Post by Andorinha on Jan 16, 2009 16:57:22 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE: Numenoreans
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Message 1 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom (Original Message)
Sent: 3/3/2002 10:07 PM
The subject "In the beginning" seems to have gotten a little unweildy and I couldn't figure out which message I should reply to with this observation, so I'll start a new thread.
A couple of weeks ago I ran across the word "numen" in a context outside LOTR and looked it up. My dictionary defines is as "a spiritual force or influence often identified with a natural object, phenomenon, or place" and gives as part of its etymology a word that suggests "divine will." The fact that in LOTR people with "Numenorean" blood were considered superior to other men suggests to me that the Numenoreans may have been somehow related to some order of beings in Valinor. I have not yet started Silmarillion (waiting until after Shippey) but am curious if this is the case. It seems that rebellion resulted in their destruction but traces of their race seem to have survived--e.g. in Aragorn and Faramir. Am I on the right track? (I know, I should read the book first--but your discussion interests me I want to jump ahead in my knowledge. )
MusicMom
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Message 2 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/3/2002 10:43 PM
MusicMom
Numen = numinous = "of the spirit" is latin. Tolkien knew latin well, but prided himself on making up his own languages and his own vocabulary. So while he may have had the latin term "numen" floating around in the back of his head as an influencing factor, it is such a well-know term in religious studies that if he used it a a "loan-word" all the other linguists he hung around with would have made fun of him for "borrowing / stealing" a common latin word rather than coming up with his own.
In Quenya, "numen" = the direction "west," plain and simple. the "or" ending in Quenya = "place of," "land of," so Numenor just means "Westlands" and was applied to the island of Atalante as the westernmost of the mortals lands of Middle Earth.
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Message 3 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/4/2002 12:46 AM
MusicMom:
There are so many different ways to interpret the material of the "myths" that Tolkien uses, and they are so richly crafted that they often permit several valid interpretations at once -- but I do not think he meant to show a direct connection between the Numenoreans and the lineage of the Valar. The people of Numenor were exalted and "glorified" AFTER the "War of the Jewels" (Silmarils) and rewarded with a "safe" dwelling place right "next door" to the Undying Lands. But of all the thousands of humans who lived there only a few of these Atani were related to the Elves. The Royalty, and the Nobles of Numenor would probably have some ancestry traceable to Elros, and through Elros a lineage that included Beren and Luthien. Luthien, as the daughter of the Maia Melian, would herself be half Eldaran Elf and half Maiar. Melian was of course one of the lesser Ainur -- but I think that this is as close a connection as is ever stated between Numenorean Humans and the Valar.
There may be some other "spiritual" connection if you look at the fact that Humans are considered to be part of the "Children of Iluvatar" and are accorded a special relationship with the "Powers" (Valar) and have a special "destiny" after their deaths that involves some direct action/ connection with Eru?
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Message 4 of 18 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/4/2002 1:28 PM
In Quenya, "numen" = the direction "west," plain and simple.
In denotation, this is most assuredly correct; yet, I would be disappointed if this was the total of it "plain and simple." Throughout all of Tolkien, does not "west" connote the direction of salvation, of the "undying lands," of the good as opposed to the evil of the east? While on the literal level, Numenorean obviously means "people from the west," does not the name suggest power, goodness, greatness, etc.? It just seems as though the name carries a suggestion, implication or connotation of something more than just the plain and simple direction.
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Message 5 of 18 in Discussion
From: Celebriel
Sent: 3/4/2002 4:50 PM
I would certainly agree with you, Bill. Aman itself was The West, the promised land. Numenor (and it's physical location) was highly symbolic of the closeness the High Numenoreans shared with the Elves and the Valar.
IMHO
-Lute
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Message 6 of 18 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/4/2002 6:25 PM
Even in Shippey, it was stated that Tolkiern knew, that even though English readers had no linguistic or philological background, they themselves could decern that "this name must be from up north" or "that name must be from the west part of the country".
Somewhere, burried deep within our Jungian psyches, words, and the sounds of words, reflect a collective consciousness that gives them more than 'simplistic meanings', but layers of meanings. I think this is why the Valaquenta suceeds on a higher level than just a creationist mythos. We are able to 'decern' a higher, deeper meaning, that only subjective thought like unto the themes of music can really come closest to the true meaning of the words.
Glor.
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Message 7 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/4/2002 10:11 PM
Karo, I got the impression in ROTK that the people of Gondor (or at least some of them including Aragorn and Faramir) had Numenorean blood and this made them superior to the Rohirrim. Does that mean that the Rohirrim don't fall into the catagory of "children of Illuvatar?" If not, why not? They seem to be human. If so, what makes Numenorean blood superior? Or did I get the wrong impression? (As you can see, I really need to read and understand the Silmarillion!)
MusicMom
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Message 8 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/4/2002 10:21 PM
Bill, am I remembering correctly that the people of Rohan originally came from the North? Would that indicate that the Numenoreans were superior because they came from the West? I still think there must have been some kind of significant difference between the two races that gives an indication why the blood of Numenoreans seems to give some kind of superior attributes. I'm puzzled. (BTW in using the term "superior" I don't necessarily mean "of greater worth" but more of greater ability or talent in certain areas. In our egalitarian society is has become a perjorative to indicate that some people can be superior in any way to others. )
MusicMom
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Message 9 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/5/2002 2:16 AM
Hmmmm. This requires careful wording, "MusicGrandMom" (congratulations!), and involves RoTK material as much as the Silmarillion. The terms Edain and Atani are synonyms, both "in the speech of Iluvatar" mean "Men" (humankind, both sexes!). As both Humans and Elves were conceived directly by the thought of Iluvatar, both "races" are his children. But here, keep in mind that even Bill Ferny, Grima Wormtongue, and all the Hobbits (even Gollum!) qualify as both Atani and "Children of Iluvatar."
The Eldaran Elves put a more restricted meaning upon the terms Atani and Edain - for them these words referred to those "Men" descended from "The Three Houses of the Elf Friends" who aided the Elves in their "War of the Jewels" against Morgoth. From my understanding of the Silmarillion, the ancestral group led by "Hador the Goldenhaired" were the probable forbearers of many later groups, including the Rohirrim. So the Rohirrim, the folk of Numenor, and later those who made up most of the population base of Gondor would all be Atani, both in the general sense as "Men who were the Children of Iluvatar" and even in the more restricted sense as descendants of the "Elf Friends."
Those of the Atani who went to dwell in Numenor, were gradually changed from the early stock of general mankind to become the "High Men," the Men of Westernese. These Atani who moved into the West, and lived for most of the Second Age on the island of Atalante (The Downfallen) were "ennobled" in form, length of life, discernment, intelligence, wisdom etc., etc. by the simple fact that they were in close proximity to the Uttermost West, and conformed most closely of all the Atani to the spirit of the "Good" Valar. (Conformed in spirit with the Valar until the very end when they fell under the shadow of their own pride, and most of them were then easily corrupted by Sauron.)
Before this sojourn in Numenor, I imagine the ancestral Rohirrim, and the ancestral Numenoreans and later the Gondorans would all have been very much equals except for the "Half-Elven" individuals who were in a sense already "ennobled" by their Eldaran and Maiar bloodlines.
Those of the Atani who stayed in Middle Earth and did not go through the gradual "ennoblement" of the Numenoreans remained "Men of the Middle." The direct ancestors of the Rohirrim stayed in Middle Earth throughout the Second Age, living up in the north on the plains near Mirkwood, and so never became "High Men" like the Numenoreans.
In the Third Age, the People of Gondor were a mixed lot of "High" and "Middle" Men - with very few of the Gondor folk being actual Numenoreans, even at the founding of the Kingdoms in Exile by Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion (only 7 ships remember - unless they were "gargantuan" vessels there would not be much room for a great host!). The small leadership elite of the two kingdoms -- later the noble houses including the various Royal lines of Arnor and Gondor, the House of the Ruling Stewards, and other "High" lines such as the House of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, and the Dunedain of the North, like Halbarad -- were the only ones left with a fairly pure Numenorean bloodline. (A few Black, Renegade Numenoreans were also sprinkled throughout Middle Earth as "King's Men," those who still adhered to the evil of Ar Pharazon, or were remnants from the period of Numenor's conquest and colonization period.)
In the year 2510 - Third Age, when the "Middle Men" of the Rohirrim entered the Kingdom of Gondor and won the largely deserted province of Calenardhon from the invading Orcs and Easterlings, they were basically of the same status, "Middle Men," as most of the population of Gondor. Over the next 500+ years of the Third Age, down to the "Great Years" of the Ring Quest, the amount of "High" Numenorean blood in Gondor continued to wane so that by the time Frodo trekked through Ithilien, very few were left who could claim "High" status relative to the Rohirrim, their kinfolk from the First Age.
Hmmm very late here - I'll just hope this makes sense and wait for Bill Fuller to set me right if I've gone off track! Hi Bill, nice to be working you and all the old/ new gangs!
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Message 10 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/5/2002 2:41 AM
Glorfindle - this is IMPORTANT stuff you bring up here! It requires deeper investigation and further treatment both as a category of linguistics, and as a way of getting inside Tolkien's own mind and thought processes!
There is a great deal of argument concerning this particular point of your's: "Somewhere, burried deep within our Jungian psyches, words, and the sounds of words, reflect a collective consciousness that gives them more than 'simplistic meanings', but layers of meanings."
Most modern linguists would reject this notion out of hand, citing linguistic relativism -- but for our purposes, the letters of Tolkien and Carpenter's biography make it quite plane that Tolkien did himself believe there were innate sounds that struck direct and cooresponding chords in the human psyche - hence words that even if met with for the first time, they would automatically be received as grand and wonderful terms (Valinor, Minas Anor, Ithil, Telumechtar) - or alternatively the pronunciations would provoke revulsion (Grishnakh, Nazgul, Gorbag, Morgul).
Good stuff from everyone here!›
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Message 11 of 18 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 3/17/2002 10:20 AM
Glor and Karo6...
While not having read either Letters or Carpenter (both sitting in the pile beside my bed), and having only an intro linguistics class to my credit, I have to agree with the point made in your posts....
"words, and the sounds of words, reflect a collective consciousness that gives them more than 'simplistic meanings', but layers of meanings."
"the letters of Tolkien and Carpenter's biography make it quite plane that Tolkien did himself believe there were innate sounds that struck direct and cooresponding chords in the human psyche - "
Before reading these comments, this is something I hadn't given much thought to, rather simply experienced the intended response invoked by specific words. However, having spent some time considering your comments and examples, I feel the proverbial veil has been lifted from my eyes and the reason JR deliberated/agonized over each word he chose becomes clearer to me.
Soleil
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Message 12 of 18 in Discussion
From: JTrace
Sent: 3/17/2002 10:48 AM
Would you agree or disagree that music, unique to each person, can and often does touch the "soul, / inner being, / midbrain, / special place in one's heart and mind, / the human psyche" that can be near the collective consciousness that provides layers of meaning to the person? And I suppose can stir the emotions for good or evil. Also hearing certain music awakens memories especially of a positive nature of good times, happy times, times of great joy. Maybe the negative reminders are not there because I turn off the music and do not listen. Anyway, it's fun to speculate on the creative powers of our human race. JTrace
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Message 13 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/17/2002 3:59 PM
JTrace, How could I not agree! Music in the language of emotions and great music will touch your innermost being. The term "music of the spheres" comes from the idea of the universal power of music to communicate beyond words. This is one reason why I find so attractive the idea, used both by Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, of the creation of the world as "singing into being."
MusicMom
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Message 14 of 18 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/17/2002 4:52 PM
The bass- like crash of the surf, the tiny rat-a-tat of the rain(like a drum's high hat) , the chords of the wind mingling and expanding with moans and soprano-like whistles, the rythmn guitar of the leaves rustling in the trees, --could this be the type of music the Varlar sang? What better allegory of thought and action could there be?
As Tolkien probably knew, language and writing, is a small part of man's history compared to his actual existance. Many scholars argue that early homo-sapiens had increased Shamanic senses, being not yet so evolved from animal evolution. Before language, the 'tone' of a word or even a grunt like word, would convey meaning to another undeveloped human.
Yet, as we understand Tolkien to be a devout Catholic, he was probably also a creationist. How like him then, to give humanity a more noble beginning, as children of Illuvitar. As enobling as this is, I still find many very evolutionist themes in his mythos.
I am not sure where I am going with these thoughts, but the neo-pagan in me is crossing with my Catholic upbringing, and causing a stir. As has always been my own belief, I take neither the creationist or evolutionist stance, but prefer a combination of the two, mixed with a modicum of esoteric Fall-der-all, LOL.
How strange it is that Tolkiens' mythos satisfies both of my inner struggles with something that 'SOUNDS' just right!
Namarie!
Glor
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Message 15 of 18 in Discussion
From: JTrace
Sent: 3/17/2002 5:17 PM
Wow! Glor, what elegant descriptive verse! And who was Varlar and what does Namarie mean? JTrace
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Message 16 of 18 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/17/2002 3:53 PM
Sorry for the late reply. Varlar is a mis-spelling of Valar, which you probably know by now are the Ainur who went to Arda. Namarie is Elvish for farewell.
Glor
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Message 17 of 18 in Discussion
From: Eleandune
Sent: 4/21/2002 3:25 PM
Many scholars argue that early homo-sapiens had increased Shamanic senses, being not yet so evolved from animal evolution. Before language, the 'tone' of a word or even a grunt like word, would convey meaning to another undeveloped human.
I definately agree about the importance of tone, Glor, but I don't think that it was only important to prelingual cultures - I mean, even today, tone of voice can be everything in a sentence (consider "Will you please take out the garbage?" vs. "Will you please take out the garbage?") Sound of words is important too - I guess that's why we automatically like words such as Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, etc. whereas Barad-dur, Morgoth, and Sauron have a bad taste to them.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Tolkien's emphasis on tone was probably not linked to ideas of prehistoric man or evolution, since it's every bit as important and present in our world. You don't really need animal-sharp senses to react to the tone and the sound of a word.
Eleandune
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Message 18 of 18 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/22/2002 8:59 AM
As far as the tone and sound of a word goes, my belief has always been that this varies from culture to culture,and different language groups have different impressions of what words sound ugly or beautiful. Tolkien was very attuned to the sound of words, but I the choices of the languages he liked and found beautiful, and the ones he didn't like the sound of, was both culture-based and idiosyncratic. This is probably why his language-use was so brilliant.
Somewhere online I saw a double-barrelled quote that I loved. First it said in Latin, "Anything you say in Latin sounds profound." Then in Quenya it said, "Anything you say in Elvish sounds beautiful." I'd love to find this again.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 1 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom (Original Message)
Sent: 3/3/2002 10:07 PM
The subject "In the beginning" seems to have gotten a little unweildy and I couldn't figure out which message I should reply to with this observation, so I'll start a new thread.
A couple of weeks ago I ran across the word "numen" in a context outside LOTR and looked it up. My dictionary defines is as "a spiritual force or influence often identified with a natural object, phenomenon, or place" and gives as part of its etymology a word that suggests "divine will." The fact that in LOTR people with "Numenorean" blood were considered superior to other men suggests to me that the Numenoreans may have been somehow related to some order of beings in Valinor. I have not yet started Silmarillion (waiting until after Shippey) but am curious if this is the case. It seems that rebellion resulted in their destruction but traces of their race seem to have survived--e.g. in Aragorn and Faramir. Am I on the right track? (I know, I should read the book first--but your discussion interests me I want to jump ahead in my knowledge. )
MusicMom
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Message 2 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/3/2002 10:43 PM
MusicMom
Numen = numinous = "of the spirit" is latin. Tolkien knew latin well, but prided himself on making up his own languages and his own vocabulary. So while he may have had the latin term "numen" floating around in the back of his head as an influencing factor, it is such a well-know term in religious studies that if he used it a a "loan-word" all the other linguists he hung around with would have made fun of him for "borrowing / stealing" a common latin word rather than coming up with his own.
In Quenya, "numen" = the direction "west," plain and simple. the "or" ending in Quenya = "place of," "land of," so Numenor just means "Westlands" and was applied to the island of Atalante as the westernmost of the mortals lands of Middle Earth.
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Message 3 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/4/2002 12:46 AM
MusicMom:
There are so many different ways to interpret the material of the "myths" that Tolkien uses, and they are so richly crafted that they often permit several valid interpretations at once -- but I do not think he meant to show a direct connection between the Numenoreans and the lineage of the Valar. The people of Numenor were exalted and "glorified" AFTER the "War of the Jewels" (Silmarils) and rewarded with a "safe" dwelling place right "next door" to the Undying Lands. But of all the thousands of humans who lived there only a few of these Atani were related to the Elves. The Royalty, and the Nobles of Numenor would probably have some ancestry traceable to Elros, and through Elros a lineage that included Beren and Luthien. Luthien, as the daughter of the Maia Melian, would herself be half Eldaran Elf and half Maiar. Melian was of course one of the lesser Ainur -- but I think that this is as close a connection as is ever stated between Numenorean Humans and the Valar.
There may be some other "spiritual" connection if you look at the fact that Humans are considered to be part of the "Children of Iluvatar" and are accorded a special relationship with the "Powers" (Valar) and have a special "destiny" after their deaths that involves some direct action/ connection with Eru?
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Message 4 of 18 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/4/2002 1:28 PM
In Quenya, "numen" = the direction "west," plain and simple.
In denotation, this is most assuredly correct; yet, I would be disappointed if this was the total of it "plain and simple." Throughout all of Tolkien, does not "west" connote the direction of salvation, of the "undying lands," of the good as opposed to the evil of the east? While on the literal level, Numenorean obviously means "people from the west," does not the name suggest power, goodness, greatness, etc.? It just seems as though the name carries a suggestion, implication or connotation of something more than just the plain and simple direction.
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Message 5 of 18 in Discussion
From: Celebriel
Sent: 3/4/2002 4:50 PM
I would certainly agree with you, Bill. Aman itself was The West, the promised land. Numenor (and it's physical location) was highly symbolic of the closeness the High Numenoreans shared with the Elves and the Valar.
IMHO
-Lute
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Message 6 of 18 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/4/2002 6:25 PM
Even in Shippey, it was stated that Tolkiern knew, that even though English readers had no linguistic or philological background, they themselves could decern that "this name must be from up north" or "that name must be from the west part of the country".
Somewhere, burried deep within our Jungian psyches, words, and the sounds of words, reflect a collective consciousness that gives them more than 'simplistic meanings', but layers of meanings. I think this is why the Valaquenta suceeds on a higher level than just a creationist mythos. We are able to 'decern' a higher, deeper meaning, that only subjective thought like unto the themes of music can really come closest to the true meaning of the words.
Glor.
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Message 7 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/4/2002 10:11 PM
Karo, I got the impression in ROTK that the people of Gondor (or at least some of them including Aragorn and Faramir) had Numenorean blood and this made them superior to the Rohirrim. Does that mean that the Rohirrim don't fall into the catagory of "children of Illuvatar?" If not, why not? They seem to be human. If so, what makes Numenorean blood superior? Or did I get the wrong impression? (As you can see, I really need to read and understand the Silmarillion!)
MusicMom
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Message 8 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/4/2002 10:21 PM
Bill, am I remembering correctly that the people of Rohan originally came from the North? Would that indicate that the Numenoreans were superior because they came from the West? I still think there must have been some kind of significant difference between the two races that gives an indication why the blood of Numenoreans seems to give some kind of superior attributes. I'm puzzled. (BTW in using the term "superior" I don't necessarily mean "of greater worth" but more of greater ability or talent in certain areas. In our egalitarian society is has become a perjorative to indicate that some people can be superior in any way to others. )
MusicMom
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Message 9 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/5/2002 2:16 AM
Hmmmm. This requires careful wording, "MusicGrandMom" (congratulations!), and involves RoTK material as much as the Silmarillion. The terms Edain and Atani are synonyms, both "in the speech of Iluvatar" mean "Men" (humankind, both sexes!). As both Humans and Elves were conceived directly by the thought of Iluvatar, both "races" are his children. But here, keep in mind that even Bill Ferny, Grima Wormtongue, and all the Hobbits (even Gollum!) qualify as both Atani and "Children of Iluvatar."
The Eldaran Elves put a more restricted meaning upon the terms Atani and Edain - for them these words referred to those "Men" descended from "The Three Houses of the Elf Friends" who aided the Elves in their "War of the Jewels" against Morgoth. From my understanding of the Silmarillion, the ancestral group led by "Hador the Goldenhaired" were the probable forbearers of many later groups, including the Rohirrim. So the Rohirrim, the folk of Numenor, and later those who made up most of the population base of Gondor would all be Atani, both in the general sense as "Men who were the Children of Iluvatar" and even in the more restricted sense as descendants of the "Elf Friends."
Those of the Atani who went to dwell in Numenor, were gradually changed from the early stock of general mankind to become the "High Men," the Men of Westernese. These Atani who moved into the West, and lived for most of the Second Age on the island of Atalante (The Downfallen) were "ennobled" in form, length of life, discernment, intelligence, wisdom etc., etc. by the simple fact that they were in close proximity to the Uttermost West, and conformed most closely of all the Atani to the spirit of the "Good" Valar. (Conformed in spirit with the Valar until the very end when they fell under the shadow of their own pride, and most of them were then easily corrupted by Sauron.)
Before this sojourn in Numenor, I imagine the ancestral Rohirrim, and the ancestral Numenoreans and later the Gondorans would all have been very much equals except for the "Half-Elven" individuals who were in a sense already "ennobled" by their Eldaran and Maiar bloodlines.
Those of the Atani who stayed in Middle Earth and did not go through the gradual "ennoblement" of the Numenoreans remained "Men of the Middle." The direct ancestors of the Rohirrim stayed in Middle Earth throughout the Second Age, living up in the north on the plains near Mirkwood, and so never became "High Men" like the Numenoreans.
In the Third Age, the People of Gondor were a mixed lot of "High" and "Middle" Men - with very few of the Gondor folk being actual Numenoreans, even at the founding of the Kingdoms in Exile by Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion (only 7 ships remember - unless they were "gargantuan" vessels there would not be much room for a great host!). The small leadership elite of the two kingdoms -- later the noble houses including the various Royal lines of Arnor and Gondor, the House of the Ruling Stewards, and other "High" lines such as the House of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, and the Dunedain of the North, like Halbarad -- were the only ones left with a fairly pure Numenorean bloodline. (A few Black, Renegade Numenoreans were also sprinkled throughout Middle Earth as "King's Men," those who still adhered to the evil of Ar Pharazon, or were remnants from the period of Numenor's conquest and colonization period.)
In the year 2510 - Third Age, when the "Middle Men" of the Rohirrim entered the Kingdom of Gondor and won the largely deserted province of Calenardhon from the invading Orcs and Easterlings, they were basically of the same status, "Middle Men," as most of the population of Gondor. Over the next 500+ years of the Third Age, down to the "Great Years" of the Ring Quest, the amount of "High" Numenorean blood in Gondor continued to wane so that by the time Frodo trekked through Ithilien, very few were left who could claim "High" status relative to the Rohirrim, their kinfolk from the First Age.
Hmmm very late here - I'll just hope this makes sense and wait for Bill Fuller to set me right if I've gone off track! Hi Bill, nice to be working you and all the old/ new gangs!
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Message 10 of 18 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/5/2002 2:41 AM
Glorfindle - this is IMPORTANT stuff you bring up here! It requires deeper investigation and further treatment both as a category of linguistics, and as a way of getting inside Tolkien's own mind and thought processes!
There is a great deal of argument concerning this particular point of your's: "Somewhere, burried deep within our Jungian psyches, words, and the sounds of words, reflect a collective consciousness that gives them more than 'simplistic meanings', but layers of meanings."
Most modern linguists would reject this notion out of hand, citing linguistic relativism -- but for our purposes, the letters of Tolkien and Carpenter's biography make it quite plane that Tolkien did himself believe there were innate sounds that struck direct and cooresponding chords in the human psyche - hence words that even if met with for the first time, they would automatically be received as grand and wonderful terms (Valinor, Minas Anor, Ithil, Telumechtar) - or alternatively the pronunciations would provoke revulsion (Grishnakh, Nazgul, Gorbag, Morgul).
Good stuff from everyone here!›
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Message 11 of 18 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 3/17/2002 10:20 AM
Glor and Karo6...
While not having read either Letters or Carpenter (both sitting in the pile beside my bed), and having only an intro linguistics class to my credit, I have to agree with the point made in your posts....
"words, and the sounds of words, reflect a collective consciousness that gives them more than 'simplistic meanings', but layers of meanings."
"the letters of Tolkien and Carpenter's biography make it quite plane that Tolkien did himself believe there were innate sounds that struck direct and cooresponding chords in the human psyche - "
Before reading these comments, this is something I hadn't given much thought to, rather simply experienced the intended response invoked by specific words. However, having spent some time considering your comments and examples, I feel the proverbial veil has been lifted from my eyes and the reason JR deliberated/agonized over each word he chose becomes clearer to me.
Soleil
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Message 12 of 18 in Discussion
From: JTrace
Sent: 3/17/2002 10:48 AM
Would you agree or disagree that music, unique to each person, can and often does touch the "soul, / inner being, / midbrain, / special place in one's heart and mind, / the human psyche" that can be near the collective consciousness that provides layers of meaning to the person? And I suppose can stir the emotions for good or evil. Also hearing certain music awakens memories especially of a positive nature of good times, happy times, times of great joy. Maybe the negative reminders are not there because I turn off the music and do not listen. Anyway, it's fun to speculate on the creative powers of our human race. JTrace
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Message 13 of 18 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/17/2002 3:59 PM
JTrace, How could I not agree! Music in the language of emotions and great music will touch your innermost being. The term "music of the spheres" comes from the idea of the universal power of music to communicate beyond words. This is one reason why I find so attractive the idea, used both by Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, of the creation of the world as "singing into being."
MusicMom
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Message 14 of 18 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/17/2002 4:52 PM
The bass- like crash of the surf, the tiny rat-a-tat of the rain(like a drum's high hat) , the chords of the wind mingling and expanding with moans and soprano-like whistles, the rythmn guitar of the leaves rustling in the trees, --could this be the type of music the Varlar sang? What better allegory of thought and action could there be?
As Tolkien probably knew, language and writing, is a small part of man's history compared to his actual existance. Many scholars argue that early homo-sapiens had increased Shamanic senses, being not yet so evolved from animal evolution. Before language, the 'tone' of a word or even a grunt like word, would convey meaning to another undeveloped human.
Yet, as we understand Tolkien to be a devout Catholic, he was probably also a creationist. How like him then, to give humanity a more noble beginning, as children of Illuvitar. As enobling as this is, I still find many very evolutionist themes in his mythos.
I am not sure where I am going with these thoughts, but the neo-pagan in me is crossing with my Catholic upbringing, and causing a stir. As has always been my own belief, I take neither the creationist or evolutionist stance, but prefer a combination of the two, mixed with a modicum of esoteric Fall-der-all, LOL.
How strange it is that Tolkiens' mythos satisfies both of my inner struggles with something that 'SOUNDS' just right!
Namarie!
Glor
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Message 15 of 18 in Discussion
From: JTrace
Sent: 3/17/2002 5:17 PM
Wow! Glor, what elegant descriptive verse! And who was Varlar and what does Namarie mean? JTrace
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Message 16 of 18 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/17/2002 3:53 PM
Sorry for the late reply. Varlar is a mis-spelling of Valar, which you probably know by now are the Ainur who went to Arda. Namarie is Elvish for farewell.
Glor
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Message 17 of 18 in Discussion
From: Eleandune
Sent: 4/21/2002 3:25 PM
Many scholars argue that early homo-sapiens had increased Shamanic senses, being not yet so evolved from animal evolution. Before language, the 'tone' of a word or even a grunt like word, would convey meaning to another undeveloped human.
I definately agree about the importance of tone, Glor, but I don't think that it was only important to prelingual cultures - I mean, even today, tone of voice can be everything in a sentence (consider "Will you please take out the garbage?" vs. "Will you please take out the garbage?") Sound of words is important too - I guess that's why we automatically like words such as Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, etc. whereas Barad-dur, Morgoth, and Sauron have a bad taste to them.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Tolkien's emphasis on tone was probably not linked to ideas of prehistoric man or evolution, since it's every bit as important and present in our world. You don't really need animal-sharp senses to react to the tone and the sound of a word.
Eleandune
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Message 18 of 18 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/22/2002 8:59 AM
As far as the tone and sound of a word goes, my belief has always been that this varies from culture to culture,and different language groups have different impressions of what words sound ugly or beautiful. Tolkien was very attuned to the sound of words, but I the choices of the languages he liked and found beautiful, and the ones he didn't like the sound of, was both culture-based and idiosyncratic. This is probably why his language-use was so brilliant.
Somewhere online I saw a double-barrelled quote that I loved. First it said in Latin, "Anything you say in Latin sounds profound." Then in Quenya it said, "Anything you say in Elvish sounds beautiful." I'd love to find this again.
namaste,
Azurite