Post by Andorinha on Jan 16, 2009 23:50:13 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE: Feanor and Melkor
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: heb864
Sent: 4/23/2002 11:50 AM
As I read the Sil, I found similarities between these two characters.
Melkor, in a way, the first and, at least initially, favorite "son" of Iluvatar, was given all of the gifts to make him potentially the greatest of the Valar. However, like many an over-spoiled child of privilege who never had to work to achieve his "wealth", Melkor could not appreciate. He wanted everything HIS way, would shape Arda to HIS liking, would be denied nothing, because he so believed in his own greatness. And, like a spoiled child who sees another with something he does not or cannot possess, he would rather destroy and despoil.
Feanor was the first and admittedly favorite son of Finwe; "of all whom he loved Feanor had ever the chief share of his thought". After the "death" of his mother Miriel, Feanor was the center of Finwe's life and love. Feanor was a skilled craftsman (unlike Melkor, he did learn and work hard to create those things he was long remembered for), and he had the potential to become the greatest among the Noldor. However, as a spoiled child, he would not accept his father's marriage to Indis, nor would he fully accept his half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin. Also, Feanor was solitary, much like Melkor; "For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only ... and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman". And not to give away any of the coming tale, Feanor will cling to that what he considered his own with a terrible tenacity.
The fact that the fates of Melkor and Feanor become so intertwined later in the story will probably surprise no one.
Hilary
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/23/2002 12:00 PM
Fascinating connection!
Interesting, too, that the two hated each other so completely - they became rivals with each other.
(That happens in the first chapter of the reading for this Sunday, so I don't think I'm giving away to much...)
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 4/23/2002 1:45 PM
Very interesting and, I believe accurrate analysis. As I recall there is a psychological theory that says that if you really dislike a person, the characteristics of that person that you will hate the most are those attributes that you, subconsciously, recognize as part of your own personality.
Another thing that strikes me about evil, in both the LOTR and SIL, is that its sources are often very banal charater flaws -- jealousy, pride, lust after power and selfishness appear to be the sources of a much of the evil that befalls ME.
Karen
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire
Sent: 4/23/2002 5:48 PM
i never thought of the similarities before.
but is dosn't surprise me.
there is a Hindu saying "Love and hate make funny bed partners"
the "good guys" and the "bad guys" in any story are often very alike. in some stories they were once brothers or best friends. (ex... X-Men....Star Wars...any other worth while story.....)
my ha-penny
-Oiolaire
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/23/2002 7:39 PM
Ah, but is Feanor really "good"?
He is certainly not evil, like Melkor. He is capable of greating things of great beauty, whereas Melkor can only mar and destroy. But Feanor is not a simple "good guy," nor is he a "hero."
Which raises a question: Who is the hero of Silmarillion?
(Ducking, running out of the room, dodging the things being thrown at me...)
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: heb864
Sent: 4/24/2002 6:56 AM
I would have a hard time defining Feanor as "good', except perhaps as compared to Melkor.
I think, starting next week, we can really pick Feanor apart.
Hilary
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 7:40 AM
I wouldn't call Feanor good either, but I find him fascinating. I don't think being 'good' is a necessary attribute for a hero, and Feanor has the stature of a hero, if not the character.
Of course, two evil characters can oppose each other, and I think a case can be made that Tolkien postulated that the root of all evil was pride. He certainly uses it as the characteristic that initiates trouble.
namaste,
Azurite
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:31 AM
Heb,
Nice contrast and comparison! Feanor was neither good nor bad Feanor percieved himself as wronged.Who amongst any of us has not been wronged or at least percieved that we were and failed to see the reason or issues leading up to it. When it comes to honor or losing face many of us will choose an aggressive path and therefore negate logic or conviction in favor of this rage. Does that make us less good? The human psyche that Tolkien delivered in this part of the Tales was akin to Tolstoys "The Death of Ivan Ilych". In Tolstys tale Ivan became enraged by the fact that others around him were going about their lives and yet he was doomed to die. Ivan never accepted a world around him without himself. With Feanor we see some of the same sort of concepts his father Finwe re-mates and moves on. Feanor although Finwe's heir to the throne of the Noldor, feels angry and threatened by his half brothers, I don't think he ever fully accepted the fact that his father had a life and needs just as he. I think Feanor saw himself as the center of his own universe and there was nothing without him and fell into the trap of pride, as Melkor did and has been expressed eloquently by Heb already. More to the point, within my circle of Middle earth Fellowship members, sometimes we say one/another person has a fiery spirit, this is considered an insult of intense portend and not to be taken lightly. One must always consider outcomes before actions,. a flaw with both Melkor and Feanor.
Namarie Eldameldor,
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 9:05 AM
I think this is one of the greatest strengths of Feanor as a character - his reactions mayhave been strong and his deeds were often evil in their outcome, but his grievances had a strong basis and one can understand his feelings. His father was murdered - a classic case for crying out for vengeance, where would Hamlet be without it?
I find it interesting that Feanor's existence effectively ended his mother's life, as if he took her spiritual life-essence when he was born. I'm not sure exactly what Tolkien was saying with that, but it's an omen of coming tragedy, and can't be ascribed to deliberate evil.
namaste,
Azurite
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/25/2002 6:25 AM
Iarwain states:
"Feanor although Finwe's heir to the throne of the Noldor, feels angry and threatened by his half brothers, I don't think he ever fully accepted the fact that his father had a life and needs just as he. I think Feanor saw himself as the center of his own universe and there was nothing without him and fell into the trap of pride, as Melkor did and has been expressed eloquently by Heb already."
Finwë encouraged Fëanor in this belief that he was the center of his own universe by spoiling him and doting on him. After Míriel died in childbirth, and after he grieved for a long time over her, Finwë turned all his love toward Fëanor and spoiled him during all of his formative years!
Even after Finwë took his second wife, Indis, although he loved her very much and was glad that he remarried, he still loved Míriel and remembered her in his heart. Therefore, Fëanor, who was the child of Míriel, had more of Finwë's love than Indis or her sons had.
So I think Finwë may have been guilty of causing Fëanor to fall into that trap of pride.
Stormrider
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/25/2002 1:28 PM
Possible Spoiler don"t know exactly.
I can't allow you people to prattle on about Feanor being a hero. He murdered his kinsmen becaue they wouldn't give him thier prized creations(ships). So he kills them and steals thier pride afterwards he leaves his blood relatives stranded to face a shameful return to Valinor because they don't think he is such a good leader and may have made a mistake. Sure he is crafty and skilled but to call him a Hero is wrong. To call Feanor a hero is to call Melkor a hero they both did the same thing by stealing someone's most prized possesions. At least Melkor had the indecency to lust after the Simarils, Feanor just used the Teleri Ships and then destroyed them. Robbed ME of some of its most beautiful creations for mundane purposes to me it would be like using the Mona Lisa as a small table top to eat dinner from and then tossing it in the trash. Feanor is a solitary man who another solitary individual duped. Melkor played him like a drum. Feanors arrogance is unbelievable he owes all of his talents to the Valar. Sure he may have carried his talents to a magnificent degree but without the knowledge from the Valar he would never have developed his skill to the point of making the Simarils. So in return for the kindness and gift of knowledge that he recieved he betrays and scorns the very peolpe who helped him. Somewherethere is a greek saying about the dangers of living a solitary life and not being part of the community it makes one suspicious and isolated perhaps this is the point Tolkien was trying to get across with Feanor. Feanor had the ability to become a great hero however the actions he took caused misery and heartbreak for his people and relatives which makes for a good story but by no means makes him a hero. IMHO
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: DeadChickenMan
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:34 PM
Rivers:
You are right, Feanor is not a hero. He is the personification of the spirit and energy of the Elves in their youth. Contrast the spirit of Feanor with Elrond at the end of the third age. Some of this is because of the one ring, but most is that they are growing weary of ME. That is their doom. The elves are a fire that burns itself to ash but never dies. Feanor is hot and bright with pride and desire, Elrond and Galadriel are grey with the burdens of long years and the dulling of the world. I think Feanor is a "tragic hero" that we are supposed to like and dislike at the same time. But... most of all he is a symbol of the youth of the Elves. No time will see greater accomplishments by an elf, yet none will see such great mistakes.
DCM
________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/26/2002 7:27 AM
DCM, I like your description of Feanor as representing the youth of the elves. I think he symbolizes more than one thing, and I like the 'tragic hero' designation, though I'm not sure 'tragic anti-hero' isn't equally accurate. He had powerful gifts but poor judgement; his most tragic gift was to be able to draw the Noldor to him and persuade them to follow him. I am reminded of Saruman's ability to shape people's opinions with talk.
For all Feanor did a lot of terrible things, I like it that he brought the elves back to Middle-earth, which is where I prefer to see them.
namaste,
Azurite
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: heb864
Sent: 4/23/2002 11:50 AM
As I read the Sil, I found similarities between these two characters.
Melkor, in a way, the first and, at least initially, favorite "son" of Iluvatar, was given all of the gifts to make him potentially the greatest of the Valar. However, like many an over-spoiled child of privilege who never had to work to achieve his "wealth", Melkor could not appreciate. He wanted everything HIS way, would shape Arda to HIS liking, would be denied nothing, because he so believed in his own greatness. And, like a spoiled child who sees another with something he does not or cannot possess, he would rather destroy and despoil.
Feanor was the first and admittedly favorite son of Finwe; "of all whom he loved Feanor had ever the chief share of his thought". After the "death" of his mother Miriel, Feanor was the center of Finwe's life and love. Feanor was a skilled craftsman (unlike Melkor, he did learn and work hard to create those things he was long remembered for), and he had the potential to become the greatest among the Noldor. However, as a spoiled child, he would not accept his father's marriage to Indis, nor would he fully accept his half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin. Also, Feanor was solitary, much like Melkor; "For Feanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only ... and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman". And not to give away any of the coming tale, Feanor will cling to that what he considered his own with a terrible tenacity.
The fact that the fates of Melkor and Feanor become so intertwined later in the story will probably surprise no one.
Hilary
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/23/2002 12:00 PM
Fascinating connection!
Interesting, too, that the two hated each other so completely - they became rivals with each other.
(That happens in the first chapter of the reading for this Sunday, so I don't think I'm giving away to much...)
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 4/23/2002 1:45 PM
Very interesting and, I believe accurrate analysis. As I recall there is a psychological theory that says that if you really dislike a person, the characteristics of that person that you will hate the most are those attributes that you, subconsciously, recognize as part of your own personality.
Another thing that strikes me about evil, in both the LOTR and SIL, is that its sources are often very banal charater flaws -- jealousy, pride, lust after power and selfishness appear to be the sources of a much of the evil that befalls ME.
Karen
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire
Sent: 4/23/2002 5:48 PM
i never thought of the similarities before.
but is dosn't surprise me.
there is a Hindu saying "Love and hate make funny bed partners"
the "good guys" and the "bad guys" in any story are often very alike. in some stories they were once brothers or best friends. (ex... X-Men....Star Wars...any other worth while story.....)
my ha-penny
-Oiolaire
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/23/2002 7:39 PM
Ah, but is Feanor really "good"?
He is certainly not evil, like Melkor. He is capable of greating things of great beauty, whereas Melkor can only mar and destroy. But Feanor is not a simple "good guy," nor is he a "hero."
Which raises a question: Who is the hero of Silmarillion?
(Ducking, running out of the room, dodging the things being thrown at me...)
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: heb864
Sent: 4/24/2002 6:56 AM
I would have a hard time defining Feanor as "good', except perhaps as compared to Melkor.
I think, starting next week, we can really pick Feanor apart.
Hilary
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 7:40 AM
I wouldn't call Feanor good either, but I find him fascinating. I don't think being 'good' is a necessary attribute for a hero, and Feanor has the stature of a hero, if not the character.
Of course, two evil characters can oppose each other, and I think a case can be made that Tolkien postulated that the root of all evil was pride. He certainly uses it as the characteristic that initiates trouble.
namaste,
Azurite
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:31 AM
Heb,
Nice contrast and comparison! Feanor was neither good nor bad Feanor percieved himself as wronged.Who amongst any of us has not been wronged or at least percieved that we were and failed to see the reason or issues leading up to it. When it comes to honor or losing face many of us will choose an aggressive path and therefore negate logic or conviction in favor of this rage. Does that make us less good? The human psyche that Tolkien delivered in this part of the Tales was akin to Tolstoys "The Death of Ivan Ilych". In Tolstys tale Ivan became enraged by the fact that others around him were going about their lives and yet he was doomed to die. Ivan never accepted a world around him without himself. With Feanor we see some of the same sort of concepts his father Finwe re-mates and moves on. Feanor although Finwe's heir to the throne of the Noldor, feels angry and threatened by his half brothers, I don't think he ever fully accepted the fact that his father had a life and needs just as he. I think Feanor saw himself as the center of his own universe and there was nothing without him and fell into the trap of pride, as Melkor did and has been expressed eloquently by Heb already. More to the point, within my circle of Middle earth Fellowship members, sometimes we say one/another person has a fiery spirit, this is considered an insult of intense portend and not to be taken lightly. One must always consider outcomes before actions,. a flaw with both Melkor and Feanor.
Namarie Eldameldor,
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 9:05 AM
I think this is one of the greatest strengths of Feanor as a character - his reactions mayhave been strong and his deeds were often evil in their outcome, but his grievances had a strong basis and one can understand his feelings. His father was murdered - a classic case for crying out for vengeance, where would Hamlet be without it?
I find it interesting that Feanor's existence effectively ended his mother's life, as if he took her spiritual life-essence when he was born. I'm not sure exactly what Tolkien was saying with that, but it's an omen of coming tragedy, and can't be ascribed to deliberate evil.
namaste,
Azurite
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/25/2002 6:25 AM
Iarwain states:
"Feanor although Finwe's heir to the throne of the Noldor, feels angry and threatened by his half brothers, I don't think he ever fully accepted the fact that his father had a life and needs just as he. I think Feanor saw himself as the center of his own universe and there was nothing without him and fell into the trap of pride, as Melkor did and has been expressed eloquently by Heb already."
Finwë encouraged Fëanor in this belief that he was the center of his own universe by spoiling him and doting on him. After Míriel died in childbirth, and after he grieved for a long time over her, Finwë turned all his love toward Fëanor and spoiled him during all of his formative years!
Even after Finwë took his second wife, Indis, although he loved her very much and was glad that he remarried, he still loved Míriel and remembered her in his heart. Therefore, Fëanor, who was the child of Míriel, had more of Finwë's love than Indis or her sons had.
So I think Finwë may have been guilty of causing Fëanor to fall into that trap of pride.
Stormrider
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/25/2002 1:28 PM
Possible Spoiler don"t know exactly.
I can't allow you people to prattle on about Feanor being a hero. He murdered his kinsmen becaue they wouldn't give him thier prized creations(ships). So he kills them and steals thier pride afterwards he leaves his blood relatives stranded to face a shameful return to Valinor because they don't think he is such a good leader and may have made a mistake. Sure he is crafty and skilled but to call him a Hero is wrong. To call Feanor a hero is to call Melkor a hero they both did the same thing by stealing someone's most prized possesions. At least Melkor had the indecency to lust after the Simarils, Feanor just used the Teleri Ships and then destroyed them. Robbed ME of some of its most beautiful creations for mundane purposes to me it would be like using the Mona Lisa as a small table top to eat dinner from and then tossing it in the trash. Feanor is a solitary man who another solitary individual duped. Melkor played him like a drum. Feanors arrogance is unbelievable he owes all of his talents to the Valar. Sure he may have carried his talents to a magnificent degree but without the knowledge from the Valar he would never have developed his skill to the point of making the Simarils. So in return for the kindness and gift of knowledge that he recieved he betrays and scorns the very peolpe who helped him. Somewherethere is a greek saying about the dangers of living a solitary life and not being part of the community it makes one suspicious and isolated perhaps this is the point Tolkien was trying to get across with Feanor. Feanor had the ability to become a great hero however the actions he took caused misery and heartbreak for his people and relatives which makes for a good story but by no means makes him a hero. IMHO
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: DeadChickenMan
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:34 PM
Rivers:
You are right, Feanor is not a hero. He is the personification of the spirit and energy of the Elves in their youth. Contrast the spirit of Feanor with Elrond at the end of the third age. Some of this is because of the one ring, but most is that they are growing weary of ME. That is their doom. The elves are a fire that burns itself to ash but never dies. Feanor is hot and bright with pride and desire, Elrond and Galadriel are grey with the burdens of long years and the dulling of the world. I think Feanor is a "tragic hero" that we are supposed to like and dislike at the same time. But... most of all he is a symbol of the youth of the Elves. No time will see greater accomplishments by an elf, yet none will see such great mistakes.
DCM
________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/26/2002 7:27 AM
DCM, I like your description of Feanor as representing the youth of the elves. I think he symbolizes more than one thing, and I like the 'tragic hero' designation, though I'm not sure 'tragic anti-hero' isn't equally accurate. He had powerful gifts but poor judgement; his most tragic gift was to be able to draw the Noldor to him and persuade them to follow him. I am reminded of Saruman's ability to shape people's opinions with talk.
For all Feanor did a lot of terrible things, I like it that he brought the elves back to Middle-earth, which is where I prefer to see them.
namaste,
Azurite