Post by Andorinha on Jan 17, 2009 0:47:21 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE : Week Two - Melkor Again
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Message 1 of 15 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:03 AM
Please, do not start the discussion until Sunday.
The discussion about the character of Melkor and the nature of evil was intriguing and insightful. Let’s continue that conversation, considering the additional material we have covered. How does the following shape our view of Melkor and evil?
1. The example of Aule, who also desired to make things and beings for himself, but who responded differently than Melkor in his relationship to Iluvatar.
2. The statement that the vilest deed of Melkor was to mutate some elves into the orcs.
3. The statement at the end of chapter 6 (when Melkor is released) that "all love had departed from him forever."
Also, Chapter 6 says that "Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it." How does this compare with what Gandalf says in LOTR, that Sauron is incapable of understanding the motives of the fellowship - that Sauron must assume that anyone who acquired the One Ring would want to use it. (To me that has always implied that evil cannot comprehend good.)
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Message 2 of 15 in Discussion
From: Cephas
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:30 AM
It's Sunday here, so I will begin my post.
Just wondering though, if Aule had the power to create the dwarves, why couldn't Melkor do the same? I remember reading earlier that Melkor was the brother of Manwe, and had a little of each of the Valar's gifts. If he had desired and thirst for his own beings, why didn't he just create them then?
Hope someone can answer this. I really am puzzled.
Cephas
P/S By the way, did anyone get the 7 Fathers of dwarves similarity to the 7 dwarves from Disney? Thought it was really subtle on Tolkien's part
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Message 3 of 15 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/21/2002 3:06 AM
I am not sure about the moment it happened, but, once Melkor became evil, his power to create life forms was taken away. Evil cannot create. It can only corrupt. That is why he had to use Elves to corrupt into Orcs, rather than start from scratch.
It is no secret (from Letters) that Tolkien disliked Disney intensely. I wonder when the section about the 7 fathers of the Dwarves was written. Does it postdate the Disney Snow White? How many dwarves were in the original folktale?
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Message 4 of 15 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/21/2002 4:05 AM
With Aule I believe this passage best explains why Aule could create the Dwarves and yet Melkor could not create any life:
Of the fabric of the Earth had Aule thought, to whom Iluvatar had given knowlege scarce less than Melkor; but the delight and pride of Aule is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing always onto some new work.
Aule's thoughts were not muddled by possession as were Melkor's. And Aule was free from care, he spent none of his power on the worry or fear that he would lose anything. Possession and the hording of wealth and power were paramount to Melkor and he was always striving to take that which was not his or marr what he could not possess. Melkor sqaundered his gifts from the begining by his attempt to dominate and gave no thought to creation. His thought lay only in himself and of himself. When Aule created the Dwarves it was not to control or possess it was out of love for somthing/somebody to share the wonderous place he and the rest of the Valar were making. Not in pride were they made but in the joy of letting another perceive Ardas beauty.
My point of view of course, but even with people those who are caught up in their own worries and cares fail to see the solutions right before their faces. I would have to assume it was of like kind with the Valar.
Namarie,
Iarwain
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Message 5 of 15 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire Sent: 4/21/2002 11:50 AM
i think that Melcor's inability to create had something to do with his anger....inpatients i suppose, I know from experience you can't put out a very good piece of art when you are pre occupied with something else.
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Message 6 of 15 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:54 PM
Also, Chapter 6 says that "Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it." How does this compare with what Gandalf says in LOTR, that Sauron is incapable of understanding the motives of the fellowship - that Sauron must assume that anyone who acquired the One Ring would want to use it. (To me that has always implied that evil cannot comprehend good.)
In real life, people tend to assume that others operate with the same motives as themselves. Likewise, Manwe, being free from evil, could not comprehend that someone would act with evil intent. Likewise, Sauron, whose motive for seeking the ring was to use it, could not comprehend that anyone would pass up the opportunity to do so. The comment about Manwe in Chapter 6 and Gandalf's comment about Sauron are flip sides of the same coin. Does anyone think Sauron's assumption played a part in his downfall?
It seems to me Saruman could not comprehend that anyone would want to destroy the ring, and therefore he left Mt. Doom ungaurded when he went to meet Aragon and the forces of the west. Therefore, Saruman's lack of comprehension did play a part in the ultimate destruction of the ring. Another example of how evil does itself in.
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Message 7 of 15 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/22/2002 5:39 AM
Aulë created the Dwarves so that he could teach them and nurture them. He was impatient and could not wait for the Children to be. He created them with love and turned them over to Ilúvatar when he realized he had done wrong.
Melkor, on the other hand, did not create his evil Orcs from love but from hatred. He created them to use and abuse and help him destroy Arda and everything that was created by the other Ainur/Valar.
Stormrider
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Message 8 of 15 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/22/2002 11:10 AM
I feel that Melkor wanted to dominate and oppress the other beings on Arda. What joy would it have been to create something and have mindless control over them. Melkor was interested in imposing his will on sentinent beings and forcing them to submit to him. The power involved with dominating other minds would never have occurred with beings he would have made because he never would had allowed them to be anything other than subserviant with no free will or original thought. Once the power to create was taken from him he could only twist other beings into a corruption of thier original form. This feeling of mastery and control seems to be the driving force behind his actions.
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Message 9 of 15 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/22/2002 1:47 PM
Melkor is interesting in himself, but I find myself even more interested in Sauron. The Maiar seem to choose which Valar they attach themselves to - which they serve- and I wonder at Sauron's motives for choosing to be an acolyte of Melkor rather than, say, Manwë or Aulë. Power for himself? A nasty streak? A taste for hatred, such as Melkor had? Or was he subsumed and subverted by Melkor's powerful personality?
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 10 of 15 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/22/2002 3:19 PM
In the very beginning Sauron WAS an Maira of Aulë's! He was lured away and corrupted by Melkor. He became almost as evil as Melkor and served him well!
Stormrider
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Message 11 of 15 in Discussion
From: Selmo
Sent: 4/24/2002 4:18 AM
Melkor was skilled at transforming living beings from one form to another.
Aule was skilled in manipulating non-living material.
Neither could create living, sentient creatures.
Aule's dwarves were lifeless things until Illuvatar intervened.
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Message 12 of 15 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/24/2002 5:00 AM
Ah, but Selmo,
Did they not cower as Aule raised him hammer to destroy them, isn't that why Iluvatar decided to allow them to become part of Middle Earth?
But on another note Stromrider opens another case: What of Melkor and Ungoliant, hope I am not rushing ahead here, but was she a Valar or a Maiar I don't recall it mentioned. It was however mentioned that Melkor both feared and hated her yet saw in her vile hatered towards the light a way to use her power. Melkor master of tongues, just as his later acolyte Sauron, who in turn converted Saurman. Interesting that Aule seems to be the nexus for all the negative things in the tales. He was the teacher of Sauron, Saurman and Feanor, yet he (Aule) was so without greed or pride.
I'm sure someone has noted that I seem to recall but it bears further disscusion as we reach the proper point.
Namarie
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Message 13 of 15 in Discussion
From: Selmo
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:21 AM
Iarwain,
I think that the Dwarves cowered when Aule raised his hammer because Illuvatar gave them life, a spark of the Flame Imperishable, at that moment.
By commanding Aule to destroy the dwarves, Illuvatar was testing him. By showing his willingness to destroy the work he had come to love, Aule proved his loyalty to Illuvatar and proved that he wasn't becoming another Melkor. That was all Illuvatar needed to know to grant the dwarves life so that they immediately became aware and could feel fear.
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Message 14 of 15 in Discussion
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:32 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 15 of 15 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 4/29/2002 9:11 PM
Selmo,
You made an interesting point about Iluvatar testing Aule. It reminds me of the testing of Abraham concerning Isaac.
~Sparrow
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 15 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:03 AM
Please, do not start the discussion until Sunday.
The discussion about the character of Melkor and the nature of evil was intriguing and insightful. Let’s continue that conversation, considering the additional material we have covered. How does the following shape our view of Melkor and evil?
1. The example of Aule, who also desired to make things and beings for himself, but who responded differently than Melkor in his relationship to Iluvatar.
2. The statement that the vilest deed of Melkor was to mutate some elves into the orcs.
3. The statement at the end of chapter 6 (when Melkor is released) that "all love had departed from him forever."
Also, Chapter 6 says that "Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it." How does this compare with what Gandalf says in LOTR, that Sauron is incapable of understanding the motives of the fellowship - that Sauron must assume that anyone who acquired the One Ring would want to use it. (To me that has always implied that evil cannot comprehend good.)
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 15 in Discussion
From: Cephas
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:30 AM
It's Sunday here, so I will begin my post.
Just wondering though, if Aule had the power to create the dwarves, why couldn't Melkor do the same? I remember reading earlier that Melkor was the brother of Manwe, and had a little of each of the Valar's gifts. If he had desired and thirst for his own beings, why didn't he just create them then?
Hope someone can answer this. I really am puzzled.
Cephas
P/S By the way, did anyone get the 7 Fathers of dwarves similarity to the 7 dwarves from Disney? Thought it was really subtle on Tolkien's part
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 15 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/21/2002 3:06 AM
I am not sure about the moment it happened, but, once Melkor became evil, his power to create life forms was taken away. Evil cannot create. It can only corrupt. That is why he had to use Elves to corrupt into Orcs, rather than start from scratch.
It is no secret (from Letters) that Tolkien disliked Disney intensely. I wonder when the section about the 7 fathers of the Dwarves was written. Does it postdate the Disney Snow White? How many dwarves were in the original folktale?
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 15 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/21/2002 4:05 AM
With Aule I believe this passage best explains why Aule could create the Dwarves and yet Melkor could not create any life:
Of the fabric of the Earth had Aule thought, to whom Iluvatar had given knowlege scarce less than Melkor; but the delight and pride of Aule is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing always onto some new work.
Aule's thoughts were not muddled by possession as were Melkor's. And Aule was free from care, he spent none of his power on the worry or fear that he would lose anything. Possession and the hording of wealth and power were paramount to Melkor and he was always striving to take that which was not his or marr what he could not possess. Melkor sqaundered his gifts from the begining by his attempt to dominate and gave no thought to creation. His thought lay only in himself and of himself. When Aule created the Dwarves it was not to control or possess it was out of love for somthing/somebody to share the wonderous place he and the rest of the Valar were making. Not in pride were they made but in the joy of letting another perceive Ardas beauty.
My point of view of course, but even with people those who are caught up in their own worries and cares fail to see the solutions right before their faces. I would have to assume it was of like kind with the Valar.
Namarie,
Iarwain
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 15 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire Sent: 4/21/2002 11:50 AM
i think that Melcor's inability to create had something to do with his anger....inpatients i suppose, I know from experience you can't put out a very good piece of art when you are pre occupied with something else.
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 15 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 4/21/2002 2:54 PM
Also, Chapter 6 says that "Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it." How does this compare with what Gandalf says in LOTR, that Sauron is incapable of understanding the motives of the fellowship - that Sauron must assume that anyone who acquired the One Ring would want to use it. (To me that has always implied that evil cannot comprehend good.)
In real life, people tend to assume that others operate with the same motives as themselves. Likewise, Manwe, being free from evil, could not comprehend that someone would act with evil intent. Likewise, Sauron, whose motive for seeking the ring was to use it, could not comprehend that anyone would pass up the opportunity to do so. The comment about Manwe in Chapter 6 and Gandalf's comment about Sauron are flip sides of the same coin. Does anyone think Sauron's assumption played a part in his downfall?
It seems to me Saruman could not comprehend that anyone would want to destroy the ring, and therefore he left Mt. Doom ungaurded when he went to meet Aragon and the forces of the west. Therefore, Saruman's lack of comprehension did play a part in the ultimate destruction of the ring. Another example of how evil does itself in.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 15 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/22/2002 5:39 AM
Aulë created the Dwarves so that he could teach them and nurture them. He was impatient and could not wait for the Children to be. He created them with love and turned them over to Ilúvatar when he realized he had done wrong.
Melkor, on the other hand, did not create his evil Orcs from love but from hatred. He created them to use and abuse and help him destroy Arda and everything that was created by the other Ainur/Valar.
Stormrider
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 15 in Discussion
From: rivers
Sent: 4/22/2002 11:10 AM
I feel that Melkor wanted to dominate and oppress the other beings on Arda. What joy would it have been to create something and have mindless control over them. Melkor was interested in imposing his will on sentinent beings and forcing them to submit to him. The power involved with dominating other minds would never have occurred with beings he would have made because he never would had allowed them to be anything other than subserviant with no free will or original thought. Once the power to create was taken from him he could only twist other beings into a corruption of thier original form. This feeling of mastery and control seems to be the driving force behind his actions.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 15 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/22/2002 1:47 PM
Melkor is interesting in himself, but I find myself even more interested in Sauron. The Maiar seem to choose which Valar they attach themselves to - which they serve- and I wonder at Sauron's motives for choosing to be an acolyte of Melkor rather than, say, Manwë or Aulë. Power for himself? A nasty streak? A taste for hatred, such as Melkor had? Or was he subsumed and subverted by Melkor's powerful personality?
namaste,
Azurite
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 15 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/22/2002 3:19 PM
In the very beginning Sauron WAS an Maira of Aulë's! He was lured away and corrupted by Melkor. He became almost as evil as Melkor and served him well!
Stormrider
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 15 in Discussion
From: Selmo
Sent: 4/24/2002 4:18 AM
Melkor was skilled at transforming living beings from one form to another.
Aule was skilled in manipulating non-living material.
Neither could create living, sentient creatures.
Aule's dwarves were lifeless things until Illuvatar intervened.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 15 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/24/2002 5:00 AM
Ah, but Selmo,
Did they not cower as Aule raised him hammer to destroy them, isn't that why Iluvatar decided to allow them to become part of Middle Earth?
But on another note Stromrider opens another case: What of Melkor and Ungoliant, hope I am not rushing ahead here, but was she a Valar or a Maiar I don't recall it mentioned. It was however mentioned that Melkor both feared and hated her yet saw in her vile hatered towards the light a way to use her power. Melkor master of tongues, just as his later acolyte Sauron, who in turn converted Saurman. Interesting that Aule seems to be the nexus for all the negative things in the tales. He was the teacher of Sauron, Saurman and Feanor, yet he (Aule) was so without greed or pride.
I'm sure someone has noted that I seem to recall but it bears further disscusion as we reach the proper point.
Namarie
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 15 in Discussion
From: Selmo
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:21 AM
Iarwain,
I think that the Dwarves cowered when Aule raised his hammer because Illuvatar gave them life, a spark of the Flame Imperishable, at that moment.
By commanding Aule to destroy the dwarves, Illuvatar was testing him. By showing his willingness to destroy the work he had come to love, Aule proved his loyalty to Illuvatar and proved that he wasn't becoming another Melkor. That was all Illuvatar needed to know to grant the dwarves life so that they immediately became aware and could feel fear.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 15 in Discussion
Sent: 4/25/2002 8:32 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 15 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 4/29/2002 9:11 PM
Selmo,
You made an interesting point about Iluvatar testing Aule. It reminds me of the testing of Abraham concerning Isaac.
~Sparrow