Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 16:20:14 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Cat
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Message 1 of 12 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/16/2002 12:18 PM
This cute little poem is a technical masterpiece. The even numbered lines rhyme with each other and internally and the odd numbered lines have internal triple rhymes. All of this done in rather short lines so tht every single word other than prepositions and conjunctions are part of the rhyme scheme.(very difficult) After that being said what do you thimk Tolkien's message is concerning this poem?
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Message 2 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 8/16/2002 2:01 PM
Perhaps the difficult but deftly handled rhyme scheme is meant to reflect the playfulness and dexterity of cats, sort of. I'm thinking of their swift and precise movements, and how they always land on their feet. Or perhaps there is a more to it? We seem to have several cat 'owners' in the group who I'm guessing will like this poem. ~ fallohide
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Message 3 of 12 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/16/2002 3:11 PM
Anyone who has ever lived with a feline learns very quickly how Kitty sees himself. My "fat (orange) cat on the mat kept as a pet, he does not forget" his roots. While his person may think he's frolicking with all those carefully chosen balls with bells, feathers, and catnip stuffed mice, my lap top King, in his own eyes, is chasing prey. On one of his secret adventures in the great outdoors, he is very likely to return with a "gift". He will proudly plop it down at my feet and wait for me to chow down.
You guessed right. Fallohide. This cat lover thoroughly adored this verse. (My orange lumpkin was born in Denver) And Rivers, Thank you for the technical update. It makes the reading even more enjoyable. Tolkien's message? Never underestimate the cuteness of a cat.
Annie who!
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Message 4 of 12 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/16/2002 8:28 PM
Wow, thanks Rivers, for filling us in on the technical part of the rhyme scheme. I love it when you do that! Increases appreciation.
This poem kinda reminds me of Jack London's "Call of the Wild", wherein he describes a domesticated half dog/wolf, and his dreams of his wild past. But fat cat on the mat, kept as a pet, he does not forget.
As domesticated as our dogs and cats have become, I am sure there is a bit of their pysche that is aware of thier wild beginings. In this poem Tolkien seems to be saying, as we look at our fat happy cat sleeping on the mat, we may think he may be dreaming of bowls of cream, or little mice to chase, but how do we know he is not remembering his beginings as a wild fearless feline, king of the jungle, and man-eater?
The poem also highlights Tolkien's diversity as not only a story teller of great renown, but an accomplished poet both in technical style, and clever invention.
Glor
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Message 5 of 12 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/17/2002 11:27 PM
I can see how difficult this must have been to rhyme with this scheme and still keep the message in tact! Very difficult.
The tame cat is content and secure in his easy life being taken care of by his people, yet he dreams of the wild life thru some ancestral memories that he has and yearns for the ability to go out and hunt on his own for his food.
Stormrider
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Message 6 of 12 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/18/2002 5:46 PM
The thing that came to mind for me was Bilbo, he was a fat cat set up in his lifestyle of eating and smoking very settled and set in a nice hobbit hole. When the Dwarves mentioned the adventure his adventurous side came out an his Took heritage of fighting goblins surfaced to his advantage in the" Hobbit."
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Message 7 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/19/2002 12:13 AM
What a beautiful vision Rivers, very much like Bilbo is this poem. As he sat listening to the Dwarvish music he saw visions of mountains, and had a longing to see them for real. A new perspective I will always hold when reading the Hobbit my friend.
"Cat" is one of several poems in this series that has roots in Old English learning. It is akin to the Beastiary ryhmes taught to children to remember the lesson of the animals. We will be seeing two perhaps three more of these within our study. I remember the old School House Rock which was a reincarnation of this practice, and because of it I remembered the Preamble and aced a test. I hope we see more teaching like this, it works.
Now it is attested that Sam is responsible for adding this poem, although it is suspect that he only laid down something from his childhood and added to it. Do you think Hobbits were cat fanciers?
Not ever owning a cat, who really does, but having met quite a few I am going to say this poem deescribes that feline quite well. Which brings to mind another thought. Was Tolkien a cat person?
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 8 of 12 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/19/2002 12:26 AM
Interesting idea Rivers, indeed. Bilbo as the fat cat dreaming of his adventerous Tookish side. Extrapolate that to where our dreams as humans come from. Jungian archtypes, anyone? This is deep! Before I go on and on with psychology babble, was it really meant this deep? I duuno, thoughts?
Glor
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Message 9 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/19/2002 4:21 AM
Glor,
I find in my little corner of psychosis that we all seperate our realities from the assumed facts, Cleo ain't the only Queen of de-nile. So with this in mind I am quite willing to assume Tolkien's depth and agree with Rivers. Based on the the loose data that I can find no mention of this poem previous to the publication of the Hobbit, or previous to LotR, I suspect that in 1962 with the pressure of pulishing this group of tales Tolkien had to write some new material to bulk it up, or at least refer to material written after said books. I can not be sure, however the image of Tolkien writing these poems, as if Hobbits of the shire wrote them, is all the more reason to suspect an amalgamation between the subject, cat, and the old Hobbit.
This is an area, where theory may be just as valid as fact. It is for us all a loss that we cannot question the author and verify his intent, but my heart tends to move towards Tolkien adding these elements into all of his work. It seems he was centered about Middle Earth within all his writings, yet within in all his "heroic" characters there are the simplest intents. Good over Evil, Love over Hate, Loyalty over Treason. Simple values expressed over and over again in such a deverse theme. Even trying to rebuttal myself I still feel Rivers has touched on a really cool bit of insight here. So psychoanalysis aside, I think perhaps Tolkien did think of Bilbo and his Tookish side when he penned this poem.
Namárië
Iarwain
__________________________________________
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Message 10 of 12 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/19/2002 7:31 AM
Wow! Lots here to ponder. I read the poem and thought yes, Tolkien has accurately summed up the cat's attitude and heritage. Having had both dogs and cats for most of my life, I do think dogs are more domesticated than cats. Probably stemming from dog's pack allegiance being easy to transfer to us. Cats, on the other hand, are notoriously independent. And if you have ever watched a cat outside, stalking and catching a mouse, you can see the tiger or lion in miniature.
I had not really SEEN the complexity of the rhyming, and re-reading the poem with that information, admire it all the more.
Zauber
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Message 11 of 12 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 8/21/2002 10:28 PM
"Was Tolkien a cat person?" Iarwain mused.
That I do not know, but I read in the letters that Tolkien kept chickens, and often seemed annoyed by the attendant responsibilities.
Sorry, Glor, Zauber, Iarwain - no deep thoughts here. They slid into the abyss of my sleep deficit.
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Message 12 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/29/2002 10:02 PM
"but fat cat on the mat / kept as a pet, / he does not forget"
I see a warning in the poem "Cat". Tolkien goes on to describe what we humans imagine cats dream about. We humans make assumptions ...
I think that this poem can be applied to other things:
For instance ... take out 'CAT' and replace it with 'SMALL (NEAR-NUCLEAR) OPPRESSED COUNTRY'. We assume that an seemingly-archaic enemy state may not be much to worry about until they awaken some inner-strength possessed within their past ... then, watch out ... "he does not forget (our assumptions or oppression).
Algamesh
_______________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 12 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/16/2002 12:18 PM
This cute little poem is a technical masterpiece. The even numbered lines rhyme with each other and internally and the odd numbered lines have internal triple rhymes. All of this done in rather short lines so tht every single word other than prepositions and conjunctions are part of the rhyme scheme.(very difficult) After that being said what do you thimk Tolkien's message is concerning this poem?
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 8/16/2002 2:01 PM
Perhaps the difficult but deftly handled rhyme scheme is meant to reflect the playfulness and dexterity of cats, sort of. I'm thinking of their swift and precise movements, and how they always land on their feet. Or perhaps there is a more to it? We seem to have several cat 'owners' in the group who I'm guessing will like this poem. ~ fallohide
________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 12 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/16/2002 3:11 PM
Anyone who has ever lived with a feline learns very quickly how Kitty sees himself. My "fat (orange) cat on the mat kept as a pet, he does not forget" his roots. While his person may think he's frolicking with all those carefully chosen balls with bells, feathers, and catnip stuffed mice, my lap top King, in his own eyes, is chasing prey. On one of his secret adventures in the great outdoors, he is very likely to return with a "gift". He will proudly plop it down at my feet and wait for me to chow down.
You guessed right. Fallohide. This cat lover thoroughly adored this verse. (My orange lumpkin was born in Denver) And Rivers, Thank you for the technical update. It makes the reading even more enjoyable. Tolkien's message? Never underestimate the cuteness of a cat.
Annie who!
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 12 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/16/2002 8:28 PM
Wow, thanks Rivers, for filling us in on the technical part of the rhyme scheme. I love it when you do that! Increases appreciation.
This poem kinda reminds me of Jack London's "Call of the Wild", wherein he describes a domesticated half dog/wolf, and his dreams of his wild past. But fat cat on the mat, kept as a pet, he does not forget.
As domesticated as our dogs and cats have become, I am sure there is a bit of their pysche that is aware of thier wild beginings. In this poem Tolkien seems to be saying, as we look at our fat happy cat sleeping on the mat, we may think he may be dreaming of bowls of cream, or little mice to chase, but how do we know he is not remembering his beginings as a wild fearless feline, king of the jungle, and man-eater?
The poem also highlights Tolkien's diversity as not only a story teller of great renown, but an accomplished poet both in technical style, and clever invention.
Glor
___________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 12 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/17/2002 11:27 PM
I can see how difficult this must have been to rhyme with this scheme and still keep the message in tact! Very difficult.
The tame cat is content and secure in his easy life being taken care of by his people, yet he dreams of the wild life thru some ancestral memories that he has and yearns for the ability to go out and hunt on his own for his food.
Stormrider
______________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 12 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/18/2002 5:46 PM
The thing that came to mind for me was Bilbo, he was a fat cat set up in his lifestyle of eating and smoking very settled and set in a nice hobbit hole. When the Dwarves mentioned the adventure his adventurous side came out an his Took heritage of fighting goblins surfaced to his advantage in the" Hobbit."
________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/19/2002 12:13 AM
What a beautiful vision Rivers, very much like Bilbo is this poem. As he sat listening to the Dwarvish music he saw visions of mountains, and had a longing to see them for real. A new perspective I will always hold when reading the Hobbit my friend.
"Cat" is one of several poems in this series that has roots in Old English learning. It is akin to the Beastiary ryhmes taught to children to remember the lesson of the animals. We will be seeing two perhaps three more of these within our study. I remember the old School House Rock which was a reincarnation of this practice, and because of it I remembered the Preamble and aced a test. I hope we see more teaching like this, it works.
Now it is attested that Sam is responsible for adding this poem, although it is suspect that he only laid down something from his childhood and added to it. Do you think Hobbits were cat fanciers?
Not ever owning a cat, who really does, but having met quite a few I am going to say this poem deescribes that feline quite well. Which brings to mind another thought. Was Tolkien a cat person?
Namárië,
Iarwain
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 12 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/19/2002 12:26 AM
Interesting idea Rivers, indeed. Bilbo as the fat cat dreaming of his adventerous Tookish side. Extrapolate that to where our dreams as humans come from. Jungian archtypes, anyone? This is deep! Before I go on and on with psychology babble, was it really meant this deep? I duuno, thoughts?
Glor
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/19/2002 4:21 AM
Glor,
I find in my little corner of psychosis that we all seperate our realities from the assumed facts, Cleo ain't the only Queen of de-nile. So with this in mind I am quite willing to assume Tolkien's depth and agree with Rivers. Based on the the loose data that I can find no mention of this poem previous to the publication of the Hobbit, or previous to LotR, I suspect that in 1962 with the pressure of pulishing this group of tales Tolkien had to write some new material to bulk it up, or at least refer to material written after said books. I can not be sure, however the image of Tolkien writing these poems, as if Hobbits of the shire wrote them, is all the more reason to suspect an amalgamation between the subject, cat, and the old Hobbit.
This is an area, where theory may be just as valid as fact. It is for us all a loss that we cannot question the author and verify his intent, but my heart tends to move towards Tolkien adding these elements into all of his work. It seems he was centered about Middle Earth within all his writings, yet within in all his "heroic" characters there are the simplest intents. Good over Evil, Love over Hate, Loyalty over Treason. Simple values expressed over and over again in such a deverse theme. Even trying to rebuttal myself I still feel Rivers has touched on a really cool bit of insight here. So psychoanalysis aside, I think perhaps Tolkien did think of Bilbo and his Tookish side when he penned this poem.
Namárië
Iarwain
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 12 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/19/2002 7:31 AM
Wow! Lots here to ponder. I read the poem and thought yes, Tolkien has accurately summed up the cat's attitude and heritage. Having had both dogs and cats for most of my life, I do think dogs are more domesticated than cats. Probably stemming from dog's pack allegiance being easy to transfer to us. Cats, on the other hand, are notoriously independent. And if you have ever watched a cat outside, stalking and catching a mouse, you can see the tiger or lion in miniature.
I had not really SEEN the complexity of the rhyming, and re-reading the poem with that information, admire it all the more.
Zauber
______________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 12 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 8/21/2002 10:28 PM
"Was Tolkien a cat person?" Iarwain mused.
That I do not know, but I read in the letters that Tolkien kept chickens, and often seemed annoyed by the attendant responsibilities.
Sorry, Glor, Zauber, Iarwain - no deep thoughts here. They slid into the abyss of my sleep deficit.
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/29/2002 10:02 PM
"but fat cat on the mat / kept as a pet, / he does not forget"
I see a warning in the poem "Cat". Tolkien goes on to describe what we humans imagine cats dream about. We humans make assumptions ...
I think that this poem can be applied to other things:
For instance ... take out 'CAT' and replace it with 'SMALL (NEAR-NUCLEAR) OPPRESSED COUNTRY'. We assume that an seemingly-archaic enemy state may not be much to worry about until they awaken some inner-strength possessed within their past ... then, watch out ... "he does not forget (our assumptions or oppression).
Algamesh