Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 16:33:42 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Stone Troll
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:35 PM
As I know we all have new DVDs/VHS movie to watch tonight LOL! I will breifly touch upon Stone Troll. This is our first of two encounters with Trolls in these studies and it will be interesting to contrast and compare their personalities when the time comes.
This piece could have been set down by none other than Sam Gamgee as we know from the "Preface"so we won't dwell on that. The timeline too is obviously before the War of the Ring, and if any question might be considered it would be how long had the poem been in the Shires repertoire?
Another interesting thought might be is the "Tom" character in this tale an older image of Tolkien's Bombadil?
And lastly this is by far the most childlike verse on our list, in Tolkien's timeline where do you think, or can you find when Tolkien first penned this?
This will end our first section and I am impressed by the depth that has been shown so far. I am still considering some of what we discussed. If you have any comments about previous mentioned studies please add them as our boards are open 24/7 and we(Rivers and I) will be checking back on them as we move on. Enjoy the break, and on 8/11/02 we will be opening Bilbo Baggins "Errantry" boards. Break out the "Oxfords" as it has several archaic and Old English words to look at.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/6/2002 5:14 PM
Several things. First I do not think of any of the TB poems to be childlike. I wonder if most grammar school kids in the USA would even understand alot of it. I do not think the 'Tom' of this poem is TB. Since his uncle was Tim, I think it possibly more of an alliterative sense. I find the rhyme and meter wonderfully in tune with its content, and very indicative of the type of poetry Sam could be known for (oliphaunt). I think the time line rests at the same period as Oliphaunt, and Bilbo's 3 trolls story, if not a bit earlier, since when Bilbo met the trolls, he obviously was aware of at least SOME of thier nature.
Glor
________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 21 in Discussion From: Selmo
Sent: 8/7/2002 2:58 AM
I first came across these poems more than thirty years ago and have always felt that some of them should be sung, not read. The Stone Troll is one of these.
I have since heard that Christopher Tolkien, in one of the HoME series of books, says that The Stone Troll should be sung and that his father wrote it to fit the tune of a traditional folk song, "The Fox".
Perhaps you know the song:
The Fox went out on a chilly night
And prayed for the moon to give him light
He had many miles to go that night
Before he reached the toen-o
Town-o, town-o
Hed had many miles to go that night
Before he reached the town-o.
The words to Stone Troll don't sound so silly when they are sung.
Selmo.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:07 AM
Selmo beat me to it! I was delighted to read recently that TB Goes Boating is to the tune of "Fox Went Out on the Town", and it does make a rollicking good song. Apparently Tolkien's aunt Jane Neave (Naeve?) asked for 'more about Tom Bombadil in a small book that people could afford to buy', and he wrote this poem to accompany the other 'Adventure of" and put together the Tom Bombadil collection for her. It was published a year or two before she died. (Sorry to be vague on dates but I don't have my books handy.)
In particular, I like the otter conversation. I think Tom and the otters had a very playful joking relationship. And we have no idea what Goldberry did when Tom and Farmer Maggot went out drinking. Perhaps a 'ladies night' with her Mom?
I read the two Tom poems to a freind, who was not familiar with many of the terms used. So I explained some, but got stuck myself on others. Since I had to get out the trusty dictionary anyway, I made a little 'glossary' that might be useful to others.
Withywindle = withe is a supple willow twig; windle is meandering, twisted
dingle = small wooded valley, a dell
dabchicks = grebes, diving birds
brock = badger (I thought it was a male badger but it's any badger)
wight = human being or creature
flag-lilies = water iris
sallow brakes = sallow are any of several Europen willows; brake is an overgrown area or thicket
otter fell = hide of the animal, pelt
taw = to convert animal skin to white leather by mineral tanning
swan cob = male swan
weir = fence placed in a river to catch fish
cockle boat = small and shallow boat
wherry = row boat
cheaping = market
Now a few terms I am not clear on: shaved oars? what, they grow beards?
'in upping'? as "If one day the King returns, in upping he may take you,"
(and this line answers when the poem was written, obviously before the Return of the King!)
and cockshut as in "Even in cockshut light an old friend should know me"
In upping, my guess is, refers to water birds tipping up to dabble in the mud at the bottom of the stream. Good guess or not?
And cockshut I assume to be at night, before dawn and the cock's crow. What do you think?
Zaube
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:14 AM
Ooops, I guess my above message shouldn't have been under the Stone Troll thread.
I agree that the Tom in Stone Troll is not Tom B., as Tom didn't have an uncle, at least not if he was first.
Zauber
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 21 in Discussion From: Selmo
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:35 AM
Swan-upping was a process of catching and marking swans with their owners brand, usually by clipping notches in the bill.
A traditional, ceremonial swan-upping is carried out each year on the River Thames in England each year and the swans marked as belonging to the Queen. All swans on the Thames are reguarded as the property of the Crown.
Selmo.
________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:54 AM
Oh thank you Selmo! That's really interesting, and makes for a clearer picture of Tom's threat to the cob! I love words and strange expressions, so now I have a new one! Thanks so much, Zauber
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 21 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:16 PM
Selmo, thanks so much for the tip about the song (Zauber, you get credit, too!). I agree with you that many of Tolkien's poems would be better sung; so many of them practically make their own music.
I hadn't heard "The Fox" so set out to find a midi file of the melody, which I have attached to this message. Is this the tune you're familiar with?
Thanks, too, for the info on "swan-upping" -- doesn't sound like too much fun for the swans, although I'm glad the Thames swans get the protection of the crown. Now, if you can just tell us about "oar-shaving" we'll be all set. Are they scraping off barnacles? Trying to make the oars smoother?
Olórië
TheFox.mid
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/8/2002 7:07 AM
On the subject of songs and music, there is both a book and a record "The Road Goes Ever On: A Song Cycle", music by Donald Swan (Of Flanders and Swan, "At The Drop of a Hat") and poems by J.R.R. Tolkien. Book was published by Allen & Unwin, 1968. Primarily the songs are from LOTR, but do include On Errantry.
I don't have the record handy (I'm at work, shh!) but the songs are sung by William Elvin, and he and Donald Swan performed them for Tolkien and Edith's 50th Wedding Anniversary. I wish more of the Tolkien songs had been put to music! Escpecially the Tom Bombadil songs would be so much fun to sing.
Zaube
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 21 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/8/2002 1:40 PM
I confess -- I was happy to see Swann's music created and produced, but I always wished I liked it more than I did. I haven't heard it in many years so will give it a relisten and maybe it will sound better this time. But I did think, while watching the FotR movie, that I liked their treatment of "The Road Goes Ever On" much better than Swann's; it sounded much more 'authentic' to me. We just hear a little of the new tune in the movie -- it's the song Gandalf is singing to himself as he drives into Hobbiton.
The book, though, is fantastic!
Olórië
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 21 in Discussion
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:21 PM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:24 PM
I liked "The Road goes ever on" from the song cycle best also. I used to play it on the piano when I was a kid. I also liked "I sit beside the fire". I never heard the record, I would just sing them to myself as I played. We should put all these midi and wavs on a page here.
Glor
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 9:03 AM
I have seen a couple of responses that suggest that the "Tom" of The Stone Troll is not Tom Bombadil. I must disagree for a couple of different reasons:
1. The poem is written under a compilation of tales concerning Tom Bombadil.
2. The illustrations in the Poem depict Bombadil.
Having said this, I agree that the part about "nuncle Tim" is curious as well as the reference to "my father's kin". I believe I have a reasonable explanation for it though. Samwise was the author of this piece and he has stated previously that he dabbles in a bit o' comic ryhme. Sam IS authoring a verse about Bombadil but that doesn't mean that he has to stay completely true to Tom's being. It's quite possible that Sam cannot digest the fact that Tom is a unique entity and therefore he creates relatives for Tom in his literature. I don't believe that Sam intended anyone to take his poem literally or in a historically accurate sense. It was only a bit o' fun in tribute to Bombadil.
Algamesh
Reply
Message 14 of 21 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/11/2002 6:42 PM
Olorie, Thank you so much for the midi link of the Fox. I reread, or I should say I sang (Karaoke style), Stone Troll. What a difference singing brings to the meaning and enjoyment of this poem. What fun! You and your friends out in Brandywine didn't happen to sing this, did you? What a perfect setting for such a song. Reminds me of my old campfire days. Wouldn't that have been a treat if we had known Stone Troll way back then.
Annie
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 21 in Discussion From: Karo6
Sent: 8/23/2002 7:09 PM
A bit more information to cloud an already confusing topic: Was the Tom Bombadil of the LOTR the same Bombadil of the early poems?
Was Tom Bombadil a unique creature, sui generis, or could the peculiar fellow have had relatives after all? Did he have an uncle, Tim, or John, and was Farmer Maggot one of his cousins!?
At the time the original Bombadil poem "The Troll Song" was published ("Songs for the Philologists," first titled "The Root of the Boot," -- University College, London, 1936) Tom Bombadil was conceived as having a more normal family structure and his unfortunate, Troll devoured (but not Troll killed) kinsman was "nuncle John" rather than "nuncle Tim." Bombadil continued to have this normative "clan" based existence all the way through the first drafts of the FOTR (written by 1947). In fact, somewhere in the 1940s, Tolkien was trying out the concept that Farmer Maggot should be a kinsman of Tom's, or at least a creature of the same "race," type, or order ( see "The Return of the Shadow," p. 117). It is not until the third draught of FOTR that the exceptional character of Bombadil -- used in the trilogy -- becomes divorced enough from the pre-existing figure of the poems to become a unique creature, "oldest and fatherless," possessing great wisdom and autonomous powers. The early Bombadil of the poems does not have the overwhelming authority and might that the later LOTR version wields, hence Tom of the poems has to struggle against Willow Spirit, Badgers, Barrow Wights, and Trolls -- with no assurance that his adventures are going to have a positive outcome. In fact, as we see in "The Troll Song" poor Tom comes off the "loser" in his attempts to reclaim the remains of his kinsman. A Bombadil who can snap his fingers at the Ruling Ring, and hold the Nazgul easily at bay, should surely have been able to best a "mere" Troll? But that is just the point! The Tom Bombadil we meet in the poems, is NOT the same character we find in the 1954 version of LOTR, somewhere between 1936 and '54 Tom's character was significantly redrawn, and his earlier, familial aspects survived only in Sam's "Troll Song" poetry.
But if we divorce ourselves from text criticism, ignore the history of Tolkien's evolutionary writing, and close our eyes to the many alterations he made, I think then, that Algamesh has hit upon a very good way of explaining the contradictions between the poem and the final narrative text of LOTR - Sam was just messing around with some verses, and basing them on his, understandably, incomplete knowledge of Bombadil's past history and present nature.
Another point to be made here concerns religion in the LOTR, or rather, its lack. The 1936 version of "The Troll Song" has a decidedly Christian undertone to it, as it mentions Heaven and Hell, haloed angles, and the buring of the damned. It appears that these specific religious references were deliberately removed by the time the original was recast as Sam's poem in FOTR, ("Flight to the Ford," pp. 276-77). Here churchyard is altered to graveyard; a reference to a holy Sunday is deleted, as is the mild cuss word " 'Oddsteeth!" (swearing by "God's Teeth!"); and all references to heaven and hell are expunged (in the original version Tom himself is of the opinion that "nuncle John" is most likely roasting in Hell for his many larcenous crimes!). See "The Return of the Shadow," pp 142 - 143.
Up came Tom with his big boots on;
'Hallo!' says he, 'pray what is yon?
It looks like the leg o' me nuncle John
As should be a-lyin' in churchyard.
Searchyard, Birchyard!
'Young man,' says the troll, 'that bone I stole;
But what be bones, when mayhap the soul
In heaven on high hath an aureole
As big and as bright as a bonfire?
On fire, yon fire.
Says Tom: 'Oddsteeth! 'tis my belief,
If bonfire there be, 'tis underneath;
For old man John was a proper a thief
As ever wore black on a Sunday --
Grundy, Monday!
First Phase: LOTR in "The Return of the Shadow," pp. 143..
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/23/2002 7:34 PM
Very well done! As always our apt Dragon has shown us yet another case of things not always being what they seem. I had hopes from the begining of this course someone would find some controversial lore.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:35 PM
As I know we all have new DVDs/VHS movie to watch tonight LOL! I will breifly touch upon Stone Troll. This is our first of two encounters with Trolls in these studies and it will be interesting to contrast and compare their personalities when the time comes.
This piece could have been set down by none other than Sam Gamgee as we know from the "Preface"so we won't dwell on that. The timeline too is obviously before the War of the Ring, and if any question might be considered it would be how long had the poem been in the Shires repertoire?
Another interesting thought might be is the "Tom" character in this tale an older image of Tolkien's Bombadil?
And lastly this is by far the most childlike verse on our list, in Tolkien's timeline where do you think, or can you find when Tolkien first penned this?
This will end our first section and I am impressed by the depth that has been shown so far. I am still considering some of what we discussed. If you have any comments about previous mentioned studies please add them as our boards are open 24/7 and we(Rivers and I) will be checking back on them as we move on. Enjoy the break, and on 8/11/02 we will be opening Bilbo Baggins "Errantry" boards. Break out the "Oxfords" as it has several archaic and Old English words to look at.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/6/2002 5:14 PM
Several things. First I do not think of any of the TB poems to be childlike. I wonder if most grammar school kids in the USA would even understand alot of it. I do not think the 'Tom' of this poem is TB. Since his uncle was Tim, I think it possibly more of an alliterative sense. I find the rhyme and meter wonderfully in tune with its content, and very indicative of the type of poetry Sam could be known for (oliphaunt). I think the time line rests at the same period as Oliphaunt, and Bilbo's 3 trolls story, if not a bit earlier, since when Bilbo met the trolls, he obviously was aware of at least SOME of thier nature.
Glor
________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 21 in Discussion From: Selmo
Sent: 8/7/2002 2:58 AM
I first came across these poems more than thirty years ago and have always felt that some of them should be sung, not read. The Stone Troll is one of these.
I have since heard that Christopher Tolkien, in one of the HoME series of books, says that The Stone Troll should be sung and that his father wrote it to fit the tune of a traditional folk song, "The Fox".
Perhaps you know the song:
The Fox went out on a chilly night
And prayed for the moon to give him light
He had many miles to go that night
Before he reached the toen-o
Town-o, town-o
Hed had many miles to go that night
Before he reached the town-o.
The words to Stone Troll don't sound so silly when they are sung.
Selmo.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:07 AM
Selmo beat me to it! I was delighted to read recently that TB Goes Boating is to the tune of "Fox Went Out on the Town", and it does make a rollicking good song. Apparently Tolkien's aunt Jane Neave (Naeve?) asked for 'more about Tom Bombadil in a small book that people could afford to buy', and he wrote this poem to accompany the other 'Adventure of" and put together the Tom Bombadil collection for her. It was published a year or two before she died. (Sorry to be vague on dates but I don't have my books handy.)
In particular, I like the otter conversation. I think Tom and the otters had a very playful joking relationship. And we have no idea what Goldberry did when Tom and Farmer Maggot went out drinking. Perhaps a 'ladies night' with her Mom?
I read the two Tom poems to a freind, who was not familiar with many of the terms used. So I explained some, but got stuck myself on others. Since I had to get out the trusty dictionary anyway, I made a little 'glossary' that might be useful to others.
Withywindle = withe is a supple willow twig; windle is meandering, twisted
dingle = small wooded valley, a dell
dabchicks = grebes, diving birds
brock = badger (I thought it was a male badger but it's any badger)
wight = human being or creature
flag-lilies = water iris
sallow brakes = sallow are any of several Europen willows; brake is an overgrown area or thicket
otter fell = hide of the animal, pelt
taw = to convert animal skin to white leather by mineral tanning
swan cob = male swan
weir = fence placed in a river to catch fish
cockle boat = small and shallow boat
wherry = row boat
cheaping = market
Now a few terms I am not clear on: shaved oars? what, they grow beards?
'in upping'? as "If one day the King returns, in upping he may take you,"
(and this line answers when the poem was written, obviously before the Return of the King!)
and cockshut as in "Even in cockshut light an old friend should know me"
In upping, my guess is, refers to water birds tipping up to dabble in the mud at the bottom of the stream. Good guess or not?
And cockshut I assume to be at night, before dawn and the cock's crow. What do you think?
Zaube
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:14 AM
Ooops, I guess my above message shouldn't have been under the Stone Troll thread.
I agree that the Tom in Stone Troll is not Tom B., as Tom didn't have an uncle, at least not if he was first.
Zauber
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 21 in Discussion From: Selmo
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:35 AM
Swan-upping was a process of catching and marking swans with their owners brand, usually by clipping notches in the bill.
A traditional, ceremonial swan-upping is carried out each year on the River Thames in England each year and the swans marked as belonging to the Queen. All swans on the Thames are reguarded as the property of the Crown.
Selmo.
________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/7/2002 7:54 AM
Oh thank you Selmo! That's really interesting, and makes for a clearer picture of Tom's threat to the cob! I love words and strange expressions, so now I have a new one! Thanks so much, Zauber
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 21 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:16 PM
Selmo, thanks so much for the tip about the song (Zauber, you get credit, too!). I agree with you that many of Tolkien's poems would be better sung; so many of them practically make their own music.
I hadn't heard "The Fox" so set out to find a midi file of the melody, which I have attached to this message. Is this the tune you're familiar with?
Thanks, too, for the info on "swan-upping" -- doesn't sound like too much fun for the swans, although I'm glad the Thames swans get the protection of the crown. Now, if you can just tell us about "oar-shaving" we'll be all set. Are they scraping off barnacles? Trying to make the oars smoother?
Olórië
TheFox.mid
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/8/2002 7:07 AM
On the subject of songs and music, there is both a book and a record "The Road Goes Ever On: A Song Cycle", music by Donald Swan (Of Flanders and Swan, "At The Drop of a Hat") and poems by J.R.R. Tolkien. Book was published by Allen & Unwin, 1968. Primarily the songs are from LOTR, but do include On Errantry.
I don't have the record handy (I'm at work, shh!) but the songs are sung by William Elvin, and he and Donald Swan performed them for Tolkien and Edith's 50th Wedding Anniversary. I wish more of the Tolkien songs had been put to music! Escpecially the Tom Bombadil songs would be so much fun to sing.
Zaube
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 21 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/8/2002 1:40 PM
I confess -- I was happy to see Swann's music created and produced, but I always wished I liked it more than I did. I haven't heard it in many years so will give it a relisten and maybe it will sound better this time. But I did think, while watching the FotR movie, that I liked their treatment of "The Road Goes Ever On" much better than Swann's; it sounded much more 'authentic' to me. We just hear a little of the new tune in the movie -- it's the song Gandalf is singing to himself as he drives into Hobbiton.
The book, though, is fantastic!
Olórië
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 21 in Discussion
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:21 PM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:24 PM
I liked "The Road goes ever on" from the song cycle best also. I used to play it on the piano when I was a kid. I also liked "I sit beside the fire". I never heard the record, I would just sing them to myself as I played. We should put all these midi and wavs on a page here.
Glor
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 9:03 AM
I have seen a couple of responses that suggest that the "Tom" of The Stone Troll is not Tom Bombadil. I must disagree for a couple of different reasons:
1. The poem is written under a compilation of tales concerning Tom Bombadil.
2. The illustrations in the Poem depict Bombadil.
Having said this, I agree that the part about "nuncle Tim" is curious as well as the reference to "my father's kin". I believe I have a reasonable explanation for it though. Samwise was the author of this piece and he has stated previously that he dabbles in a bit o' comic ryhme. Sam IS authoring a verse about Bombadil but that doesn't mean that he has to stay completely true to Tom's being. It's quite possible that Sam cannot digest the fact that Tom is a unique entity and therefore he creates relatives for Tom in his literature. I don't believe that Sam intended anyone to take his poem literally or in a historically accurate sense. It was only a bit o' fun in tribute to Bombadil.
Algamesh
Reply
Message 14 of 21 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/11/2002 6:42 PM
Olorie, Thank you so much for the midi link of the Fox. I reread, or I should say I sang (Karaoke style), Stone Troll. What a difference singing brings to the meaning and enjoyment of this poem. What fun! You and your friends out in Brandywine didn't happen to sing this, did you? What a perfect setting for such a song. Reminds me of my old campfire days. Wouldn't that have been a treat if we had known Stone Troll way back then.
Annie
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 21 in Discussion From: Karo6
Sent: 8/23/2002 7:09 PM
A bit more information to cloud an already confusing topic: Was the Tom Bombadil of the LOTR the same Bombadil of the early poems?
Was Tom Bombadil a unique creature, sui generis, or could the peculiar fellow have had relatives after all? Did he have an uncle, Tim, or John, and was Farmer Maggot one of his cousins!?
At the time the original Bombadil poem "The Troll Song" was published ("Songs for the Philologists," first titled "The Root of the Boot," -- University College, London, 1936) Tom Bombadil was conceived as having a more normal family structure and his unfortunate, Troll devoured (but not Troll killed) kinsman was "nuncle John" rather than "nuncle Tim." Bombadil continued to have this normative "clan" based existence all the way through the first drafts of the FOTR (written by 1947). In fact, somewhere in the 1940s, Tolkien was trying out the concept that Farmer Maggot should be a kinsman of Tom's, or at least a creature of the same "race," type, or order ( see "The Return of the Shadow," p. 117). It is not until the third draught of FOTR that the exceptional character of Bombadil -- used in the trilogy -- becomes divorced enough from the pre-existing figure of the poems to become a unique creature, "oldest and fatherless," possessing great wisdom and autonomous powers. The early Bombadil of the poems does not have the overwhelming authority and might that the later LOTR version wields, hence Tom of the poems has to struggle against Willow Spirit, Badgers, Barrow Wights, and Trolls -- with no assurance that his adventures are going to have a positive outcome. In fact, as we see in "The Troll Song" poor Tom comes off the "loser" in his attempts to reclaim the remains of his kinsman. A Bombadil who can snap his fingers at the Ruling Ring, and hold the Nazgul easily at bay, should surely have been able to best a "mere" Troll? But that is just the point! The Tom Bombadil we meet in the poems, is NOT the same character we find in the 1954 version of LOTR, somewhere between 1936 and '54 Tom's character was significantly redrawn, and his earlier, familial aspects survived only in Sam's "Troll Song" poetry.
But if we divorce ourselves from text criticism, ignore the history of Tolkien's evolutionary writing, and close our eyes to the many alterations he made, I think then, that Algamesh has hit upon a very good way of explaining the contradictions between the poem and the final narrative text of LOTR - Sam was just messing around with some verses, and basing them on his, understandably, incomplete knowledge of Bombadil's past history and present nature.
Another point to be made here concerns religion in the LOTR, or rather, its lack. The 1936 version of "The Troll Song" has a decidedly Christian undertone to it, as it mentions Heaven and Hell, haloed angles, and the buring of the damned. It appears that these specific religious references were deliberately removed by the time the original was recast as Sam's poem in FOTR, ("Flight to the Ford," pp. 276-77). Here churchyard is altered to graveyard; a reference to a holy Sunday is deleted, as is the mild cuss word " 'Oddsteeth!" (swearing by "God's Teeth!"); and all references to heaven and hell are expunged (in the original version Tom himself is of the opinion that "nuncle John" is most likely roasting in Hell for his many larcenous crimes!). See "The Return of the Shadow," pp 142 - 143.
Up came Tom with his big boots on;
'Hallo!' says he, 'pray what is yon?
It looks like the leg o' me nuncle John
As should be a-lyin' in churchyard.
Searchyard, Birchyard!
'Young man,' says the troll, 'that bone I stole;
But what be bones, when mayhap the soul
In heaven on high hath an aureole
As big and as bright as a bonfire?
On fire, yon fire.
Says Tom: 'Oddsteeth! 'tis my belief,
If bonfire there be, 'tis underneath;
For old man John was a proper a thief
As ever wore black on a Sunday --
Grundy, Monday!
First Phase: LOTR in "The Return of the Shadow," pp. 143..
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/23/2002 7:34 PM
Very well done! As always our apt Dragon has shown us yet another case of things not always being what they seem. I had hopes from the begining of this course someone would find some controversial lore.
Namárië,
Iarwain