Post by MajahTR on Jan 17, 2009 0:13:03 GMT -6
Rereading the Lord of the Rings for the umteenth time, I'm struck by the fact that none of the major characters have a living mother (many are, in fact, orphans).
I wonder if Tolkien's own loss of his parents at a young age is echoed again and again in his characters. Let's look closely:
Frodo: orphaned at age 12
Sam: Gaffer, but no mother mentioned (that I recall)
Merry and Pippin: patronimics are given, no mothers mentioned
Aragorn: lost father at age 2; mother deceased by start of LotR
Legolas: father King Thranduil, mother not mentioned
Gimli: father Gloin, mother never mentioned
Boromir and Faramir: lost mother at ages 10 and 5 respectively
Eomer and Eowyn: orphans
What do you think?
Hilary
Galadriel is a Mom, whose daughter enjoyed her company, but, her daughter is no longer present in ME. Mrs. Maggot is a Mom. Lobelia SB is a Mom with a different moral sense than typically "good" mothers. Rosie Cotten-Gamgee and Arwen become mothers later. We can infer that Rosie is probably a good mother by how her family turns out. Arwen, however, would rather spend her time alone pining for Aragorn after he dies, than be surrounded by her children and it is difficult for me to judge her favorably because of that. Can we call Goldberry, Galadriel, and Mrs. Maggot mother figures to the Hobbits?
There are a number of caring fathers and father figures. I wonder if this is how WWII affected Tolkien's writing. He had children directly and indirectly affected by the war. He had to be worried about them. The fathers and father figures(Bilbo, Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Denethor Tom Bombadil, Treebeard and maybe others) give advice and protection to their children (the Hobbits) throughout LotR. Even Denethor in the end regrets his treatment of Faramir and in his insanity tries to do what he thinks best.
Or is it Father Morgan who Tolkien based his "Good Dads" on?
DA
Hilary: I think you are indeed "on to something here"! Tolkien really avoids much mention of females in general, and they figure only secondarily in his main narratives -- what is this all about!?
As for hobbit mommies, have you checked the genealogies listed in schematic fashion in the appendices of "The Return of the King"? Here he considers it important to give birth and death dates for daddy hobbits, but leaves us dangling concerning the life status of their mums...
Merry Brandybuck - mother = Esmeralda Took, life status at time of quest - uncertain.
Sam Gamgee - mother = Bell Goodchild, life status at time of quest - uncertain.
Peregrin Took - mother = Eglantine Banks, life status at time of quest - uncertain.
Karo6
awh. i never realized that before. poor fellowship hehe.
i am not sure as to why he does not give a lot of info on their moms, but i do think that the book is indeed a masculine dominated book. i think it would have been better if he had given a bit more about those women
Shelob
Indeed, Shelob, Tolkien does seem to value male heroic traits. His most "prominant" woman in the story, Eowyn does her heroic deed disguised as a man!
In reading Tolkien's biography I got the impression that he put women in a separate catagory--his attitude toward women seemed to be gentlemanly -- even gallant -- at times but they were the "keepers of the home fires" while the men went out into the world to do the work. He spent much time sharinig his work with his male friends and colleagues but did not seem to involve his wife in his work. It was not until he retired -- just a couple of years before his wife's death -- that he made the "sacrifice" to move to a place where his wife wanted to live and could feel comfortable. And yet, you get the impression that he truly loved his wife, so it was not because of indifference to her feelings.
Did anyone else aget this idea from the biography? If this is accurate, it may help us understand the POV of the novel.
MusicMom
A couple of weeks ago, I was watching the TTT trailer special on the 2nd disk of the DVD set. Mirranda Otto talked about her character -- Eowyn trying to "make it" in a man's world. I had this flash of Dorothy Sayers and The Inklings. I don't know much about her and the timeperiod she was around, but I wonder if she influenced Tolkien at all, especially in the Eowyn character. Anybody have any info on the possibility?
JRR and Edith spent more time together it seems, earlier in their courtship and marriage. She was more involved in his writing. I don't have a copy of the Biography but, I do remember that she wrote out some of his writings in a notebook. She was really his Luthien at this point.
Then they became lost to each other because of their different activities. The separation of male and female began. He wrote constantly and not just about ME. There are 1800 pages of notes for his Beowulf translation alone. In her shoes, I would probably resent the time he spent at his desk. And if I were him, I'd spend even more time with those that appreciated my work.
Then Edith became Arwen, sitting at home in the background, waiting for a time when they could be together.
Tolkien wrote a few strong female characters. There's Lobelia SB for one. She is the most memorable Hobbit, except for Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippen. She is a character you can't forget. There's Melian, Luthien and Elwing. Unfinished Tales gives Galadriel even more strength. Erendis of The Mariner's Wife in Unfinished Tales is a woman with very strong convictions. And of course, Eowyn. Even Arwen if you look within Appendix A.
DA
When I said Eowyn was the most prominant woman in the story I was referring to LotR and not including Sil or the Appendix (although I still think Eowyn may be a stronger character than Arwen--as much as i like Arwen, she still comes across as a consort to Aragorn rather than a strong figure in her own right). Lobelia is memorable but not necessarily admirable (either as a woman or a mother)--which was a quality I was thinking of in the context of this thread. It is strange that I would not think of Galadrial when I wrote this post, because she is one of my favorite characters in the trilogy--male or female.
As I ponder this omission I wonder if it is because Galadrial seems to be more of a "presense" than a "woman." She is the wife of Celeborn--but not much is told of their relationship and she seems a much stronger character than he. If she has children, they don figure prominantly in our glimpses of her life because I can't remember them. Since the thread was about "mommies." which is the most "womanly" activity in life (only a woman can be a mommie!) perhaps this is why Galadrial did not occur to me in this context. Eowyn is definitely a woman trying to "find" herself in a male dominated world. Galadrial is Galadrial--and sems to be "master" of her world. This makes her seem apart from (above?) the "conflict" of male vs female, perhaps it is because she is elven--maybe they "got it right."
MusicMom
Tolkien's world is an ancient one. It mirrors our own ancient world, mostly dominated by men, with the occassional famous femme fatale (Cleopatra comes to mind). As our modern world progresses, we see increasing instances of women leaders and women making headlines. Wouldn't modern sensibilities about the role of women in society actually have changed the feel of his ancient world?
I like to think that as the world of men grew into existence in the fourth age, the Rohirrim women would have used the bravery and deeds of Eowyn to promote sufferage and equal billing, etc.
So I put the question out to all of you. Would an equal number of women in LotR, with equal status have helped, hurt, or had no affect on the work?
Glor
I've thought about this, Glor. As a female, I think I related better to the book because there weren't a lot of women. I know that sounds odd, but it's true.
When I try to imagine the book with more female characters, I realize that then gender would become an issue. As it is, the story is almost gender-free, with the exception of Eowyn. If there were more women, there would be comments about them being women, about their role, about their relationships with the men, etc. This way there is none of that. And I am free to imagine myself into any role I want - not just those of the women.
That's my experience. Anyone else want to share?
Megn1
Galadriel and Celeborn did have a daughter. Her name was Celebrian, and she married Elrond. She is the mother of Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir. She was captured by orcs in the Misty mountains. She was rescued, but never fully recovered and finally sailed into the west. So Arwen is mommy-less, too. Another absent woman.
Megn1
I wonder if Tolkien's own loss of his parents at a young age is echoed again and again in his characters. Let's look closely:
Frodo: orphaned at age 12
Sam: Gaffer, but no mother mentioned (that I recall)
Merry and Pippin: patronimics are given, no mothers mentioned
Aragorn: lost father at age 2; mother deceased by start of LotR
Legolas: father King Thranduil, mother not mentioned
Gimli: father Gloin, mother never mentioned
Boromir and Faramir: lost mother at ages 10 and 5 respectively
Eomer and Eowyn: orphans
What do you think?
Hilary
Galadriel is a Mom, whose daughter enjoyed her company, but, her daughter is no longer present in ME. Mrs. Maggot is a Mom. Lobelia SB is a Mom with a different moral sense than typically "good" mothers. Rosie Cotten-Gamgee and Arwen become mothers later. We can infer that Rosie is probably a good mother by how her family turns out. Arwen, however, would rather spend her time alone pining for Aragorn after he dies, than be surrounded by her children and it is difficult for me to judge her favorably because of that. Can we call Goldberry, Galadriel, and Mrs. Maggot mother figures to the Hobbits?
There are a number of caring fathers and father figures. I wonder if this is how WWII affected Tolkien's writing. He had children directly and indirectly affected by the war. He had to be worried about them. The fathers and father figures(Bilbo, Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Denethor Tom Bombadil, Treebeard and maybe others) give advice and protection to their children (the Hobbits) throughout LotR. Even Denethor in the end regrets his treatment of Faramir and in his insanity tries to do what he thinks best.
Or is it Father Morgan who Tolkien based his "Good Dads" on?
DA
Hilary: I think you are indeed "on to something here"! Tolkien really avoids much mention of females in general, and they figure only secondarily in his main narratives -- what is this all about!?
As for hobbit mommies, have you checked the genealogies listed in schematic fashion in the appendices of "The Return of the King"? Here he considers it important to give birth and death dates for daddy hobbits, but leaves us dangling concerning the life status of their mums...
Merry Brandybuck - mother = Esmeralda Took, life status at time of quest - uncertain.
Sam Gamgee - mother = Bell Goodchild, life status at time of quest - uncertain.
Peregrin Took - mother = Eglantine Banks, life status at time of quest - uncertain.
Karo6
awh. i never realized that before. poor fellowship hehe.
i am not sure as to why he does not give a lot of info on their moms, but i do think that the book is indeed a masculine dominated book. i think it would have been better if he had given a bit more about those women
Shelob
Indeed, Shelob, Tolkien does seem to value male heroic traits. His most "prominant" woman in the story, Eowyn does her heroic deed disguised as a man!
In reading Tolkien's biography I got the impression that he put women in a separate catagory--his attitude toward women seemed to be gentlemanly -- even gallant -- at times but they were the "keepers of the home fires" while the men went out into the world to do the work. He spent much time sharinig his work with his male friends and colleagues but did not seem to involve his wife in his work. It was not until he retired -- just a couple of years before his wife's death -- that he made the "sacrifice" to move to a place where his wife wanted to live and could feel comfortable. And yet, you get the impression that he truly loved his wife, so it was not because of indifference to her feelings.
Did anyone else aget this idea from the biography? If this is accurate, it may help us understand the POV of the novel.
MusicMom
A couple of weeks ago, I was watching the TTT trailer special on the 2nd disk of the DVD set. Mirranda Otto talked about her character -- Eowyn trying to "make it" in a man's world. I had this flash of Dorothy Sayers and The Inklings. I don't know much about her and the timeperiod she was around, but I wonder if she influenced Tolkien at all, especially in the Eowyn character. Anybody have any info on the possibility?
JRR and Edith spent more time together it seems, earlier in their courtship and marriage. She was more involved in his writing. I don't have a copy of the Biography but, I do remember that she wrote out some of his writings in a notebook. She was really his Luthien at this point.
Then they became lost to each other because of their different activities. The separation of male and female began. He wrote constantly and not just about ME. There are 1800 pages of notes for his Beowulf translation alone. In her shoes, I would probably resent the time he spent at his desk. And if I were him, I'd spend even more time with those that appreciated my work.
Then Edith became Arwen, sitting at home in the background, waiting for a time when they could be together.
Tolkien wrote a few strong female characters. There's Lobelia SB for one. She is the most memorable Hobbit, except for Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippen. She is a character you can't forget. There's Melian, Luthien and Elwing. Unfinished Tales gives Galadriel even more strength. Erendis of The Mariner's Wife in Unfinished Tales is a woman with very strong convictions. And of course, Eowyn. Even Arwen if you look within Appendix A.
DA
When I said Eowyn was the most prominant woman in the story I was referring to LotR and not including Sil or the Appendix (although I still think Eowyn may be a stronger character than Arwen--as much as i like Arwen, she still comes across as a consort to Aragorn rather than a strong figure in her own right). Lobelia is memorable but not necessarily admirable (either as a woman or a mother)--which was a quality I was thinking of in the context of this thread. It is strange that I would not think of Galadrial when I wrote this post, because she is one of my favorite characters in the trilogy--male or female.
As I ponder this omission I wonder if it is because Galadrial seems to be more of a "presense" than a "woman." She is the wife of Celeborn--but not much is told of their relationship and she seems a much stronger character than he. If she has children, they don figure prominantly in our glimpses of her life because I can't remember them. Since the thread was about "mommies." which is the most "womanly" activity in life (only a woman can be a mommie!) perhaps this is why Galadrial did not occur to me in this context. Eowyn is definitely a woman trying to "find" herself in a male dominated world. Galadrial is Galadrial--and sems to be "master" of her world. This makes her seem apart from (above?) the "conflict" of male vs female, perhaps it is because she is elven--maybe they "got it right."
MusicMom
Tolkien's world is an ancient one. It mirrors our own ancient world, mostly dominated by men, with the occassional famous femme fatale (Cleopatra comes to mind). As our modern world progresses, we see increasing instances of women leaders and women making headlines. Wouldn't modern sensibilities about the role of women in society actually have changed the feel of his ancient world?
I like to think that as the world of men grew into existence in the fourth age, the Rohirrim women would have used the bravery and deeds of Eowyn to promote sufferage and equal billing, etc.
So I put the question out to all of you. Would an equal number of women in LotR, with equal status have helped, hurt, or had no affect on the work?
Glor
I've thought about this, Glor. As a female, I think I related better to the book because there weren't a lot of women. I know that sounds odd, but it's true.
When I try to imagine the book with more female characters, I realize that then gender would become an issue. As it is, the story is almost gender-free, with the exception of Eowyn. If there were more women, there would be comments about them being women, about their role, about their relationships with the men, etc. This way there is none of that. And I am free to imagine myself into any role I want - not just those of the women.
That's my experience. Anyone else want to share?
Megn1
Galadriel and Celeborn did have a daughter. Her name was Celebrian, and she married Elrond. She is the mother of Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir. She was captured by orcs in the Misty mountains. She was rescued, but never fully recovered and finally sailed into the west. So Arwen is mommy-less, too. Another absent woman.
Megn1