Post by Andorinha on Jan 16, 2009 16:46:47 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE: Week One - Creation Myths
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Recommend Message 1 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1 (Original Message) Sent: 4/13/2002 9:02 PM
Creation Myths
It’s tempting to start analyzing the music, and the “themes” presented by Iluvatar, looking for connections between the descriptions of the music and the creation that is to come. But I suspect that if we do that we will inevitably end up discussing events which are yet to come in the book. So in the effort to avoid spoilers let’s save the discussion of the meaning of the themes until we are on our second trip through the book.
Instead, I’d be interested to hear about other creation stories that people know – both those of various cultures and religions, and those of other fantasy worlds. Are there other examples of creation through music? How about the three stage creation – music, vision, and then reality? Think of creation stories you have known, and compare and contrast them with Tolkien’s.
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Message 2 of 12 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/13/2002 10:48 PM
megn1,
You have really opened up quite a discussion here ...
I, for one, being a devout Egyptologist (above my Tolkien calling) could tell yarns about the Ancient Egyptian beliefs for years upon years. First of all, to understand the Egyptian creation stories, one has to look at the particular dynasty and their super-imposed beliefs that were in existance at the time. Basically the same themes are carried throughout, but, there do arise some major differences (i.e. Memphis priests attempting to raise Ptah above the Heliopolitan Re-Atum in the hierarchy).
The primary myth that I present to you is known as the "Heliopolitan theology":
Atum, the first god (who until just recently was purely identified with Re) stepped forth from the primeval Ocean known as Nun. The most popular belief is that Atum was the product of self-creation - not the byproduct of those ancient waters. Atum created a mound in the immense body of Nun . Atum then dispelled the darkness by creating light (which found its source in the sun). He took the form of a heron (or the bennu - Egyptian nomenclature). and alighted upon the mound (or Benben). Atum was believed to have been hermaphroditic. Seeking companionship, he spat forth (and here I don't mean saliva, if you catch my drift ) to beget Shu (male persona with dominion over the air). Atum then produced Tefnut (with dominion over water) whom he proceeded to vomit forth. Shu and Tefnet produced Geb (an earth god) and Nut (a sky goddess). At this point, we now have what most scholars have defined as the cosmic deities. Geb and Nut went on to produce the common Egyptian deities that we are most familiar with - Osiris, Seth, Isis, and Nephthys, Each of these have their own domains of power and influence.
Unlike many other pantheons, the substance of the ancient Egyptian world was actually believed to be physical manifestations of the gods themselves. The earth upon which we walk is Geb's divine back, the sky is the incorporeal body of Shu and the winds that stir therein are the movements of Nut. To sail the Nile or the Sea is to make passage through the body of Tefnut.
But, as stated previously, there are many contradictory versions. This one though happens to be more predominant in the earlier dynastic art, tombs inscriptions, and papyri. Of the cosmologies ... there are three main versions. I will leave it up to the reader to explore them further (even email me if you would like to learn more) as this post is beginning to "novelize". I will leave such postings to Karo6 for fear of stepping on his knowledgeable toes .
Algamesh - LoreMaster of the Ancient Egyptians
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Message 3 of 12 in Discussion
From: Cephas
Sent: 4/14/2002 4:38 AM
This legend of creation comes from the Norse mythology.
(A) The Beginning
Yggdrasill the greatest of trees contains the nine worlds of Norse legends. They were Asgard (home of the Gods), Vanaheim(land of the Vanir), Alfheim(land of the light elves), Midgard(home of men), Nidavellir(land of the dwarfs), Svartalfheim(land of dark elves), Jotunheim (land of the giants), Niflheim (land of the dead) and Muspell (land of fire).
Amidst "burning ice, biting flame", life began. The southern realm (called Muspell) was filled with flames, the northern realm (called Niflheim) was covered with ice. In between these two realms once lay Ginnungagap, a vast emptiness. Water, which entered the void from the spring Hvergelmir from Niflheim, froze on the northern part of Ginnungagap, while the southern remained hot.
A warm drift from Muspell thawed the ice, causing it to form a giant called Ymir. Whilst he slept, he began to sweat, out which sprung the first man and woman(they apparently came from the sweat from his left armpit). Ymir became the ancestor of the frost giants.
As more ice melted, it formed a cow called Audumla. She licked the ice off a man, Buri, the grandfather of Odin, Vili and Ve.
(B) Earth is formed
Odin, Vili and Ve had no love for Ymir or the frosty giants. They killed him, brought his body to Ginnungagap, and made the world from his body. Ymir's flesh was shaped into the Earth, his unbroken bones were moulded into mountains, his teeth, jaws, fragments of broken bones became rocks, boulders and stones. His welter of blood became landlocked lakes and the ocean. The three brothers made the ocean in a ring round the earth. It was so vast and huge that few actually contemplated crossing it. Ymir's skull was raised to become the sky with four dwarfs at each end (they are named East, West, North and South). Embers from Muspell became the sun, moon and stars. They marked out a land (Jotunheim) and gave it to the giants, they fashioned Ymir's eyebrows into Midgard, an enclosure within earth. Interestingly enough, Midgard was also known as 'Middle World'. The first man and woman lived in Midgard. Ymir's brains became the clouds in the heavens.
(C) The Gods
The three brothers built the realm of Asgard, the abode of the Gods. None may enter it except by Bifrost, a flaming rainbow bridge linking it to Midgard. There were 12 gods and goddesses, the oldest and greatest being Odin the Allfather. They were called Aesir, guardians of men and they include Aegir (God of Sea),Balder, Thor (God of Thunder), Freyja (Goddess of fertility), Heimdall (Watchman of the Gods)Loki. Although the legends portrayed Loki as good in the beginning, he progressively turns more evil, eventually causing the death of Balder, sparking off Ragnarok, the twilight of the Gods.
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Message 4 of 12 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 4/16/2002 12:51 PM
In C. S. Lewis's CHRONICLES OF NARNIA the book The Magician's Nephew contains the story of how Aslan, the Great Lion (i.e. The Lion of Judah--unlike Tolkien, Lewis liked allegory as evidenced by the Narnia tales) sings Narnia into existance.
MusicMom
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Message 5 of 12 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/17/2002 6:10 AM
The Dakota or Sioux have multiple creator deities as well. Tate the spirit god controls the seasons and he is the guide for the spirits of the dead. He is the deity with whom the shamans intercede. With the creation there also came Wi or the Sun God he consorted with the South Wind and their offspring was the godess Whope it is she who gave the Sioux the pipe of peace through which they commune with the Great Spirit Wakan Tanka. Wakan Tanka would be the Sioux equivalent of Iluvatar, and as I write this I begin to parallels to the downfall of the Plains Tribes and the downfall of Numenor, perhaps when we reach that point I will share my insight. As with the creation of Ardas gods Wakan Tanka's thoughts became a manifested thought and this creation thought is still going on today. The creation of the universe is continuing as is the creation of the world. Sorry I can't give a more colorful picture of creation, most of my Great Grandfathers Tales were too wordy for a small child to recall and there are several words in Sioux that won't translate. Not many are alive that know how to hand the tales down today and none if any wish to receive them so for the most part although Wakan Tanka's creation continues his memory shall fade.
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
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Message 6 of 12 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameVairë_Daystar
Sent: 4/17/2002 7:34 PM
Interesting how in nearly every case, the gods with whom we mere mortals interact are often second or third generation from the original deities.
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Message 7 of 12 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 4/19/2002 3:21 AM
I did some quick poking around and found the following tidbits about music and creation myth; could not get more detailed information about many of them this go-round, but will try later:
* Mayan priests claimed that all life was sung into being by disincarnate spirits.
*
In the Upanishads (Indian myth/religious literature), the world was sung into being.
*
In the stories of the Kalevala, an epic myth of Finland, the world was sung into being by the master singer, Vainamoinen. Song plays a key role: if there is any change to be made, any duel to be fought, task to be done, there is singing. For example:
...Vainamoinen began his task. It was work he loved and he sang as he sawed and planed and hammered, songs of strength and swiftness. The boat grew as a song grows, each part of it was a word or phrase, each in a place. As an unlucky or misplaced word spoils a song, in the same way the boat would be marred.
In another story from Kalevala, a young man challenges Vainamoinen to a duel; Vainamoinen nearly kills him through song. The young man is spared at the last moment when he promises to introduce Vainamoinen to his sister (!). (Things don't turn out so well for the sister, but that's another part of the story.)
*
Bragi was a Scandinavian god of new life, of the reincarnation of nature and man. He is called "the divine singer" without spot or blemish. He is represented as gliding in the ship of the Dwarfs of Death during the death of nature, lying asleep on the deck with his golden stringed harp near him and dreaming the dream of life. When the vessel crosses the threshold of Nain, the Dwarf of Death, Bragi awakes and sweeping the strings of his harp, sings a song that echoes over all the Worlds, a song describing the rapture of existence, and awakens dumb, sleeping nature out of her long death-like sleep.
* From The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin: "Australian aboriginal creation myths tell of the legendary totemic beings who had wandered over the continent in the Dreamtime, singing out the name of everything that crossed their path-- birds, animals, plants, rocks, waterhold--and so singing the world into existence."
Aborigines maintain the ‘walkabout’ of those ancestor spirits, singing and following the sacred pathways, called songlines, that crisscross the Australian outback. Chatwin says, "What makes Aboriginal song so hard to appreciate is the endless accumulation of detail...The [song] would have named each waterhole the Lizard Man drank from, each tree he cut a spear from, each cave he slept in, covering the whole long distance of the way."
In this excerpt, Chatwin relates a campfire discussion about songlines and aboriginal "songmen":
"We lit a hurricane lamp and sat on a couple of camping-chairs away from the fire. What we had witnessed, he said, was not of course the real Lizard song, but a 'false front', or sketch performed for strangers. The real song would have named each waterhole the Lizard Man drank from, each tree he cut a spear from, each cave he slept in, covering the whole long distance of the way.
"The distance from here to Port Augusta, as the crow flew, was roughly 1,100 miles, about twice the distance--so we calculated--from Troy to Ithaca. We tried to imagine an Odyssey with a verse for every twist and turn of the hero's ten-year voyage.
"Most tribes, Arkady went on, spoke the language of their immediate neighbour, so the difficulties of communication across a frontier did not exist. The mystery was how a man of Tribe A, living up one end of a Songline, could hear a few bars sung by Tribe Q and, without knowing a word of Q's language, would know exactly what land was being sung.
" 'Christ' I said. 'Are you telling me that Old Alan here would know the songs for a country a thousand miles away?'
" 'Most likely.'
" 'Without ever having been there?'
" 'Supposing we found, somewhere near Port Augusta, a songman who knew the Lizard song? Suppose we got him to sing his verses into a tape-recorder and then played the tape to Alan in Kaititj country? The chances were he'd recognize the melody at once--just as we would the 'Moonlight' Sonata--but the meaning of the words would escape him. All the same, he'd listen very attentively to the melodic structure. He'd perhaps even ask us to replay a few bars. Then, suddenly, he'd find himself in sync and be able to sing his own words over the nonsense.'
"Regardless of the words, it seems the melodic contour of the song describes the nature of the land over which the song passes. So, if the Lizard Man were dragging his heels across the saltpans of Lake Eyre, you could expect a succession of long flats, like Chopin's 'Funeral March'. If he were skipping up and down the MacDonnell escarpments, you'd have a series of arpeggios and glissandos, like Liszt's 'Hungarian Rhapsodies'.
"Certain phrases, certain combinations of musical notes, are thought to describe the action of the Ancestor's feet. Once phrase would say, 'salt-pan'; another 'creek-bed', 'spinifex, sandhill, mulga scrub, rockface and so forth. An expert songman, by listening to their order of succession, would count how many times his hero crossed a river, or scaled a ridge--and be able to calculate where, and how far along a songline he was.
" 'He'd be able,' said Arkady, 'to hear a few bars and say, 'This is Middle Bore' or 'That is Oodnaddat'--where the Ancestor did X or Y or Z.'
" 'So a musical phrase,' I said, 'is a map reference?'
" 'Music,' said Arkady, 'is a memory bank for finding ones' way about the world.' "
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Message 8 of 12 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 4/19/2002 1:45 PM
Fantastically GOOD post, Olorie! Do you have the Mayan source available? "The Songlines," by Bruce Chatwin sounds great - gasp, now I gotta get another book...
THANKS!!
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Message 9 of 12 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:28 PM
"Are there other examples of creation through music?"
By gosh, you betcha! There's Om (Aum, Ohm), the "hum" or vibration of the universe from which all is created. In astronomy, the superstring theory suggests throughout the universe subatomic particles group into strings whose vibrational patterns orchestrate the evolution of the cosmos. In some Eastern religions, there are practices to enhance your ability to 'hear' (an inner hearing) this vibration.
So Hindus call it Om.
In the Gospel of John, it's called The Word ('logo' in...Greek[?])
Newton (?) called it the Music of the Spheres.
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Message 10 of 12 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:47 AM
Do you have the Mayan source available?
Karo6, I think now that what I initially found was bogus. It came from an article in Salon, and after looking further into Mayan creation myth, it seems the author was misinformed. No singing was involved, just thinking. This is an excerpt from Popul Vuh: The Mayan Book of the Dawn of Life, by Dennis Tedlock (translator):
Here is the story of the beginning,
when there was not one bird,
not one fish,
not one mountain.
Here is the sky, all alone.
Here is the sea, all alone.
There is nothing more
–no sound, no movement.
Only the sky and the sea.
Only Heart-of-Sky, alone.
And these are his names:
Maker and Modeler,
Kukulkan,
and Hurricane.
But there is no one to speak his names.
There is no one to praise his glory.
There is no one to nurture his greatness.
And so Heart-of-Sky thinks,
"Who is there to speak my name?
Who is there to praise me?
How shall I make it dawn?"
Heart-of-Sky only says the word,
"Earth,"
and the earth rises,
like a mist from the sea.
He only thinks of it,
and there it is.
He thinks of mountains,
and great mountains come.
He thinks of trees,
and trees grow on the land.
And so Heart-of-Sky says,
"Our work is going well."
Now Heart-of-Sky plans the creatures of the forest
-birds, deer, jaguars and snakes.
And each is given his home.
"You the deer, sleep here along the rivers.
You the birds, your nests are in the trees.
Multiply and scatter," he tells them.
Then Heart-of-Sky says to the animals,
"Speak, pray to us."
But the creatures can only squawk.
The creatures only howl.
They do not speak like humans.
They do not praise Heart-of-Sky
And so the animals are humbled.
They will serve those who will worship Heart-of-Sky.
And Heart-of-Sky tries again.
Tries to make a giver of respect.
Tries to make a giver of praise.
Here is the new creation,
made of mud and earth.
It doesn't look very good.
It keeps crumbing and softening.
It looks lopsided and twisted.
It only speaks nonsense.
It cannot multiply.
So Heart-of-Sky lets it dissolved away.
Now Heart-of-Sky plans again.
Our Grandfather and Our Grandmother are summoned.
They are the most wise spirits.
"Determine if we should carve people from wood,"
commands Heart-of-Sky.
They run their hands over the kernels of corn.
They run their hands over the coral seeds.
"What can we make that will speak and pray?
asks Our Grandfather.
What can we make that will nurture and provide?"
asks Our Grandmother.
They count the days,
the lots of four,
seeking an answer for Heart-of-Sky.
Now they give the answer,
"It is good to make your people with wood.
They will speak your name.
They will walk about and multiply."
"So it is," replies Heart-of-Sky.
And as the words are spoken, it is done.
The doll-people are made
with faces carved from wood.
But they have no blood, no sweat.
They have nothing in their minds.
They have no respect for Heart-of-Sky.
They are just walking about,
But they accomplish nothing.
"This is not what I had in mind,"
says Heart-of-Sky.
And so it is decided to destroy
these wooden people.
Hurricane makes a great rain.
It rains all day and rains all night.
There is a terrible flood
and the earth is blackened.
The creatures of the forest
come into the homes of the doll-people.
"You have chased us from our homes
so now we will take yours,"
they growl.
And their dogs and turkeys cry out,
"You have abused us
so now we shall eat you!"
Even their pots and grinding stones speak,
"We will burn you and pound on you
just as you have done to us!"
The wooden people scatter into the forest.
Their faces are crushed,
and they are turned into monkeys.
And this is why monkeys look like humans.
They are what is left of what came before,
an experiment in human design.
The spirits try again, and form humans from maize. This time, they are satisfied.
Next post, India.
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Message 11 of 12 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:55 AM
This is a really lovely hymn from the Rig Veda, the 4,000-year-old Hindu sacred text, Ralph T.H. Griffith, translator (1896). I love the way it combines weaving and vocal harmony in its creation story.
HYMN CXXX. Creation.
1 THE sacrifice drawn out with threads on every side, stretched by a hundred sacred ministers and one,
This do these Fathers weave who hitherward are come: they sit beside the warp and cry, Weave forth, weave back.
2 The Man extends it and the Man unbinds it: even to this vault of heaven hath he outspun, it.
These pegs are fastened to the seat of worship: they made the Sama-hymns their weaving shuttles.
3 What were the rule, the order and the model? What were the wooden fender and the butter?
What were the hymn, the chant, the recitation, when to the God all Deities paid worship?
4 Closely was Gayatri conjoined with Agni, and closely Savitar combined with Usnih.
Brilliant with Ukthas, Soma joined Anustup: Brhaspati's voice by Brhati was aided.
5 Viraj adhered to Varuna and Mitra: here Tristup day by day was Indra's portion.
Jagati entered all the Gods together: so by this knowledge men were raised to Rsis.
6 So by this knowledge men were raised to Rsis, when ancient sacrifice sprang up, our Fathers.
With the mind's eye I think that I behold them who first performed this sacrificial worship.
7 They who were versed in ritual and metre, in hymns and rules, were the Seven Godlike Rsis.
Viewing the path of those of old, the sages have taken up the reins like chariot-drivers.
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Message 12 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/21/2002 9:35 PM
Awesome research! Thank you Olorie!!
I'm curious to know more about the creation myth from Finland, since that is one that Tolkien would have studied. And you mentioned "Nain, the Dwarf of Death." Tolkien had a dwarf named Nain... Wasn't Dain the son of Nain?
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Recommend Message 1 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1 (Original Message) Sent: 4/13/2002 9:02 PM
Creation Myths
It’s tempting to start analyzing the music, and the “themes” presented by Iluvatar, looking for connections between the descriptions of the music and the creation that is to come. But I suspect that if we do that we will inevitably end up discussing events which are yet to come in the book. So in the effort to avoid spoilers let’s save the discussion of the meaning of the themes until we are on our second trip through the book.
Instead, I’d be interested to hear about other creation stories that people know – both those of various cultures and religions, and those of other fantasy worlds. Are there other examples of creation through music? How about the three stage creation – music, vision, and then reality? Think of creation stories you have known, and compare and contrast them with Tolkien’s.
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Message 2 of 12 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/13/2002 10:48 PM
megn1,
You have really opened up quite a discussion here ...
I, for one, being a devout Egyptologist (above my Tolkien calling) could tell yarns about the Ancient Egyptian beliefs for years upon years. First of all, to understand the Egyptian creation stories, one has to look at the particular dynasty and their super-imposed beliefs that were in existance at the time. Basically the same themes are carried throughout, but, there do arise some major differences (i.e. Memphis priests attempting to raise Ptah above the Heliopolitan Re-Atum in the hierarchy).
The primary myth that I present to you is known as the "Heliopolitan theology":
Atum, the first god (who until just recently was purely identified with Re) stepped forth from the primeval Ocean known as Nun. The most popular belief is that Atum was the product of self-creation - not the byproduct of those ancient waters. Atum created a mound in the immense body of Nun . Atum then dispelled the darkness by creating light (which found its source in the sun). He took the form of a heron (or the bennu - Egyptian nomenclature). and alighted upon the mound (or Benben). Atum was believed to have been hermaphroditic. Seeking companionship, he spat forth (and here I don't mean saliva, if you catch my drift ) to beget Shu (male persona with dominion over the air). Atum then produced Tefnut (with dominion over water) whom he proceeded to vomit forth. Shu and Tefnet produced Geb (an earth god) and Nut (a sky goddess). At this point, we now have what most scholars have defined as the cosmic deities. Geb and Nut went on to produce the common Egyptian deities that we are most familiar with - Osiris, Seth, Isis, and Nephthys, Each of these have their own domains of power and influence.
Unlike many other pantheons, the substance of the ancient Egyptian world was actually believed to be physical manifestations of the gods themselves. The earth upon which we walk is Geb's divine back, the sky is the incorporeal body of Shu and the winds that stir therein are the movements of Nut. To sail the Nile or the Sea is to make passage through the body of Tefnut.
But, as stated previously, there are many contradictory versions. This one though happens to be more predominant in the earlier dynastic art, tombs inscriptions, and papyri. Of the cosmologies ... there are three main versions. I will leave it up to the reader to explore them further (even email me if you would like to learn more) as this post is beginning to "novelize". I will leave such postings to Karo6 for fear of stepping on his knowledgeable toes .
Algamesh - LoreMaster of the Ancient Egyptians
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Message 3 of 12 in Discussion
From: Cephas
Sent: 4/14/2002 4:38 AM
This legend of creation comes from the Norse mythology.
(A) The Beginning
Yggdrasill the greatest of trees contains the nine worlds of Norse legends. They were Asgard (home of the Gods), Vanaheim(land of the Vanir), Alfheim(land of the light elves), Midgard(home of men), Nidavellir(land of the dwarfs), Svartalfheim(land of dark elves), Jotunheim (land of the giants), Niflheim (land of the dead) and Muspell (land of fire).
Amidst "burning ice, biting flame", life began. The southern realm (called Muspell) was filled with flames, the northern realm (called Niflheim) was covered with ice. In between these two realms once lay Ginnungagap, a vast emptiness. Water, which entered the void from the spring Hvergelmir from Niflheim, froze on the northern part of Ginnungagap, while the southern remained hot.
A warm drift from Muspell thawed the ice, causing it to form a giant called Ymir. Whilst he slept, he began to sweat, out which sprung the first man and woman(they apparently came from the sweat from his left armpit). Ymir became the ancestor of the frost giants.
As more ice melted, it formed a cow called Audumla. She licked the ice off a man, Buri, the grandfather of Odin, Vili and Ve.
(B) Earth is formed
Odin, Vili and Ve had no love for Ymir or the frosty giants. They killed him, brought his body to Ginnungagap, and made the world from his body. Ymir's flesh was shaped into the Earth, his unbroken bones were moulded into mountains, his teeth, jaws, fragments of broken bones became rocks, boulders and stones. His welter of blood became landlocked lakes and the ocean. The three brothers made the ocean in a ring round the earth. It was so vast and huge that few actually contemplated crossing it. Ymir's skull was raised to become the sky with four dwarfs at each end (they are named East, West, North and South). Embers from Muspell became the sun, moon and stars. They marked out a land (Jotunheim) and gave it to the giants, they fashioned Ymir's eyebrows into Midgard, an enclosure within earth. Interestingly enough, Midgard was also known as 'Middle World'. The first man and woman lived in Midgard. Ymir's brains became the clouds in the heavens.
(C) The Gods
The three brothers built the realm of Asgard, the abode of the Gods. None may enter it except by Bifrost, a flaming rainbow bridge linking it to Midgard. There were 12 gods and goddesses, the oldest and greatest being Odin the Allfather. They were called Aesir, guardians of men and they include Aegir (God of Sea),Balder, Thor (God of Thunder), Freyja (Goddess of fertility), Heimdall (Watchman of the Gods)Loki. Although the legends portrayed Loki as good in the beginning, he progressively turns more evil, eventually causing the death of Balder, sparking off Ragnarok, the twilight of the Gods.
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Message 4 of 12 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 4/16/2002 12:51 PM
In C. S. Lewis's CHRONICLES OF NARNIA the book The Magician's Nephew contains the story of how Aslan, the Great Lion (i.e. The Lion of Judah--unlike Tolkien, Lewis liked allegory as evidenced by the Narnia tales) sings Narnia into existance.
MusicMom
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Message 5 of 12 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/17/2002 6:10 AM
The Dakota or Sioux have multiple creator deities as well. Tate the spirit god controls the seasons and he is the guide for the spirits of the dead. He is the deity with whom the shamans intercede. With the creation there also came Wi or the Sun God he consorted with the South Wind and their offspring was the godess Whope it is she who gave the Sioux the pipe of peace through which they commune with the Great Spirit Wakan Tanka. Wakan Tanka would be the Sioux equivalent of Iluvatar, and as I write this I begin to parallels to the downfall of the Plains Tribes and the downfall of Numenor, perhaps when we reach that point I will share my insight. As with the creation of Ardas gods Wakan Tanka's thoughts became a manifested thought and this creation thought is still going on today. The creation of the universe is continuing as is the creation of the world. Sorry I can't give a more colorful picture of creation, most of my Great Grandfathers Tales were too wordy for a small child to recall and there are several words in Sioux that won't translate. Not many are alive that know how to hand the tales down today and none if any wish to receive them so for the most part although Wakan Tanka's creation continues his memory shall fade.
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
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Message 6 of 12 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameVairë_Daystar
Sent: 4/17/2002 7:34 PM
Interesting how in nearly every case, the gods with whom we mere mortals interact are often second or third generation from the original deities.
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Message 7 of 12 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 4/19/2002 3:21 AM
I did some quick poking around and found the following tidbits about music and creation myth; could not get more detailed information about many of them this go-round, but will try later:
* Mayan priests claimed that all life was sung into being by disincarnate spirits.
*
In the Upanishads (Indian myth/religious literature), the world was sung into being.
*
In the stories of the Kalevala, an epic myth of Finland, the world was sung into being by the master singer, Vainamoinen. Song plays a key role: if there is any change to be made, any duel to be fought, task to be done, there is singing. For example:
...Vainamoinen began his task. It was work he loved and he sang as he sawed and planed and hammered, songs of strength and swiftness. The boat grew as a song grows, each part of it was a word or phrase, each in a place. As an unlucky or misplaced word spoils a song, in the same way the boat would be marred.
In another story from Kalevala, a young man challenges Vainamoinen to a duel; Vainamoinen nearly kills him through song. The young man is spared at the last moment when he promises to introduce Vainamoinen to his sister (!). (Things don't turn out so well for the sister, but that's another part of the story.)
*
Bragi was a Scandinavian god of new life, of the reincarnation of nature and man. He is called "the divine singer" without spot or blemish. He is represented as gliding in the ship of the Dwarfs of Death during the death of nature, lying asleep on the deck with his golden stringed harp near him and dreaming the dream of life. When the vessel crosses the threshold of Nain, the Dwarf of Death, Bragi awakes and sweeping the strings of his harp, sings a song that echoes over all the Worlds, a song describing the rapture of existence, and awakens dumb, sleeping nature out of her long death-like sleep.
* From The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin: "Australian aboriginal creation myths tell of the legendary totemic beings who had wandered over the continent in the Dreamtime, singing out the name of everything that crossed their path-- birds, animals, plants, rocks, waterhold--and so singing the world into existence."
Aborigines maintain the ‘walkabout’ of those ancestor spirits, singing and following the sacred pathways, called songlines, that crisscross the Australian outback. Chatwin says, "What makes Aboriginal song so hard to appreciate is the endless accumulation of detail...The [song] would have named each waterhole the Lizard Man drank from, each tree he cut a spear from, each cave he slept in, covering the whole long distance of the way."
In this excerpt, Chatwin relates a campfire discussion about songlines and aboriginal "songmen":
"We lit a hurricane lamp and sat on a couple of camping-chairs away from the fire. What we had witnessed, he said, was not of course the real Lizard song, but a 'false front', or sketch performed for strangers. The real song would have named each waterhole the Lizard Man drank from, each tree he cut a spear from, each cave he slept in, covering the whole long distance of the way.
"The distance from here to Port Augusta, as the crow flew, was roughly 1,100 miles, about twice the distance--so we calculated--from Troy to Ithaca. We tried to imagine an Odyssey with a verse for every twist and turn of the hero's ten-year voyage.
"Most tribes, Arkady went on, spoke the language of their immediate neighbour, so the difficulties of communication across a frontier did not exist. The mystery was how a man of Tribe A, living up one end of a Songline, could hear a few bars sung by Tribe Q and, without knowing a word of Q's language, would know exactly what land was being sung.
" 'Christ' I said. 'Are you telling me that Old Alan here would know the songs for a country a thousand miles away?'
" 'Most likely.'
" 'Without ever having been there?'
" 'Supposing we found, somewhere near Port Augusta, a songman who knew the Lizard song? Suppose we got him to sing his verses into a tape-recorder and then played the tape to Alan in Kaititj country? The chances were he'd recognize the melody at once--just as we would the 'Moonlight' Sonata--but the meaning of the words would escape him. All the same, he'd listen very attentively to the melodic structure. He'd perhaps even ask us to replay a few bars. Then, suddenly, he'd find himself in sync and be able to sing his own words over the nonsense.'
"Regardless of the words, it seems the melodic contour of the song describes the nature of the land over which the song passes. So, if the Lizard Man were dragging his heels across the saltpans of Lake Eyre, you could expect a succession of long flats, like Chopin's 'Funeral March'. If he were skipping up and down the MacDonnell escarpments, you'd have a series of arpeggios and glissandos, like Liszt's 'Hungarian Rhapsodies'.
"Certain phrases, certain combinations of musical notes, are thought to describe the action of the Ancestor's feet. Once phrase would say, 'salt-pan'; another 'creek-bed', 'spinifex, sandhill, mulga scrub, rockface and so forth. An expert songman, by listening to their order of succession, would count how many times his hero crossed a river, or scaled a ridge--and be able to calculate where, and how far along a songline he was.
" 'He'd be able,' said Arkady, 'to hear a few bars and say, 'This is Middle Bore' or 'That is Oodnaddat'--where the Ancestor did X or Y or Z.'
" 'So a musical phrase,' I said, 'is a map reference?'
" 'Music,' said Arkady, 'is a memory bank for finding ones' way about the world.' "
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Message 8 of 12 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 4/19/2002 1:45 PM
Fantastically GOOD post, Olorie! Do you have the Mayan source available? "The Songlines," by Bruce Chatwin sounds great - gasp, now I gotta get another book...
THANKS!!
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Message 9 of 12 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:28 PM
"Are there other examples of creation through music?"
By gosh, you betcha! There's Om (Aum, Ohm), the "hum" or vibration of the universe from which all is created. In astronomy, the superstring theory suggests throughout the universe subatomic particles group into strings whose vibrational patterns orchestrate the evolution of the cosmos. In some Eastern religions, there are practices to enhance your ability to 'hear' (an inner hearing) this vibration.
So Hindus call it Om.
In the Gospel of John, it's called The Word ('logo' in...Greek[?])
Newton (?) called it the Music of the Spheres.
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Message 10 of 12 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:47 AM
Do you have the Mayan source available?
Karo6, I think now that what I initially found was bogus. It came from an article in Salon, and after looking further into Mayan creation myth, it seems the author was misinformed. No singing was involved, just thinking. This is an excerpt from Popul Vuh: The Mayan Book of the Dawn of Life, by Dennis Tedlock (translator):
Here is the story of the beginning,
when there was not one bird,
not one fish,
not one mountain.
Here is the sky, all alone.
Here is the sea, all alone.
There is nothing more
–no sound, no movement.
Only the sky and the sea.
Only Heart-of-Sky, alone.
And these are his names:
Maker and Modeler,
Kukulkan,
and Hurricane.
But there is no one to speak his names.
There is no one to praise his glory.
There is no one to nurture his greatness.
And so Heart-of-Sky thinks,
"Who is there to speak my name?
Who is there to praise me?
How shall I make it dawn?"
Heart-of-Sky only says the word,
"Earth,"
and the earth rises,
like a mist from the sea.
He only thinks of it,
and there it is.
He thinks of mountains,
and great mountains come.
He thinks of trees,
and trees grow on the land.
And so Heart-of-Sky says,
"Our work is going well."
Now Heart-of-Sky plans the creatures of the forest
-birds, deer, jaguars and snakes.
And each is given his home.
"You the deer, sleep here along the rivers.
You the birds, your nests are in the trees.
Multiply and scatter," he tells them.
Then Heart-of-Sky says to the animals,
"Speak, pray to us."
But the creatures can only squawk.
The creatures only howl.
They do not speak like humans.
They do not praise Heart-of-Sky
And so the animals are humbled.
They will serve those who will worship Heart-of-Sky.
And Heart-of-Sky tries again.
Tries to make a giver of respect.
Tries to make a giver of praise.
Here is the new creation,
made of mud and earth.
It doesn't look very good.
It keeps crumbing and softening.
It looks lopsided and twisted.
It only speaks nonsense.
It cannot multiply.
So Heart-of-Sky lets it dissolved away.
Now Heart-of-Sky plans again.
Our Grandfather and Our Grandmother are summoned.
They are the most wise spirits.
"Determine if we should carve people from wood,"
commands Heart-of-Sky.
They run their hands over the kernels of corn.
They run their hands over the coral seeds.
"What can we make that will speak and pray?
asks Our Grandfather.
What can we make that will nurture and provide?"
asks Our Grandmother.
They count the days,
the lots of four,
seeking an answer for Heart-of-Sky.
Now they give the answer,
"It is good to make your people with wood.
They will speak your name.
They will walk about and multiply."
"So it is," replies Heart-of-Sky.
And as the words are spoken, it is done.
The doll-people are made
with faces carved from wood.
But they have no blood, no sweat.
They have nothing in their minds.
They have no respect for Heart-of-Sky.
They are just walking about,
But they accomplish nothing.
"This is not what I had in mind,"
says Heart-of-Sky.
And so it is decided to destroy
these wooden people.
Hurricane makes a great rain.
It rains all day and rains all night.
There is a terrible flood
and the earth is blackened.
The creatures of the forest
come into the homes of the doll-people.
"You have chased us from our homes
so now we will take yours,"
they growl.
And their dogs and turkeys cry out,
"You have abused us
so now we shall eat you!"
Even their pots and grinding stones speak,
"We will burn you and pound on you
just as you have done to us!"
The wooden people scatter into the forest.
Their faces are crushed,
and they are turned into monkeys.
And this is why monkeys look like humans.
They are what is left of what came before,
an experiment in human design.
The spirits try again, and form humans from maize. This time, they are satisfied.
Next post, India.
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Message 11 of 12 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:55 AM
This is a really lovely hymn from the Rig Veda, the 4,000-year-old Hindu sacred text, Ralph T.H. Griffith, translator (1896). I love the way it combines weaving and vocal harmony in its creation story.
HYMN CXXX. Creation.
1 THE sacrifice drawn out with threads on every side, stretched by a hundred sacred ministers and one,
This do these Fathers weave who hitherward are come: they sit beside the warp and cry, Weave forth, weave back.
2 The Man extends it and the Man unbinds it: even to this vault of heaven hath he outspun, it.
These pegs are fastened to the seat of worship: they made the Sama-hymns their weaving shuttles.
3 What were the rule, the order and the model? What were the wooden fender and the butter?
What were the hymn, the chant, the recitation, when to the God all Deities paid worship?
4 Closely was Gayatri conjoined with Agni, and closely Savitar combined with Usnih.
Brilliant with Ukthas, Soma joined Anustup: Brhaspati's voice by Brhati was aided.
5 Viraj adhered to Varuna and Mitra: here Tristup day by day was Indra's portion.
Jagati entered all the Gods together: so by this knowledge men were raised to Rsis.
6 So by this knowledge men were raised to Rsis, when ancient sacrifice sprang up, our Fathers.
With the mind's eye I think that I behold them who first performed this sacrificial worship.
7 They who were versed in ritual and metre, in hymns and rules, were the Seven Godlike Rsis.
Viewing the path of those of old, the sages have taken up the reins like chariot-drivers.
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Message 12 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/21/2002 9:35 PM
Awesome research! Thank you Olorie!!
I'm curious to know more about the creation myth from Finland, since that is one that Tolkien would have studied. And you mentioned "Nain, the Dwarf of Death." Tolkien had a dwarf named Nain... Wasn't Dain the son of Nain?