Post by Andorinha on Jan 17, 2009 0:18:07 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE: Week three - the role of the Valar
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Message 1 of 5 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/27/2002 6:54 PM
We talked a lot about the Valar, and now we bid them good-bye (for the most part). It seems to me that there has been a dramatic shift in their role. They were active - creating, shaping, planning, inviting. Now they are strangely passive, walling themselves in. Why? Have they changed? Has the world changed? Has their sense of their purpose changed? Or perhaps you see it differently than I do...
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Message 2 of 5 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/27/2002 10:55 PM
Just as the age of Elves gave way to the age of men, so now the Valar gives way to the age of the Eldar. It would be much to large and confusing if Tolkien tried to keep up discussion of all that the Valar were doing, and still have the space to fully discuss what happened after the children of Illuvitar came into being.
Glor
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Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/28/2002 9:40 AM
I agree with Glor it would be too much information to keep up with everything. However I ask myself if it isn't a case of the Valar being distressed over the tragedy of the Noldor. Perhaps they felt in some way responsible for the things that happened because of Melkor's actions. It would be extremely diffucult to allow some beings many of which you love make obvious mistakes which you could correct but cannot because you must allow for free will. Also to be heart broken by the betrayal of loved ones even if misguided they still spurn and falsely accuse you of unkind motives so if you were inclined to stop them from leaving it would only prove thier accusations as true. Finally as a creature that lives forever the sorrow that is inherent in making an ultimatum which lasts forever I couldn't begin to appreciate. Forever burdened to watch your brilliant and lovely friends hurt and die for a mistake made in a past so distant but yet so fresh it boggles the mind.
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Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/28/2002 5:21 PM
In a way, it is similar to the Bible.....God allowed mankind to blunder along on their own and be influenced by evil and to make their own decisions. It is as if the children of Ilúvatar sinned as Adam and Eve did and now they are set free in Arda on their own without interference from the Valar.
Also later, like Jesus is the Christian savior, there is a savior in the Silmarillion; although I don't want to say who I think it is yet because I don't want to spoil anything for those who have not read it completely.
We just can't get away from those religious comparisons, can we?
Stormrider
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Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/28/2002 9:33 PM
My main question about the Valar is their purpose. In the course of reading about Tolkien, I read something that caught my attention. Tolkien wanted to create British mythology because he felt that the U.K. lacked one. A myth is a story that explains how people or things came into the current existence...
It seems to me that the Valar, specifically Melkor, are important in explaining how evil came to be. In Iluvatar, we have the good creator. In our present existence is cruelty, violence, selfishness...In Tolkien's myth Melkor is necessary to explain those realities. The one who played the evil role needed to be a non-human who had powers beyond humans. The Valar also are the workmen of creation. After they fulfill this role, creating the world and the origin of evil, they are not important to the rest of Tolkien's myth. While their role in creation is an enjoyable read, they are not necessary. Iluvatar could have played the creation movement alone.
Tolkien doesn't seem to be too afraid writing long and complicated stories, so I really don't buy that particular line of thinking. Afterall, how many elfish languages did he create?
Stormrider, he does set up his myth with many parallels to what he held as truth. I find it interesting that he is restrained in his myth story to have only one deity. So many other myths have sun gods, love goddesses, etc.He creates the Valar. I continually debate whether he wrote a good myth or not. Oh well, i enjoy a good story.
Wen
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 5 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/27/2002 6:54 PM
We talked a lot about the Valar, and now we bid them good-bye (for the most part). It seems to me that there has been a dramatic shift in their role. They were active - creating, shaping, planning, inviting. Now they are strangely passive, walling themselves in. Why? Have they changed? Has the world changed? Has their sense of their purpose changed? Or perhaps you see it differently than I do...
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 5 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/27/2002 10:55 PM
Just as the age of Elves gave way to the age of men, so now the Valar gives way to the age of the Eldar. It would be much to large and confusing if Tolkien tried to keep up discussion of all that the Valar were doing, and still have the space to fully discuss what happened after the children of Illuvitar came into being.
Glor
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/28/2002 9:40 AM
I agree with Glor it would be too much information to keep up with everything. However I ask myself if it isn't a case of the Valar being distressed over the tragedy of the Noldor. Perhaps they felt in some way responsible for the things that happened because of Melkor's actions. It would be extremely diffucult to allow some beings many of which you love make obvious mistakes which you could correct but cannot because you must allow for free will. Also to be heart broken by the betrayal of loved ones even if misguided they still spurn and falsely accuse you of unkind motives so if you were inclined to stop them from leaving it would only prove thier accusations as true. Finally as a creature that lives forever the sorrow that is inherent in making an ultimatum which lasts forever I couldn't begin to appreciate. Forever burdened to watch your brilliant and lovely friends hurt and die for a mistake made in a past so distant but yet so fresh it boggles the mind.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/28/2002 5:21 PM
In a way, it is similar to the Bible.....God allowed mankind to blunder along on their own and be influenced by evil and to make their own decisions. It is as if the children of Ilúvatar sinned as Adam and Eve did and now they are set free in Arda on their own without interference from the Valar.
Also later, like Jesus is the Christian savior, there is a savior in the Silmarillion; although I don't want to say who I think it is yet because I don't want to spoil anything for those who have not read it completely.
We just can't get away from those religious comparisons, can we?
Stormrider
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/28/2002 9:33 PM
My main question about the Valar is their purpose. In the course of reading about Tolkien, I read something that caught my attention. Tolkien wanted to create British mythology because he felt that the U.K. lacked one. A myth is a story that explains how people or things came into the current existence...
It seems to me that the Valar, specifically Melkor, are important in explaining how evil came to be. In Iluvatar, we have the good creator. In our present existence is cruelty, violence, selfishness...In Tolkien's myth Melkor is necessary to explain those realities. The one who played the evil role needed to be a non-human who had powers beyond humans. The Valar also are the workmen of creation. After they fulfill this role, creating the world and the origin of evil, they are not important to the rest of Tolkien's myth. While their role in creation is an enjoyable read, they are not necessary. Iluvatar could have played the creation movement alone.
Tolkien doesn't seem to be too afraid writing long and complicated stories, so I really don't buy that particular line of thinking. Afterall, how many elfish languages did he create?
Stormrider, he does set up his myth with many parallels to what he held as truth. I find it interesting that he is restrained in his myth story to have only one deity. So many other myths have sun gods, love goddesses, etc.He creates the Valar. I continually debate whether he wrote a good myth or not. Oh well, i enjoy a good story.
Wen