Post by MajahTR on Jan 17, 2009 0:29:09 GMT -6
Illadria will be responsible to post any interventions by the Valar and Illuvatar, along with chapter and general location details. Please feel free to comment on the findings. Also, if you feel that one got missed, please, include it yourself.
DA
I have taken the task of tracking the intervention of Illúvatar and the Valar. A daunting task I fear, fraught with ambiguity for they seldom let their influence be known as such, rather preferring it to be thought coincidence or even fortune (whether good or bad).
Since, by design, evidence of their Interjacence is meant to go unnoticed, I may miss a few (or many) incidences that are obvious to others. Therefore, I gladly welcome any additions to this thread.
Also, if DaleAnn concurs, I invite any debate or questions concerning that which I deem to be Divine Intervention.
Namárië,
Illadria
In Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past, when giving Frodo an account of Gollum's history, Gandalf says of Bilbo's finding the One Ring:
"There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to it's master. It slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Déagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when it's master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!
Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by it's maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought."
Namárïe,
Illadria
In The Shadow of the Past after Frodo came to the decision to leave the Shire, Gandalf said, "...Bilbo made no mistake in chosing his heir, though he little thought how important it would prove."
That is probably true, for Bilbo, though perhaps one of the wizest and most learned of all Hobbits was still only a Hobbit. As Gandalf stated, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." But there is one who can, Illuvatar (see The Silmarillion, Ainulindale)
What might have happened if Frodo had not been Bilbo's heir?
I think Bilbo would still have left the Shire, sooner rather than later without Frodo around, and his estate would have gone to the Sackville-Bagginses. (see A Long-expected Party, Otho demanding to see the will) The ring most likely though, would not have. Bilbo loved it too much and would not have given it up for Otho and Lobellia. (It's best left at that. The very idea of the ring in their hands is too much to even consider at this time.) So the One Ring would have gone east with Bilbo. But what then? No one would have yet guessed the danger, and Bilbo would likely have continued to weaken against the ring's evil.
But that is not what was meant to happen.
I propose that Frodo Baggins was predestined to have the ring; that he was born to be the Ring Bearer.
"...Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by it's maker. In which case you also were meant to have it." (Gandalf, The Shadow of the Past, Gollum's story)
"...you have been chosen..." (Gandalf, The Shadow of the Past, discussing the destruction of the ring)
It was not by mere coincidence that Frodo was born on Bilbo's birthday. Elders tend to show instant fondness (more than the usual) for those bearing their name or born on their birthday. And, as cruel as it may seem, it is likely that the untimely deaths of Drogo and Primula were the design of the Valar, executed specifically by Ulmo. Their death left Frodo an orphan and eventually led to his moving to Bag-End and becoming Bilbo's sole heir.
Because he had freewill, Frodo could have denied his birthright (his destiny), but he did not. He was a righteous Hobbit, just a Illuvatar created him to be.
Namárïe,
Illadria
Stemming from an enlightened discussion at The Pony (Thanks DA and Algy), here are more thoughts on Frodo's predestination as a ring-bearer.
Isildur took the ring from Sauron but would not destroy it, the ring however, having a will of it's own betrayed Isildur by slipping off his finger...right into Ulmo's grasp. ("...no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful..." ~Illúvatar, The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)
In the Aduin, Ulmo kept the ring safely hidden for nearly 2500 years until it was found by Déagol. Likely Déagol was meant to find the ring..."He had a friend called Déagol, of similar sort, sharper-eyed but not so quick and strong." (FOTR, The Shadow of the Past) ...but he was not meant to keep it. Sméagol, being the craftier, would be a much better guardian than Déagol. And the ring did need a new guardian to keep it hidden until Frodo's time. Illúvatar had revealed some of what was to come to the Valar (see The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë), so Ulmo knew that Sauron's servants would learn of Isildur's end and search the area where the ring had lain hidden. This did finally happen in about 2939 TA, almost 500 years after Ulmo had allowed Déagol to find the ring.
Two years later the Valar (likely with help from Illúvatar) set the wheels in motion to lead Bilbo directly to the ring. Sméagol's time as a ringbearer had come to an end, though his complete destiny had not yet been fulfilled.
Why did the ring choose that time to abandon Gollum? It had been content to bide it's time with him for half a century, surely it had not suddenly grown impatient. Did it sense Sauron's growing strength? No. Sauron had not yet returned to Mordor nor to gather his power. He was still in hiding. If the ring had just stayed with Gollum ten years more, it would have then begun it's return to master. But it did'nt wait. And again, though it thought it played it's own theme, it was but an instrument for Illúvatar. For whatever reason, the ring itself decided to leave Gollum, just at the same time that the Valar led Bilbo to the ring. And it did certainly serve the Valar for Gollum to no longer have possesion of the ring, with it he would've have killed and eaten Bilbo (how's that for vile and disgusting?). Often I think about Bilbos escape from Gollum..."And then quite suddenly in another flash, as if lifted by a new strength and resolve, he leapt. No great leap for a man, but a leap in the dark. Straight over Gollum's head he jumped, seven feet forward and three in the air; indeed, had he known it, he only just missed cracking his skull on the low arch of the passage."..."...and Bilbo, falling fair on his sturdy feet, sped off down the new tunnel." (The Hobbit, Riddles in the Dark) Bilbo never really struck me as being particularly athletic, and even if he were, that leap, missing hitting his head, and the perfect landing would still have been some terrific feat. Obviously, he had help.
So Bilbo got the ring.
Sauron returned to Mordor where he began to rebuild his power and soon after to call all evil to himself, including Gollum (now ringless).
But Bilbo returned to the Shire with the ring. Sauron did not yet know anything about the Shire, nor would he have any reason ever to concen himself with it. The ring was now seperated from it's master by a great geological distance, and the Shire, being a land where nobody ever had any adventures, and very few outsiders ever visited, was not a place the ring could easily escape. It had no choice then but to wait and follow it's bearer where he led it.
Namárïe,
Illadria
Great work, Ill. Until now, I thought of Deagol's finding of the ring and Gollum's possession of it as an accident. Of course, it was no accident. That makes sense, now!
Sparrow
Isildur took the ring from Sauron but would not destroy it, the ring however, having a will of it's own betrayed Isildur by slipping off his finger...right into Ulmo's grasp. ("...no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful..." ~Illúvatar, The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)
Wow! This statement really blows me away! I never thought of this before! What better safe place to hide the Ring from Sauron but with one of the Aratar! (one of the eight Valar of greatest power).
However, this reeks of predestined fate! Illúvatar knew in advance the outcome of the whole war and maneuvered all his pawns to His own wishes and plans.
Stormrider
Nice work.
And what about Gandalf's death... who allowed him to return? And more powerful? The Valar had not the power, Iluvatar was beyond that. What do you think?
Olórin
DA
I have taken the task of tracking the intervention of Illúvatar and the Valar. A daunting task I fear, fraught with ambiguity for they seldom let their influence be known as such, rather preferring it to be thought coincidence or even fortune (whether good or bad).
Since, by design, evidence of their Interjacence is meant to go unnoticed, I may miss a few (or many) incidences that are obvious to others. Therefore, I gladly welcome any additions to this thread.
Also, if DaleAnn concurs, I invite any debate or questions concerning that which I deem to be Divine Intervention.
Namárië,
Illadria
In Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past, when giving Frodo an account of Gollum's history, Gandalf says of Bilbo's finding the One Ring:
"There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to it's master. It slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Déagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when it's master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!
Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by it's maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought."
Namárïe,
Illadria
In The Shadow of the Past after Frodo came to the decision to leave the Shire, Gandalf said, "...Bilbo made no mistake in chosing his heir, though he little thought how important it would prove."
That is probably true, for Bilbo, though perhaps one of the wizest and most learned of all Hobbits was still only a Hobbit. As Gandalf stated, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." But there is one who can, Illuvatar (see The Silmarillion, Ainulindale)
What might have happened if Frodo had not been Bilbo's heir?
I think Bilbo would still have left the Shire, sooner rather than later without Frodo around, and his estate would have gone to the Sackville-Bagginses. (see A Long-expected Party, Otho demanding to see the will) The ring most likely though, would not have. Bilbo loved it too much and would not have given it up for Otho and Lobellia. (It's best left at that. The very idea of the ring in their hands is too much to even consider at this time.) So the One Ring would have gone east with Bilbo. But what then? No one would have yet guessed the danger, and Bilbo would likely have continued to weaken against the ring's evil.
But that is not what was meant to happen.
I propose that Frodo Baggins was predestined to have the ring; that he was born to be the Ring Bearer.
"...Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by it's maker. In which case you also were meant to have it." (Gandalf, The Shadow of the Past, Gollum's story)
"...you have been chosen..." (Gandalf, The Shadow of the Past, discussing the destruction of the ring)
It was not by mere coincidence that Frodo was born on Bilbo's birthday. Elders tend to show instant fondness (more than the usual) for those bearing their name or born on their birthday. And, as cruel as it may seem, it is likely that the untimely deaths of Drogo and Primula were the design of the Valar, executed specifically by Ulmo. Their death left Frodo an orphan and eventually led to his moving to Bag-End and becoming Bilbo's sole heir.
Because he had freewill, Frodo could have denied his birthright (his destiny), but he did not. He was a righteous Hobbit, just a Illuvatar created him to be.
Namárïe,
Illadria
Stemming from an enlightened discussion at The Pony (Thanks DA and Algy), here are more thoughts on Frodo's predestination as a ring-bearer.
Isildur took the ring from Sauron but would not destroy it, the ring however, having a will of it's own betrayed Isildur by slipping off his finger...right into Ulmo's grasp. ("...no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful..." ~Illúvatar, The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)
In the Aduin, Ulmo kept the ring safely hidden for nearly 2500 years until it was found by Déagol. Likely Déagol was meant to find the ring..."He had a friend called Déagol, of similar sort, sharper-eyed but not so quick and strong." (FOTR, The Shadow of the Past) ...but he was not meant to keep it. Sméagol, being the craftier, would be a much better guardian than Déagol. And the ring did need a new guardian to keep it hidden until Frodo's time. Illúvatar had revealed some of what was to come to the Valar (see The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë), so Ulmo knew that Sauron's servants would learn of Isildur's end and search the area where the ring had lain hidden. This did finally happen in about 2939 TA, almost 500 years after Ulmo had allowed Déagol to find the ring.
Two years later the Valar (likely with help from Illúvatar) set the wheels in motion to lead Bilbo directly to the ring. Sméagol's time as a ringbearer had come to an end, though his complete destiny had not yet been fulfilled.
Why did the ring choose that time to abandon Gollum? It had been content to bide it's time with him for half a century, surely it had not suddenly grown impatient. Did it sense Sauron's growing strength? No. Sauron had not yet returned to Mordor nor to gather his power. He was still in hiding. If the ring had just stayed with Gollum ten years more, it would have then begun it's return to master. But it did'nt wait. And again, though it thought it played it's own theme, it was but an instrument for Illúvatar. For whatever reason, the ring itself decided to leave Gollum, just at the same time that the Valar led Bilbo to the ring. And it did certainly serve the Valar for Gollum to no longer have possesion of the ring, with it he would've have killed and eaten Bilbo (how's that for vile and disgusting?). Often I think about Bilbos escape from Gollum..."And then quite suddenly in another flash, as if lifted by a new strength and resolve, he leapt. No great leap for a man, but a leap in the dark. Straight over Gollum's head he jumped, seven feet forward and three in the air; indeed, had he known it, he only just missed cracking his skull on the low arch of the passage."..."...and Bilbo, falling fair on his sturdy feet, sped off down the new tunnel." (The Hobbit, Riddles in the Dark) Bilbo never really struck me as being particularly athletic, and even if he were, that leap, missing hitting his head, and the perfect landing would still have been some terrific feat. Obviously, he had help.
So Bilbo got the ring.
Sauron returned to Mordor where he began to rebuild his power and soon after to call all evil to himself, including Gollum (now ringless).
But Bilbo returned to the Shire with the ring. Sauron did not yet know anything about the Shire, nor would he have any reason ever to concen himself with it. The ring was now seperated from it's master by a great geological distance, and the Shire, being a land where nobody ever had any adventures, and very few outsiders ever visited, was not a place the ring could easily escape. It had no choice then but to wait and follow it's bearer where he led it.
Namárïe,
Illadria
Great work, Ill. Until now, I thought of Deagol's finding of the ring and Gollum's possession of it as an accident. Of course, it was no accident. That makes sense, now!
Sparrow
Isildur took the ring from Sauron but would not destroy it, the ring however, having a will of it's own betrayed Isildur by slipping off his finger...right into Ulmo's grasp. ("...no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful..." ~Illúvatar, The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)
Wow! This statement really blows me away! I never thought of this before! What better safe place to hide the Ring from Sauron but with one of the Aratar! (one of the eight Valar of greatest power).
However, this reeks of predestined fate! Illúvatar knew in advance the outcome of the whole war and maneuvered all his pawns to His own wishes and plans.
Stormrider
Nice work.
And what about Gandalf's death... who allowed him to return? And more powerful? The Valar had not the power, Iluvatar was beyond that. What do you think?
Olórin