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Post by Sparrow on Jul 12, 2004 6:12:35 GMT -6
The trolls Bilbo, Thorin and Co. encounter are named William, Bert and Tom. What impact does this use of personification with familiar names have on you? Is this merely ironic, or humorous, or is it simply a device to make the trolls less frightening for young readers?
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jul 12, 2004 18:36:54 GMT -6
I have always thought it funny that these Trolls had common names, unlike the other characters we have come across so far. I think it was a technique to show that in that time and in ME it was common to come across Trolls.
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Post by Greenleaf on Jul 13, 2004 4:02:15 GMT -6
Maybe it is because the Hobbit was originally meant as a children's story that the Trolls have so common and familiar names. If we had encountered the Trolls in Lotr, I think they would have more sinister-sounding names as the Orcs and the Uruk-hai.
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Post by Hilary on Jul 13, 2004 7:42:09 GMT -6
Douglas Anderson, in his Annotated Hobbit relates that the Tolkien children, for whom the story was originally told, had a special fondness for the Trolls. In fact, Tolkien's son, Michael, said that they were really sorry that the Trolls had to die at all!
I think Tolkien did not want to make the Trolls too frightening, so he included their patter, bickering and bantering to make them a somewhat humerous source of danger.
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Post by MajahTR on Jul 20, 2004 6:43:27 GMT -6
Simple names for Simple creatures? M
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 4, 2012 6:37:45 GMT -6
Yes, simple names for simple creatures! I like that!
Simple names so that they wouldn't scare the children doesn't make sense to me when there were so many more frightening experiences coming up later in the book. Why cushion the fright with the Trolls?
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 7, 2012 22:54:41 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "Simple names so that they wouldn't scare the children doesn't make sense to me when there were so many more frightening experiences coming up later in the book. Why cushion the fright with the Trolls?"
If I remember the narrative correctly, isn't the troll episode the first significant, frightening adventure in the book? Maybe Tolkien was unsure in the beginning about how scary he should make the story? I think JRRT mentions in The Letters that he read the book as installments, as each chapter was finished. Maybe he gauged the scare factor by his kids' responses. Apparently the trolls were favorites with the kids, and JRRT, seeing that his audience could handle the trolls without undue fright, decided he could safely up the scare factor in the subsequent chapters?
RE Greenleaf's: "If we had encountered the Trolls in Lotr, I think they would have more sinister-sounding names as the Orcs and the Uruk-hai."
Certainly, as Greenleaf suggested, giving the trolls commonplace English names, and cockney accents would have gone far to make them more familiar, less frightening. Yeah, giving them horrible names in the Black Speech of Mordor would have increased the scare considerably. Just think how much more menacing the dragon is with a sibilant-guttural name like Smaug. Suppose JRRT had called his dragon Fred instead, and had given him a yokel, cockney, proletariat voice...
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 8, 2012 7:14:15 GMT -6
Well, that makes sense, reading each chapter after it was written to gauge his childrens' reaction to the fright factor. Just think how much more menacing the dragon is with a sibilant-guttural name like Smaug. Suppose JRRT had called his dragon Fred instead, and had given him a yokel, cockney, proletariat voice... That's a very funny thought! Perhaps William, Bert, and Tom had not been brought up in the normal Troll environment and had never been exposed to the evil of Angmar or Dol Guldor and never spoke orcish. Well, wait . . . I did a search and came across this discussion of killer Trolls. William, Bert, and Tom may have been more evil than we think! tolkiensring.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Creatures&action=display&thread=263
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profgandalf
Orc
In the library at Minas Tirith!
Posts: 8
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Post by profgandalf on Jul 9, 2012 10:50:01 GMT -6
I agree with the point that these Trolls were made funny to help ease the fright of young children. the oldest of Tolkien's children when The Hobbit appeared was ten, Priscilla was two. Furthermore Tolkien was narrating portions of the novel to them even earlier (according to Carpenter).
One other point, Tolkien is showing his excellent ear for the sounds of language by giving them the accent he does (a point he made himself about Chaucer who gave specif accents to the Reeve) although some have accused him of class snobbery.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 11, 2012 7:34:23 GMT -6
One other point, Tolkien is showing his excellent ear for the sounds of language by giving them the accent he does (a point he made himself about Chaucer who gave specif accents to the Reeve) although some have accused him of class snobbery. Evil creatures could have any type of upbringing. They would not have had to have been of a "lower class", they could have been of an "upper class", too. There are many high class and quite notorious criminals and they would be less suspect than the lower class criminals just because they were more well groomed. But you shouldn't disallow there are criminals of any class. But with William's, Berts, and Tom's cockney accents and speech, they are more comic than scary and that would have cushioned the fright factor for the children. But it would have been less effective for the story if the Trolls were high class: "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and how irksome, if it does not appear we will have mutton again tomorrow," said one of the trolls. "Never a blinking bit of manflesh have we had for a long time," said a second. "What the blazes Baron Rhodes was thinking to bring us into these dismal parts at all, bugger me -- and the intoxicating beverages running short, as well," he said bumping the elbow of Baron Rhodes, who was delicately sipping from his stein. Baron Rhodes choked. "Silence!" he said as soon as he could. "You cannot expect anyone to stop here just to be made a delectable dish for you and Duke Pruitt. You have dined on a village and a half between the two of you since we came down from the mountains. How much more do you want? And it would not have been long ago when you would have said 'Thank you Baron Rhodes for the delightful fat valley lamb you have provided for us.' He took a big bite off a sheep's leg he was roasting, and delicately dabbed a napkin to his lips. Although being roasted and eaten by Trolls is very frightening no matter what class the Trolls would have been!
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profgandalf
Orc
In the library at Minas Tirith!
Posts: 8
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Post by profgandalf on Jul 11, 2012 8:17:51 GMT -6
I absolutely agree that evil does not need to use low class speech. Still we are caught by surprise when a villain is well spoken. Saruman was, of course, noted even after his fall and his staff was broken for the pleasing power of his speech. Interestingly though Tolkien did see Orc and Troll speech as being overtly crude. I found this in the appendix: Both Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things, and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any would wish for a closer rendering though models are easy to find. Much of that same talk can still be heard among the Orc minded. (Return of the King 412) Interesting that the narrator, even in this adult narrative, admits to censoring the language of Trolls and Orcs.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 11, 2012 16:48:03 GMT -6
Yes, there are some very slick, smooth talking con artists about that have tricked many a poor, gullible target. And coming off as just an ordinary guy/gal or a well-to-do guy/gal is part of their ability to trick the target into believing they are on the up and up.
Yes! Saruman! He had a special gift of a spellbinding and mesmerizing voice, didn't he! Didn't Gandalf warn the Rohirrim about that voice when they went back to talk to him after Helm's Deep?
I suppose you could say Grima Wormtongue also had a smooth tongue--smooth enough to spell-bind Theoden. Or was it actually Saruman's voice coming through Grima by some trick?
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 13, 2012 2:46:34 GMT -6
RE progandalf's: "... although some have accused him of class snobbery."
Don't think we've ever talked much about Tolkien and "class-ism" here, his racisim, and potential misogyny, we've touched on, but not class. This seems to be more of a British issue where it still strikes some as a daily running sore of that society. Not so much a current U.S. issue? I'll have to read up on this!
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