Post by Andorinha on Jan 16, 2009 5:27:07 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE: In the Beginning...
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 33 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 2/20/2002 11:38 PM
Having only this evening begun The Silmarillian, I find the ideas in "Ainulindale," "Valaquenta," and "Of the beginning of days" quite interesting. Of course the parallels with Christian mythology are pretty obvious with Iluvatar equating to God, Manwe being Jesus Christ, and Melkor being Lucifer. The presence of the other Valar, however, brings to mind the Greek and Roman pantheons of multiple gods, some lesser than others (which hardly seems to jibe with Tolkien's vaunted Catholicism). However, beyond these parallels, Tolkien's rewriting of "The Book of Genesis" certainly introduces an element of poetic mysticism that I find lacking in the Bible: In Tolkien's version, pure thought (Iluvatar's thought, that is) seems to be at the basis of Creation. Then Iluvatar creates the Ainur who transpose his thought into music. The music is then transposed into a vision of Creation which is then made manifest by Iluvatar. This seems to say that music is second only to pure thought is being the most elemental thing in the universe.
Did Tolkien study music as he did linguistics, or did he simply admire it?
Bill
___________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 33 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 2/21/2002 5:59 AM
I don't know if Tolkien studied music but I'm sure he admired it. Doesn't everyone? Just close your eyes and listen to some good music no matter whether it is classical, rock, blues, new age, etc. What scenes does the music provoke in your mind? Even Walt Disney did this with his Fantasia movies. He created his thoughts from what he pictured the music to be. That is how the music of the Ainur became the thoughts of Iluvatar--mostly beautiful except for the uglier sounds from Melkor.
Music is a basic part of human nature. People have been creating it from the beginning of time with the simple sounds of beating drums to the invention of instruments and more developed orchestrations. Music portrays love, beauty, horror, suspense, action, and much more. I can see it creating the landscape for the world.
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 33 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 2/21/2002 10:31 AM
Perhaps Tolkien had in mind "the Music of the Spheres." It would be interesting to know which came first, the Ainur transposing Iluvatar's thought into music or CS Lewis's Aslan singing the creation of Narnia. Or did both ideas come from a common source? (Oh, my gosh--does this sound like Bible scholars! lol )
MusicMom
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 33 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 2/21/2002 11:21 AM
Tolkien 's work on the Silmarillion predated CS Lewis's Narnia books. In fact, several ideas were 'borrowed' from Tolkien. I have wondered if this contributed to the cooling of their friendship, but never found a direct quote indicating so.
But the idea of singing a world or being into existence is a very old idea. I came across reference to it, perhaps in the Mabinogian (Welsh Tales). If I can remember and be more precice, I'll let you know.
Zauber
______________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 33 in Discussion
From: Tumnus
Sent: 2/21/2002 12:35 PM
Tolkien's creation account is lovely, isn't it? I love your point about music being so tied to the elements of creation. I think that it absolutely is. Actually, I think that art in general is a very important part of our being; it would be a drab, utilitarian brave new world with out our love for art.
I have a small criticism about Tolkien's creation account, though. By having the 'angels' create middle earth, Tolkien leans towards a theology called gnosticism (not agnosticism). Gnosticism is the idea that God is distant from us because He is so holy. Taken to its extreme, gnosticism states that Jesus couldn't have been human (i.e. flesh) as the Bible states, but only appeared to be human, and therefore only appeared to die on the cross. The problem is that if Jesus wasn't flesh and didn't die on the cross, then our sins are still not covered.
However, I am in no way suggesting that Tolkien believed any of this. I read somewhere that he 'liked to think' that the angels had a part in creating in the world. It's as if it was just a pleasant idea for him. And since he called Middle Earth a mythology, he can pretty much use as much artistic license as he wants. I said I only had a small criticism; I really do think that his creation account is beautiful, and I couldn't write a better one.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 33 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 2/21/2002 1:58 PM
A Gnostic would say that Christ's death is immaterial to one's salvation; what is material are his life and teachings. But I believe I've read that Tolkien didn't set out to write a book that reflected Christian philosophy; although he acknowledged that Catholicism is fundamental to the value system, he chose to be (please forgive the pun!) more catholic in creating his Middle-earth world-view.
But you're right, there are some interesting parallels between Gnosticism and the world-view in The Silmarillion -- one is that Gnostics say their religious experience is most closely related to and expressed through myth, and many of their scriptures take the form of myths.
As for music -- what a great question. It seems clear he loved it; he must have imagined music for all the songs he wrote. Or perhaps, when trying to imagine pure thought, he realized his choices were music or mathematics. If that's true, I'm glad he chose the way he did!
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 33 in Discussion
From: Tumnus
Sent: 2/21/2002 2:07 PM
If music played a part in the beginning and is a part of our being, doesn't it seem as if music died, we would too? We'd have lost something as vital as our heart or lungs. Tolkien knew art's power over the soul, and that's why his creation story has such poignancy. Don Mc Lean had some thoughts on this too (I love this song):
'Something touched me deep inside the day the music died...
Did you write the book of love,
And do you have faith in God above,
If the Bible tells you so?
Now do you believe in Rock 'n Roll,
Can music save your mortal soul,
And can you teach me how to dance, real slow?...
I knew I was out of luck, the day the music died...
And while the King was looking down,
The jester stole his thorny crown,
The court room was adjourned...
And we sang dirges in the dark,
The day the music died...
And there we were all in one place,
A generation lost in space...
Cuz fire is the devil's only friend.
Oh, and as I watched him on the stage,
My hands were clenched in fists of rage,
No angel born in hell could break that Satan spell
And as the planes climbed high into the night
To light the sacrificial rite,
I saw Satan laughing with delight,
The day the music died.
He (satan) was singn'
Bye, bye Miss American Pie...
I met a girl who sang the blues,
And I asked her for some happy news.
She just smiled 'n turned away.
I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there said the music wouldn't play.
In the streets the children screamed,
The lovers cried and the poets dreamed,
But not a word was spoken,
The churchbells all were broken,
And the three men I admire most,
The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost,
They caught the last train for the coast,
The day the music died.'
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 33 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 2/21/2002 3:53 PM
Zauber, again you have really helped to me out. Right now I have so many areas of my life that are demanding almost full time attention that I no longer have time to to the kind of research on topics that I would like. This board is so wonderful because there is so much knowledge and so many willing poster who do the research for me. So many people have answered questions for me and also stimulated my thinking. You have no idea how much the BNU class and this board has become a haven of sanity and enjoyment for me. Thank you to all.
If you found a reference to singing worlds into existance in Welsh mythology could we assume that this (or a similar myth) may have suggested the idea to Tolkien?
MusicMom
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 33 in Discussion
Sent: 2/21/2002 4:05 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 33 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 2/21/2002 4:07 PM
Perhaps the only way to make anything happen in the void is through music and thought. As it was outside the world physical properties are possibly minimal if they exist as they would on Arda thus making physical actions such as building or creating by hand impossible. Also the Iluvator allowed the music to form Arda giving me the feeling he had the power of diety veto. He allowed free will to his minions and then shaped thier ideas into his scheme. So it seems the only true power in the void would be Iluvator's thoughts.
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 33 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 2/21/2002 9:06 PM
Bill Fuller,
You say
> Iluvatar equating to God, Manwe being Jesus Christ, and Melkor being Lucifer
I have to disagree on the middle one. Manwe definitely does not play the same role as Jesus. He is more like the archangel Gabriel. Manwe is definitely subordinate to Iluvatar, and of the same order of being as all the other "angels."
Otherwise, you've got it right.
Tumnus,
I don't see this story as being gnostic. I am not Catholic, and wasn't raised Catholic, so I could be wrong, but I see Tolkien's Catholicism strongly reflected in this story.
Iluvatar gives "being" to the world (Arda), something which none of the Ainur can do. He gives them vision. So he is the creator. He works through the Ainur, and he doesn't leave the scene altogether. His distance is not because he is so holy, but because he chooses to give to his created beings (Ainur and the children) the freedom to make their own choices, and express the gifts which he has given them.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 33 in Discussion
Sent: 2/22/2002 12:39 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 33 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 2/22/2002 8:26 AM
MusicMom, I am zipping (HaHa) through the Mabinogian in search of 'singing the world into being', and did come across this, off the topic, but interesting:
"the fabulous, mysterious battle of Cad Goddeu, when Gwydion turned trees to men and marshalled them against the Forces of Faery. . . . . Was it perhaps because of the memory of loss of life in the war with Dyved . . . that Gwydion turned trees into warriors to protect the men of Gwynedd? . . . after the army that had been a forest had been disbanded to settle down and grow leaves again."
I remember a discussion at the Barnes&Noble site about Ents, and someone mentioned another battle (In Shakespeare maybe) where trees came to life. Maybe Shippey will shed some light on this!
Zauber
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 33 in Discussion
From: DeadChickenMan
Sent: 2/28/2002 12:26 PM
This was covered a little on the B&N board, and my thoughts now are only a reflection of when they were young... but here goes anyway. Tolkien uses the terms magic and music as synonims. Note how the dwarves (The Hobbit), and our hero Bilbo began to fall asleep as the Elves began to sing. Also note how the same affect was present in the hall in Rivendale when Frodo had arrived. Bilbo mentioned then how it was hard to stay awake. Although you never see the Elves performing magic, you constantly see its effects, and those effects always follow music or singing. The dwarves' singing also brings magic, but of a different kind. It invokes the love of gold and maybe even a little greed (remember the unexpected party and the feelings awakened in Bilbo at the end of the song?). The question however isn't whether or not Tolkien meant music to be magic, but rather where did the idea come from. From our discussion here, it almost seems it was the welsh mythology that gave it to him.
As for Tolkien's ideas being Gnostic: Of course they were, if you relate them to christianity. But then again, the Greek notion of gnostacism has been present in the catholic church at least since the second (or is it third?) century AD. While I personally see connections to my own religion in Tokiens' work, I think that is proof of Tolkiens own philosophy that truth is in all man's mythologies, not just in "the church" (B&N Class Lecture two).
Now I feel my mind lessing again and hear the call of the sea (or is it lunch?). DCM
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 33 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 2/28/2002 2:15 PM
>As for Tolkien's ideas being Gnostic: Of course they were, if you relate them to >christianity. But then again, the Greek notion of gnostacism has been present in the >catholic church at least since the second (or is it third?) century AD.
Well, if you put it that way... I experience Tolkien's ideas as being very "Catholic." If you are saying he was gnostic in the way that the Catholic church is gnostic, I'll go along with that.
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 33 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/3/2002 2:49 PM
I remember a discussion at the Barnes&Noble site about Ents, and someone mentioned another battle (In Shakespeare maybe) where trees came to life.
I believe the reference was to Macbeth, in which Macduff's army is able to approach Dunsinane castle undetected by carrying tree branches cut from Birnam Wood in front of them. The trees did not actually come to life, though, to an observer from the castle, it did appear as though Birnam Wood were on the march!
Speaking of Shakespeare's Macbeth, did everyone notice another parallel? The Ringwraith is destroyed by a sword wielded by a woman, thereby neatly sidestepping the fact that he can never be killed by man. Similarly, Macbeth is killed by Macduff, who was from his "mother's womb untimely ripped" by Cesarian delivery, sidestepping the prophecy that Macbeth can never be killed by "man of woman born."
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 33 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 2/20/2002 11:38 PM
Having only this evening begun The Silmarillian, I find the ideas in "Ainulindale," "Valaquenta," and "Of the beginning of days" quite interesting. Of course the parallels with Christian mythology are pretty obvious with Iluvatar equating to God, Manwe being Jesus Christ, and Melkor being Lucifer. The presence of the other Valar, however, brings to mind the Greek and Roman pantheons of multiple gods, some lesser than others (which hardly seems to jibe with Tolkien's vaunted Catholicism). However, beyond these parallels, Tolkien's rewriting of "The Book of Genesis" certainly introduces an element of poetic mysticism that I find lacking in the Bible: In Tolkien's version, pure thought (Iluvatar's thought, that is) seems to be at the basis of Creation. Then Iluvatar creates the Ainur who transpose his thought into music. The music is then transposed into a vision of Creation which is then made manifest by Iluvatar. This seems to say that music is second only to pure thought is being the most elemental thing in the universe.
Did Tolkien study music as he did linguistics, or did he simply admire it?
Bill
___________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 33 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 2/21/2002 5:59 AM
I don't know if Tolkien studied music but I'm sure he admired it. Doesn't everyone? Just close your eyes and listen to some good music no matter whether it is classical, rock, blues, new age, etc. What scenes does the music provoke in your mind? Even Walt Disney did this with his Fantasia movies. He created his thoughts from what he pictured the music to be. That is how the music of the Ainur became the thoughts of Iluvatar--mostly beautiful except for the uglier sounds from Melkor.
Music is a basic part of human nature. People have been creating it from the beginning of time with the simple sounds of beating drums to the invention of instruments and more developed orchestrations. Music portrays love, beauty, horror, suspense, action, and much more. I can see it creating the landscape for the world.
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 33 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 2/21/2002 10:31 AM
Perhaps Tolkien had in mind "the Music of the Spheres." It would be interesting to know which came first, the Ainur transposing Iluvatar's thought into music or CS Lewis's Aslan singing the creation of Narnia. Or did both ideas come from a common source? (Oh, my gosh--does this sound like Bible scholars! lol )
MusicMom
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 33 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 2/21/2002 11:21 AM
Tolkien 's work on the Silmarillion predated CS Lewis's Narnia books. In fact, several ideas were 'borrowed' from Tolkien. I have wondered if this contributed to the cooling of their friendship, but never found a direct quote indicating so.
But the idea of singing a world or being into existence is a very old idea. I came across reference to it, perhaps in the Mabinogian (Welsh Tales). If I can remember and be more precice, I'll let you know.
Zauber
______________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 33 in Discussion
From: Tumnus
Sent: 2/21/2002 12:35 PM
Tolkien's creation account is lovely, isn't it? I love your point about music being so tied to the elements of creation. I think that it absolutely is. Actually, I think that art in general is a very important part of our being; it would be a drab, utilitarian brave new world with out our love for art.
I have a small criticism about Tolkien's creation account, though. By having the 'angels' create middle earth, Tolkien leans towards a theology called gnosticism (not agnosticism). Gnosticism is the idea that God is distant from us because He is so holy. Taken to its extreme, gnosticism states that Jesus couldn't have been human (i.e. flesh) as the Bible states, but only appeared to be human, and therefore only appeared to die on the cross. The problem is that if Jesus wasn't flesh and didn't die on the cross, then our sins are still not covered.
However, I am in no way suggesting that Tolkien believed any of this. I read somewhere that he 'liked to think' that the angels had a part in creating in the world. It's as if it was just a pleasant idea for him. And since he called Middle Earth a mythology, he can pretty much use as much artistic license as he wants. I said I only had a small criticism; I really do think that his creation account is beautiful, and I couldn't write a better one.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 33 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 2/21/2002 1:58 PM
A Gnostic would say that Christ's death is immaterial to one's salvation; what is material are his life and teachings. But I believe I've read that Tolkien didn't set out to write a book that reflected Christian philosophy; although he acknowledged that Catholicism is fundamental to the value system, he chose to be (please forgive the pun!) more catholic in creating his Middle-earth world-view.
But you're right, there are some interesting parallels between Gnosticism and the world-view in The Silmarillion -- one is that Gnostics say their religious experience is most closely related to and expressed through myth, and many of their scriptures take the form of myths.
As for music -- what a great question. It seems clear he loved it; he must have imagined music for all the songs he wrote. Or perhaps, when trying to imagine pure thought, he realized his choices were music or mathematics. If that's true, I'm glad he chose the way he did!
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 33 in Discussion
From: Tumnus
Sent: 2/21/2002 2:07 PM
If music played a part in the beginning and is a part of our being, doesn't it seem as if music died, we would too? We'd have lost something as vital as our heart or lungs. Tolkien knew art's power over the soul, and that's why his creation story has such poignancy. Don Mc Lean had some thoughts on this too (I love this song):
'Something touched me deep inside the day the music died...
Did you write the book of love,
And do you have faith in God above,
If the Bible tells you so?
Now do you believe in Rock 'n Roll,
Can music save your mortal soul,
And can you teach me how to dance, real slow?...
I knew I was out of luck, the day the music died...
And while the King was looking down,
The jester stole his thorny crown,
The court room was adjourned...
And we sang dirges in the dark,
The day the music died...
And there we were all in one place,
A generation lost in space...
Cuz fire is the devil's only friend.
Oh, and as I watched him on the stage,
My hands were clenched in fists of rage,
No angel born in hell could break that Satan spell
And as the planes climbed high into the night
To light the sacrificial rite,
I saw Satan laughing with delight,
The day the music died.
He (satan) was singn'
Bye, bye Miss American Pie...
I met a girl who sang the blues,
And I asked her for some happy news.
She just smiled 'n turned away.
I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there said the music wouldn't play.
In the streets the children screamed,
The lovers cried and the poets dreamed,
But not a word was spoken,
The churchbells all were broken,
And the three men I admire most,
The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost,
They caught the last train for the coast,
The day the music died.'
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 33 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 2/21/2002 3:53 PM
Zauber, again you have really helped to me out. Right now I have so many areas of my life that are demanding almost full time attention that I no longer have time to to the kind of research on topics that I would like. This board is so wonderful because there is so much knowledge and so many willing poster who do the research for me. So many people have answered questions for me and also stimulated my thinking. You have no idea how much the BNU class and this board has become a haven of sanity and enjoyment for me. Thank you to all.
If you found a reference to singing worlds into existance in Welsh mythology could we assume that this (or a similar myth) may have suggested the idea to Tolkien?
MusicMom
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 33 in Discussion
Sent: 2/21/2002 4:05 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 33 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 2/21/2002 4:07 PM
Perhaps the only way to make anything happen in the void is through music and thought. As it was outside the world physical properties are possibly minimal if they exist as they would on Arda thus making physical actions such as building or creating by hand impossible. Also the Iluvator allowed the music to form Arda giving me the feeling he had the power of diety veto. He allowed free will to his minions and then shaped thier ideas into his scheme. So it seems the only true power in the void would be Iluvator's thoughts.
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 33 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 2/21/2002 9:06 PM
Bill Fuller,
You say
> Iluvatar equating to God, Manwe being Jesus Christ, and Melkor being Lucifer
I have to disagree on the middle one. Manwe definitely does not play the same role as Jesus. He is more like the archangel Gabriel. Manwe is definitely subordinate to Iluvatar, and of the same order of being as all the other "angels."
Otherwise, you've got it right.
Tumnus,
I don't see this story as being gnostic. I am not Catholic, and wasn't raised Catholic, so I could be wrong, but I see Tolkien's Catholicism strongly reflected in this story.
Iluvatar gives "being" to the world (Arda), something which none of the Ainur can do. He gives them vision. So he is the creator. He works through the Ainur, and he doesn't leave the scene altogether. His distance is not because he is so holy, but because he chooses to give to his created beings (Ainur and the children) the freedom to make their own choices, and express the gifts which he has given them.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 33 in Discussion
Sent: 2/22/2002 12:39 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 33 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 2/22/2002 8:26 AM
MusicMom, I am zipping (HaHa) through the Mabinogian in search of 'singing the world into being', and did come across this, off the topic, but interesting:
"the fabulous, mysterious battle of Cad Goddeu, when Gwydion turned trees to men and marshalled them against the Forces of Faery. . . . . Was it perhaps because of the memory of loss of life in the war with Dyved . . . that Gwydion turned trees into warriors to protect the men of Gwynedd? . . . after the army that had been a forest had been disbanded to settle down and grow leaves again."
I remember a discussion at the Barnes&Noble site about Ents, and someone mentioned another battle (In Shakespeare maybe) where trees came to life. Maybe Shippey will shed some light on this!
Zauber
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 33 in Discussion
From: DeadChickenMan
Sent: 2/28/2002 12:26 PM
This was covered a little on the B&N board, and my thoughts now are only a reflection of when they were young... but here goes anyway. Tolkien uses the terms magic and music as synonims. Note how the dwarves (The Hobbit), and our hero Bilbo began to fall asleep as the Elves began to sing. Also note how the same affect was present in the hall in Rivendale when Frodo had arrived. Bilbo mentioned then how it was hard to stay awake. Although you never see the Elves performing magic, you constantly see its effects, and those effects always follow music or singing. The dwarves' singing also brings magic, but of a different kind. It invokes the love of gold and maybe even a little greed (remember the unexpected party and the feelings awakened in Bilbo at the end of the song?). The question however isn't whether or not Tolkien meant music to be magic, but rather where did the idea come from. From our discussion here, it almost seems it was the welsh mythology that gave it to him.
As for Tolkien's ideas being Gnostic: Of course they were, if you relate them to christianity. But then again, the Greek notion of gnostacism has been present in the catholic church at least since the second (or is it third?) century AD. While I personally see connections to my own religion in Tokiens' work, I think that is proof of Tolkiens own philosophy that truth is in all man's mythologies, not just in "the church" (B&N Class Lecture two).
Now I feel my mind lessing again and hear the call of the sea (or is it lunch?). DCM
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 33 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 2/28/2002 2:15 PM
>As for Tolkien's ideas being Gnostic: Of course they were, if you relate them to >christianity. But then again, the Greek notion of gnostacism has been present in the >catholic church at least since the second (or is it third?) century AD.
Well, if you put it that way... I experience Tolkien's ideas as being very "Catholic." If you are saying he was gnostic in the way that the Catholic church is gnostic, I'll go along with that.
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 33 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/3/2002 2:49 PM
I remember a discussion at the Barnes&Noble site about Ents, and someone mentioned another battle (In Shakespeare maybe) where trees came to life.
I believe the reference was to Macbeth, in which Macduff's army is able to approach Dunsinane castle undetected by carrying tree branches cut from Birnam Wood in front of them. The trees did not actually come to life, though, to an observer from the castle, it did appear as though Birnam Wood were on the march!
Speaking of Shakespeare's Macbeth, did everyone notice another parallel? The Ringwraith is destroyed by a sword wielded by a woman, thereby neatly sidestepping the fact that he can never be killed by man. Similarly, Macbeth is killed by Macduff, who was from his "mother's womb untimely ripped" by Cesarian delivery, sidestepping the prophecy that Macbeth can never be killed by "man of woman born."