity College). B. Litt. thesis. 1953/4. [Year uncertain] * The Battle of the Goths and the Huns. Christopher Tolkien, in Saga-Book (University College, London, for the Viking Society for Northern Research) 14, part 3 (1955-6), pp. [141]-63. * Hervarar Saga ok Heidreks. Ed. (E.O.) G. Turville-Petre. London: University College London, for the Viking Society for Northern Research, 1956; introduction by Christopher Tolkien. * The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise. Ed. and trans. Christopher Tolkien. London: Thomas Nelson & Sons (Icelandic Texts), 1960. [30 Jun 60] c.f. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga
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