Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 18:15:47 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Perry-the-Winkle
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Message 1 of 5 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 3:42 PM
This seems to be another tale of a poor wanderer seeking friendship and understanding in a cruel judgmental world. In this case, it is a rather sad but benevolent little troll who is feared and misunderstood until he meets Perry-the-Winkle. (shades of Strider came to mind)
I have a few questions.
<DIR>
As far as I know this is the only time Tolkien looks kindly upon a troll. Why do you think he would cast a troll in this light? (And, if there be gentle trolls in Tolkien’s mind, why not orcs?)
What could be in the make-up and heart of Perry that he feels so compassionate toward the troll? Surely, he has been carefully taught by his elders to fear and hate trolls?
Why did Troll reject the People who apparently had set aside their fears and came calling at his door?
</DIR>
This poem brought me warm "fuzzies" but I feared the worse and was ready to take out a hankie when I read:
"Then all the People went with a will,
by pony, cart, or moke,
until they came to a house in a hill
and saw a chimney smoke."
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Message 2 of 5 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/31/2002 11:19 PM
The Troll is the only one left, and either because he has always been so inclined or has changed his ways, he doesn't do the things Trolls usually do. Because of their reputation for being evil and mean, Trolls still frightened the people and they were unwilling to befriend the lonely Troll.
I have to give Perry-the-Winkle credit. He is the only person willing to take his chance with the Troll and give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he took pity on the Troll when he saw him sitting and weeping.
The line "You're better outside than in!" which is spoken by Perry, leaves me to believe that the people in the village may not be such great people themselves. Perry himself may have been friendless because the people in town did not appeal to him. So here was his chance to make a friend. Perry and the Troll where possibly both outcasts.
The Troll turned the other people away because they were not worthy of his attention since they could not give him the time of day when he was seeking it in friendship. After the people saw how much Perry was benefitting from being the Troll's friend, they came looking for the Troll and were trying to mooch some of his baked goodies for themselves.
Stormrider
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Message 3 of 5 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 9/1/2002 11:39 AM
When I first read this poem, I was puzzled at first why Troll didn't welcome the people when they finally came around, but then it occurred to me that he realized they just wanted to use him for his baking skills.
Winkle, on the other hand, reached out to Troll when he was down, and before Winkle knew Troll had skills that he would enjoy.
This poem does suggest to me that maybe orcs could be redeemable. And we should decide that on an individual basis, like here, where this one troll is different from the others that are rightly feared and shunned.
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Message 4 of 5 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 9:00 AM
I like the way you guys picked up on the isolation of this lonely Troll, probably one of Karo's rehabilitated ones I'm sure.
Things I noted about the poem were the names of the Hobbits in the Shire. If I recall correctly Hobbit names seem to be either Botanical or descriptive in some sense. In Delving however we have names such as Mrs.Bunce, Old Pott the Mayor, Old Farmer Hogg, and Bill Butcher, which only loosely sounds of Hobbit names. Perry-the-Winkle is our only Botanical Hobbit name within this verse, and is also the Hobbit which befriends our poor Troll.
I also noted Tolkien's use of the word Lockholes gate, assures me the Delving he speaks of in the poem is Michel Delving and and that would explain the Mayors presence. I am curious and have not found a reference yet if the term Lockholes was used previous to the Scouring of the Shire, it would give me a clear idea as to when this was penned in the Shire.
According to the Preface Sam is the Hobbit who wrote this piece of comic verse, but it is unclear if is an old Shire tale he touched up, or if it is an original by him.
I have yet to come acrossed any mention of this poem before 1962 so I suspect it was originally written after the pulication of the Trilogy. Any help?
In all a delightful comic verse with a great message: "Don't judge a book by it's cover!"
Namárië
Iarwain
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Message 5 of 5 in Discussion From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/26/2003 8:16 PM
I count this poem to be one of my favorites in the collection. I think it has to do with not judging a book by its cover. Now if I could only find a redeemed Orc...
The reason why I post today is because a trivial tibit came my way from another Tolkien Forum. A Hobbit named Mrs. Bunce is mentioned in the poem AND there is one mention of a (Miss?) Mimosa Bunce marrying Ponto Baggins in the Baggins Family tree found in Appendix C of RotK. This is the only Bunce to be found in LotR. --DA
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 5 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 3:42 PM
This seems to be another tale of a poor wanderer seeking friendship and understanding in a cruel judgmental world. In this case, it is a rather sad but benevolent little troll who is feared and misunderstood until he meets Perry-the-Winkle. (shades of Strider came to mind)
I have a few questions.
<DIR>
As far as I know this is the only time Tolkien looks kindly upon a troll. Why do you think he would cast a troll in this light? (And, if there be gentle trolls in Tolkien’s mind, why not orcs?)
What could be in the make-up and heart of Perry that he feels so compassionate toward the troll? Surely, he has been carefully taught by his elders to fear and hate trolls?
Why did Troll reject the People who apparently had set aside their fears and came calling at his door?
</DIR>
This poem brought me warm "fuzzies" but I feared the worse and was ready to take out a hankie when I read:
"Then all the People went with a will,
by pony, cart, or moke,
until they came to a house in a hill
and saw a chimney smoke."
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 5 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/31/2002 11:19 PM
The Troll is the only one left, and either because he has always been so inclined or has changed his ways, he doesn't do the things Trolls usually do. Because of their reputation for being evil and mean, Trolls still frightened the people and they were unwilling to befriend the lonely Troll.
I have to give Perry-the-Winkle credit. He is the only person willing to take his chance with the Troll and give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he took pity on the Troll when he saw him sitting and weeping.
The line "You're better outside than in!" which is spoken by Perry, leaves me to believe that the people in the village may not be such great people themselves. Perry himself may have been friendless because the people in town did not appeal to him. So here was his chance to make a friend. Perry and the Troll where possibly both outcasts.
The Troll turned the other people away because they were not worthy of his attention since they could not give him the time of day when he was seeking it in friendship. After the people saw how much Perry was benefitting from being the Troll's friend, they came looking for the Troll and were trying to mooch some of his baked goodies for themselves.
Stormrider
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 5 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 9/1/2002 11:39 AM
When I first read this poem, I was puzzled at first why Troll didn't welcome the people when they finally came around, but then it occurred to me that he realized they just wanted to use him for his baking skills.
Winkle, on the other hand, reached out to Troll when he was down, and before Winkle knew Troll had skills that he would enjoy.
This poem does suggest to me that maybe orcs could be redeemable. And we should decide that on an individual basis, like here, where this one troll is different from the others that are rightly feared and shunned.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 5 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 9:00 AM
I like the way you guys picked up on the isolation of this lonely Troll, probably one of Karo's rehabilitated ones I'm sure.
Things I noted about the poem were the names of the Hobbits in the Shire. If I recall correctly Hobbit names seem to be either Botanical or descriptive in some sense. In Delving however we have names such as Mrs.Bunce, Old Pott the Mayor, Old Farmer Hogg, and Bill Butcher, which only loosely sounds of Hobbit names. Perry-the-Winkle is our only Botanical Hobbit name within this verse, and is also the Hobbit which befriends our poor Troll.
I also noted Tolkien's use of the word Lockholes gate, assures me the Delving he speaks of in the poem is Michel Delving and and that would explain the Mayors presence. I am curious and have not found a reference yet if the term Lockholes was used previous to the Scouring of the Shire, it would give me a clear idea as to when this was penned in the Shire.
According to the Preface Sam is the Hobbit who wrote this piece of comic verse, but it is unclear if is an old Shire tale he touched up, or if it is an original by him.
I have yet to come acrossed any mention of this poem before 1962 so I suspect it was originally written after the pulication of the Trilogy. Any help?
In all a delightful comic verse with a great message: "Don't judge a book by it's cover!"
Namárië
Iarwain
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 5 in Discussion From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/26/2003 8:16 PM
I count this poem to be one of my favorites in the collection. I think it has to do with not judging a book by its cover. Now if I could only find a redeemed Orc...
The reason why I post today is because a trivial tibit came my way from another Tolkien Forum. A Hobbit named Mrs. Bunce is mentioned in the poem AND there is one mention of a (Miss?) Mimosa Bunce marrying Ponto Baggins in the Baggins Family tree found in Appendix C of RotK. This is the only Bunce to be found in LotR. --DA