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Post by Stormrider on Jul 12, 2007 5:48:58 GMT -6
I've placed this thread here since the material in The Children of Hurin will compliment and add more to Unfinished Tales. Several of our members have purchased this new book and the rest of us who haven't yet, would love to hear about it.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 16, 2007 18:54:25 GMT -6
Thanks for starting this topic Stormrider!
I do not have a copy of this book, not sure how much repetition it presents, so Vanye and Sparrow, if you have any information on this latest read, I'd sure love to hear it. If you all think it is worth the money/ time, I'll skip the next couple of burger-meals-out and buy the book instead.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Mar 6, 2009 15:14:58 GMT -6
I am reading this book currently. It may have been a mistake to dive into this so soon after finishing Unfinished Tales since there is quite a bit of repetition. It is almost exactly the same text. The only difference so far has been a bit more detail about the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, which was quickly glossed over in UT.
However, I am enjoying it nonetheless. This was one of the better and more developed of the UT and it's fun to read it in its finished form.
There is a segment that is completely skipped in UT about Turin's time in Nargothrond, his romance with the Elf maid Finduilas, and the tragic fate of his friend Beleg Strongbow. I look forward to finally reading that part.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Apr 2, 2009 16:44:52 GMT -6
Just read the "new" section I mentioned above. It was fairly short actually, which was disappointing. I wonder if Christopher had to adapt it from the version in The Silmarillion or from Tolkien's notes or something. I'm going to assume you guys are familiar with the overall plot from The Sil. So if you're planning to read this book and want to avoid spoilers, read no further.
Anyhow, the scene in Taur-nu-Fuin, the haunted forest, was pretty cool. Very cinematic. Beleg's fate is quite tragic. He was Turin's most loyal friend but it's Turin who ultimately kills him. Yikes.
Finduilas' role was similarly tragic. I had thought there was a romance here but apparently, it was one-sided on her part. Turin saw her more like a sister. The scene after the sack of Nargothrond when she's pulled away screaming by the orcs and Turin can only watch was heart-wrenching. And what eventually happens to her and the other captives is very sad.
This story really is a Greek tragedy in scale. I've lost count of the awful things that happen to Turin and anyone close to him. It's a downer of a story but very rich and well-told.
One thing that intrigues me is that in every Elf/Human romance in Tolkien (even unrequited ones like this), it's always a human man and an elf woman. I wonder why that is. Did Tolkien think human women just can't hold a candle to the ethereal beauty of elf-maids? Or male elves can't match the warrior prowess of human men? Or maybe his love for Edith influenced him so he always made the woman the magical being?
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 3, 2009 4:41:38 GMT -6
RE Fredegar's: "There is a segment that is completely skipped in UT about Turin's time in Nargothrond, his romance with the Elf maid Finduilas, and the tragic fate of his friend Beleg Strongbow. I look forward to finally reading that part."
JRR Tolkien really put a lot of effort into the "Lay of of the Children of Hurin." In addition to the material abstracted by Christopher Tolkien for The Silmarillion, JRRT also prepared both a prose and a poetic version. The poetic version is found in HOME vol. 3, The Lays of Beleriand, and the prose version is in The Book of Lost Tales, part 2, especially in the section "Turambar and the Foaloke."
I did not buy The Children of Hurin for fear that it would simply be the stitching together of material from these sources, with nothing new to offer. Of course, it might be just as well to have the various versions/ threads pulled together, especially for those who do not want to buy all the HOME volumes... I think I'll just borrow the library copy and then compare the C of H with the HOME volumes.
RE Fredegar's: "This story really is a Greek tragedy in scale. I've lost count of the awful things that happen to Turin and anyone close to him. It's a downer of a story but very rich and well-told."
LOL, a real "downer!" JRRT was closely following the outline of Kullervo's tale in the Finnish Kalevala of Lonnrot, and the major theme there is the impact of the godly curse upon Kullervo. Tolkien took up this theme with the curse of Morgoth on Hurin, something I found to be contradictory to the rest of the Middle-earth mythology in that it gives great power to just the malevolent thought of Morgoth. No where else in all the HOME volumes does Morgoth's mere hate, mere thought have such power over Men and Elves. I think this foreign feeling is precisely because JRRT was following the pagan Kullervo tale so closely; later, as he developed his own themes, such a thing as a god's curse being extended from one person to others associated with the cursed-one (like the curse which Morgoth puts on Hurin, and then extends to include his children/ friends) would not be possible in Tolkien's ever more Christianized Middle-earth.
LOL, yeah, JRRT does indeed have female Elves falling in love with male Men, never happens the other way round... Guess elf-males, like the gorgeous Legolas, were just too pretty themselves to be interested in "squatty-ugly" women? Or is JRRT making a comment upon the supposed "unbalanced," passionate condition of the Victorian-female mind -- liable to form "inappropriate" liaisons at the drop of a hat? The one admixture of godly and "lower life" forms preserves this trend: Melian the Maia marries the "merely Elven" Thingol, a step down for her...
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 3, 2009 6:28:26 GMT -6
Fredegar:
With agelessness as one of your characteristics, I think the Elvish men were more opposed to seeing their women fade and age and kept clear of falling in love with a mere human female. Beauty seems to draw the male Elf and seeing this happen to one he loved would break his heart. (Not that it wouldn't a female Elf if vice versa--take Arwen for instance.)
While a female Elf may like some of the rugged brute characteristics of the human male over some of the finer eloquent motions of the male Elf. You know the saying that women like bad boys? It's kind of like that. (Not that there weren't some truly "bad" elves in Arda which we have read about) Anyway, the female Elf would eventually lose her man and grieve, too. But in many cases females seem to adapt easier than males and even if it took a while to get over, I think the female Elf would learn to be richer because of the love experience. And maybe even try it again in another eon if the right human male oozing testosterone came along.
Boy! This sounds like I am painting the Elvish male as a flowery pansy and the Elvish female as a floozy and I don't mean to do that! I am sure the males would also get over the love experience, but it might take longer than with a female elf. I don't think a male elf would be willing to love a human again.
Of course, this is all just speculation on my part.
Andorinha:
I could never figure out what attracted Melian to Elwë/Thingol in the first place. She seemed to weave her web around him and completely enamore him of her. But why? She lived in Lórien which was one of the most beautiful places in Arda and she was one of the fairest and most lovely of the Maiar. In reading the chapter in the The Silmarillion about this meeting, Tolkien doesn't really say much as explanation other than Elwë heard her and touched her and they stood that way for ages and then went on to be King and Queen of the Sindar.
I guess there had to be some way that Tolkien brought the line of the gods with the line of the favorite children to help with the eventual line of Elrond/Elros later on. I wonder if there is more in the other HOME books. Looks like homework is necessary.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 5, 2009 6:45:30 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's : "Boy! This sounds like I am painting the Elvish male as a flowery pansy and the Elvish female as a floozy and I don't mean to do that!"
LOL! Nonetheless, there seems, in JRRT's treatment, to be something to this "bad boy" attraction syndrome. Turin, accused of "bad table manners" and unruly, wild behaviours, still attracts the Elvish gurls, untamed, savage, and dangerous to those about him -- seems to appeal to some of the females... Turin as James Dean?
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Apr 24, 2009 0:40:21 GMT -6
I've now finished The Children of Hurin. It was definitely not the brightest idea to read this right after Unfinished Tales since it was major deja vu at times. But otherwise, I thought it was really cool reading a story of the Elder Days as its own standalone novel.
There was another new segment at the end with Turin's parents, Hurin and Morwen, at their children's grave. A very sad and poignant coda to this tragic tale. I was glad that we got resolution on what happened to Morwen since it had bugged me the way she just disappeared during Glaurung's attack. I had half thought that the dragon had eaten her!
Christopher Tolkien's afterword was rather eye-opening for me. He discussed the evolution of the story and the different approaches his father took with it. This was originally to be an epic poem and Tolkien had several thousand lines written before he abandoned it.
In fact, he seemed to abandon quite a few drafts of stories mentioned in this afterword. JRRT must have been an extreme perfectionist. While I sometimes find Christopher's commentaries a bit dry and rambling, I have newfound respect for the huge task he had sorting through his father's various stories, drafts, revisions, notes, etc.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 27, 2009 5:54:00 GMT -6
I can't imagine all the paperwork the Professory generated thrughout his life. It seems that all he did was write! And then to keep all the paperwork--discarded and rewritten notes, too! How in the world did he organize all of that--shoeboxes? Where did he store it all?
Yes, I agree, Christopher had a big job going thru everything and organizing it all into the books based on his father's notes he published to enhance our knowledge of Arda and Middle Earth.
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