Post by MajahTR on Jan 17, 2009 1:30:15 GMT -6
Annie would like us to track the character development of Aragorn. This will be a group effort though I hope Annie will pay extra attention to it.
DA
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I would like to trace the word or theme "hope" espcially as it relates to Aragorn. As many of you already know Aragorn’s elvish name is Estel which means hope. I became aware of these references while reading ROTK and have become very curious about how and when this word is used. As we track his character development, I would also like to see if there are earlier occurances of the word "hope" with regards to the future King of the Reunited Kingdom.
We first encounter Aragorn as the suspicious ranger, Strider in Book One, Chapter 9, At the Sign of the Prancing Pony but Gandalf mentions him to Frodo much earlier in Book 1, Chapter 2, Shadow of the Past. It is here I would like to begin our focus. Are there any clues to his identity, race, origins, personality, character, talents, etc.? What do we know of this character from the description given us?
As DaleAnn has already said this will be a group effort and I invite you to leave any questions or insights that might assist us in gaining a deeper understanding. I’m really looking forward to exploring this most interesting ME personality with all of you.
Annie
"And my search would have been in vain, but for the help that I had from a friend: Aragorn, the greatest traveller and huntsman of this age of the world. Together we sought for Gollum down the whole length of Wilderland without hope, and without success. But at last, when I had given up the chase and turned to other parts, Gollum was found. My friend returned out of great perils bringing the miserable creature with him."
From this passage I came to the following conclusions about Aragorn:
he is supportive (he helped Gandalf when Gandalf needed him)
he is a skilled huntsman
he knows much of Middle Earth (greatest traveller)
he's tenacious (even when Gandalf gave up, he did not)
he is courageous and triumphant
he trusts Gandalf (why else search for 9 years in the most dangerous place ME, just to ask him a few questions)
Namárïe,
Illadria
Annie,
I think Illadria has concisely listed most of the observations to describe Strider at this point save one.......Gandalf trust "him" completely and admires "him" as well. Never did Gandalf describe anyone so glowingly as he describes Aragorn to Frodo. I'm at a loss for more right now, but perhaps there are other hints.
Namárië,
Iarwain
From Gandalf's subscription of Aragorn in the Shadow of the Past we are given the image of a very determined and valiant man. Aragorn is an unwearying figure(as we learn later in LotR) and pushes himself to the limit to reach his goal. Illadria tells us that Aragorn is one not to give up (he still had hope, even when Gandalf had lost all will to hunt for Gollum). Aragron is one to be respected for such a feat.
Taking a look at this quote for the first time, I considered Aragorn to be a man from the east, a beorning or outcast man of Dale. I find that this may have been an alternative for Tolkien who may have tried to bring Aragorn in later in the books in his earlier versions of LotR. Nonetheless Aragorn's development into the mighty man he would become was already in the process, even by chapter 2.
Tuor
Illadria, thank you for posting the passage. Isn’t it amazing that so much information is conveyed in just a few sentences? You have given us a very concise list of qualities. You mentioned a nine 9 year search. Somehow I am remembering 13. Does Tolkien tell us elsewhere in this chapter or before how long this search takes or is it revealed later, perhaps at the Council?
Ahhh! That Gandalf trusts Aragorn was an important observation to me as well, Iarwain. I would like to explore this matter of trust further when we rejoin the Ranger at Bree. I had to pause a moment when reading, "Never did Gandalf describe anyone so glowingly as he describes Aragorn to Frodo." Ummmm. This is a new thought for me. It reinforces the idea that they have had a strong bond of friendship lasting over a span of many years.
It was Gandalf who saw the search for Gollum as being "without hope". I liked the way Tumnus turned that phrase to Aragorn who "still had hope". Very interesting. I missed that turn so I thank you for pointing it out. And I agree that this may have been an alternative for Tolkien who did struggle with when to bring in Aragorn and how much to reveal to his readers about his history. I am continuously filled with awe that Tolkien, in spite of a few "errors", made all the right choices, this excerpt included. We are given an extensive amount of knowledge about the character of Aragorn but who he is and what he will become is intentionally omitted.
I am wondering how many readers retained this passage as they worked their way through the rest of LOTR. When I first read the Fellowship, I was overwhelmed with the information contained in just the Preface and first two chapters; (Stormrider and DaleAnn’s list of terms can attest to that!) so much so that it was impossible for me to keep track of it all. This small but significant description of Aragorn was lost and not recalled when I discovered later that Strider, who does reveal his true name to the hobbits, is to become their guide. I was filled with suspicion and dread that somewhere along the journey he would betray them. It took a long time to change this initial feeling. If I had retained that bit of knowledge, I would have accepted this somber rumpled stranger sitting in a dark corner much more quickly. In retrospect I am glad that I had this apprehension for it was this that made me curious to discover more about this man who would be King. Subsequent readings brought this excerpt to mind but it was not until this reading that the impact of Gandalf’s words struck me so strongly. Thank you, dear friends, for your tremendous insights.
If you have other thoughts or queries concerning this passage, please include them here. It’s a long way to Bree…
Annie
Annie,
I based the nine year search on the renewed hunt for Gollum which Aragorn and Gandalf began in TA 3009, but apparently I don't know how to add because Aragorn captured Gollum in TA 3017, ending the eight year search.
They had both been searching for Gollum prior to that, but it was at that time that the hunt took on a sense of urgency.
Illadria
"I was filled with suspicion and dread that somewhere along the journey he would betray them. It took a long time to change this initial feeling."
Annie: I believe it was Tolkien's intent for the reader to have suspicions about Strider at this point. I too was very suspicious of him during my first reading. I wanted to trust him but, like you, was afraid that he might betray them somewhere during the journey.
Stormrider
Illadria, I hadn’t thought to look at dates to determine the duration of this search. As you have pointed out, it is in TA 3009 that the hunt takes on a sense of urgency. So, I concur on the 8 year period. Glad to have you here.
Stormrider writes that "it was Tolkien’s intent for the reader to have suspicions about Strider at this point." I agree and am wondering when the reader releases suspicions and accepts/trusts Aragorn completely. I am sure this would be different for each reader. It might be interesting to note these as we proceed.
I still ponder why Tolkien gives us this description in the first place if he plans to arouse our suspicions later. Why not just leave it "with the help of a friend" rather than give us this small but glowing introduction?
And Tom Bombadil has something to say before we leave the Barrow Downs. I'm not sure if I noticed this before but this time it jumped out at me!
Annie
Towards the end of Book 1, Chapter 8, we find the Hobbits looking through the treasures that Tom has retrieved. Among these are various knives and swords forged many long years ago by the Men of Westernesse.
"Few now remember them," Tom murmured, "yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten Kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless."
What makes this utterance particularly important to me is the effect that these words have on the hobbits.
"The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow."
For those of us that have read LOTR before, this excerpt will most likely have significance. If this is your first time, you may want to make note of this passage as its meaning will become clear as we go on. Some additional questions: Who do you think are the folk who are heedless? Who are the sons of forgotten Kings and why are they walking in loneliness? What evil are they guarding the heedless folk against? You might want to remember this as we enter Chapters 9 and 10. Are we given any more information that might answer these questions?
We have arrived at The Prancing Pony and are given descriptions of the various characters who are present.
Which hobbit first notices the "…strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall…listening intently to the hobbit talk"? Is it significant, do you think, that Frodo spies him first? And what is our initial reaction? How does Mr. Butterbur feel about the stranger? Can we trust Strider at this point? Why or why not? How does Strider get the hobbits to trust him? Who is the first to accept the stranger and who is the last?
"A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship." Even as Strider spoke these words for the first time, I remember saying, "No, No, don’t trust him. He could be a black rider." I obviously sided with the hobbit who remained dubious. Why do you think it took him so long to accept this stranger? At what point do you begin to trust Strider? Did you begin to relax once the letter from Gandalf had been read? And what comments do you have about the " All that is gold does not glitter and all those who wander are not lost…" Why doesn’t Strider inform the hobbits he is Gandalf’s friend before they read the wizard’s letter? Does any of this shine light on Aragorn’s character?
Please feel free to respond to any of these questions, or ask your own. Any additional observations are welcome, too.
Annie
Annie, I agree that on this reading the "vision" the Hobbits had really jumped out at me. "The one with the star on his forehead"--I wonder -- could that be considered prophesy?
As to why Aragorn did not reveal himself until the Hobbits had read Gandalf's letter--perhaps he had hoped to be accepted for himself without anyone's recommendation. Just a guess .
MusicMom
I agree with MusicMom; I think that Aragorn wanted the Hobbits to decide to trust in him based on their experience of him . They needed to develop insights into people; they were on a road filled with strangers and strange encounters. They needed to learn to move past mistrusting just for the sake of it, and learn to judge for themselves.
Strider won me over when he laughed about "looking foul and feeling fair".
Hilary
DA
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I would like to trace the word or theme "hope" espcially as it relates to Aragorn. As many of you already know Aragorn’s elvish name is Estel which means hope. I became aware of these references while reading ROTK and have become very curious about how and when this word is used. As we track his character development, I would also like to see if there are earlier occurances of the word "hope" with regards to the future King of the Reunited Kingdom.
We first encounter Aragorn as the suspicious ranger, Strider in Book One, Chapter 9, At the Sign of the Prancing Pony but Gandalf mentions him to Frodo much earlier in Book 1, Chapter 2, Shadow of the Past. It is here I would like to begin our focus. Are there any clues to his identity, race, origins, personality, character, talents, etc.? What do we know of this character from the description given us?
As DaleAnn has already said this will be a group effort and I invite you to leave any questions or insights that might assist us in gaining a deeper understanding. I’m really looking forward to exploring this most interesting ME personality with all of you.
Annie
"And my search would have been in vain, but for the help that I had from a friend: Aragorn, the greatest traveller and huntsman of this age of the world. Together we sought for Gollum down the whole length of Wilderland without hope, and without success. But at last, when I had given up the chase and turned to other parts, Gollum was found. My friend returned out of great perils bringing the miserable creature with him."
From this passage I came to the following conclusions about Aragorn:
he is supportive (he helped Gandalf when Gandalf needed him)
he is a skilled huntsman
he knows much of Middle Earth (greatest traveller)
he's tenacious (even when Gandalf gave up, he did not)
he is courageous and triumphant
he trusts Gandalf (why else search for 9 years in the most dangerous place ME, just to ask him a few questions)
Namárïe,
Illadria
Annie,
I think Illadria has concisely listed most of the observations to describe Strider at this point save one.......Gandalf trust "him" completely and admires "him" as well. Never did Gandalf describe anyone so glowingly as he describes Aragorn to Frodo. I'm at a loss for more right now, but perhaps there are other hints.
Namárië,
Iarwain
From Gandalf's subscription of Aragorn in the Shadow of the Past we are given the image of a very determined and valiant man. Aragorn is an unwearying figure(as we learn later in LotR) and pushes himself to the limit to reach his goal. Illadria tells us that Aragorn is one not to give up (he still had hope, even when Gandalf had lost all will to hunt for Gollum). Aragron is one to be respected for such a feat.
Taking a look at this quote for the first time, I considered Aragorn to be a man from the east, a beorning or outcast man of Dale. I find that this may have been an alternative for Tolkien who may have tried to bring Aragorn in later in the books in his earlier versions of LotR. Nonetheless Aragorn's development into the mighty man he would become was already in the process, even by chapter 2.
Tuor
Illadria, thank you for posting the passage. Isn’t it amazing that so much information is conveyed in just a few sentences? You have given us a very concise list of qualities. You mentioned a nine 9 year search. Somehow I am remembering 13. Does Tolkien tell us elsewhere in this chapter or before how long this search takes or is it revealed later, perhaps at the Council?
Ahhh! That Gandalf trusts Aragorn was an important observation to me as well, Iarwain. I would like to explore this matter of trust further when we rejoin the Ranger at Bree. I had to pause a moment when reading, "Never did Gandalf describe anyone so glowingly as he describes Aragorn to Frodo." Ummmm. This is a new thought for me. It reinforces the idea that they have had a strong bond of friendship lasting over a span of many years.
It was Gandalf who saw the search for Gollum as being "without hope". I liked the way Tumnus turned that phrase to Aragorn who "still had hope". Very interesting. I missed that turn so I thank you for pointing it out. And I agree that this may have been an alternative for Tolkien who did struggle with when to bring in Aragorn and how much to reveal to his readers about his history. I am continuously filled with awe that Tolkien, in spite of a few "errors", made all the right choices, this excerpt included. We are given an extensive amount of knowledge about the character of Aragorn but who he is and what he will become is intentionally omitted.
I am wondering how many readers retained this passage as they worked their way through the rest of LOTR. When I first read the Fellowship, I was overwhelmed with the information contained in just the Preface and first two chapters; (Stormrider and DaleAnn’s list of terms can attest to that!) so much so that it was impossible for me to keep track of it all. This small but significant description of Aragorn was lost and not recalled when I discovered later that Strider, who does reveal his true name to the hobbits, is to become their guide. I was filled with suspicion and dread that somewhere along the journey he would betray them. It took a long time to change this initial feeling. If I had retained that bit of knowledge, I would have accepted this somber rumpled stranger sitting in a dark corner much more quickly. In retrospect I am glad that I had this apprehension for it was this that made me curious to discover more about this man who would be King. Subsequent readings brought this excerpt to mind but it was not until this reading that the impact of Gandalf’s words struck me so strongly. Thank you, dear friends, for your tremendous insights.
If you have other thoughts or queries concerning this passage, please include them here. It’s a long way to Bree…
Annie
Annie,
I based the nine year search on the renewed hunt for Gollum which Aragorn and Gandalf began in TA 3009, but apparently I don't know how to add because Aragorn captured Gollum in TA 3017, ending the eight year search.
They had both been searching for Gollum prior to that, but it was at that time that the hunt took on a sense of urgency.
Illadria
"I was filled with suspicion and dread that somewhere along the journey he would betray them. It took a long time to change this initial feeling."
Annie: I believe it was Tolkien's intent for the reader to have suspicions about Strider at this point. I too was very suspicious of him during my first reading. I wanted to trust him but, like you, was afraid that he might betray them somewhere during the journey.
Stormrider
Illadria, I hadn’t thought to look at dates to determine the duration of this search. As you have pointed out, it is in TA 3009 that the hunt takes on a sense of urgency. So, I concur on the 8 year period. Glad to have you here.
Stormrider writes that "it was Tolkien’s intent for the reader to have suspicions about Strider at this point." I agree and am wondering when the reader releases suspicions and accepts/trusts Aragorn completely. I am sure this would be different for each reader. It might be interesting to note these as we proceed.
I still ponder why Tolkien gives us this description in the first place if he plans to arouse our suspicions later. Why not just leave it "with the help of a friend" rather than give us this small but glowing introduction?
And Tom Bombadil has something to say before we leave the Barrow Downs. I'm not sure if I noticed this before but this time it jumped out at me!
Annie
Towards the end of Book 1, Chapter 8, we find the Hobbits looking through the treasures that Tom has retrieved. Among these are various knives and swords forged many long years ago by the Men of Westernesse.
"Few now remember them," Tom murmured, "yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten Kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless."
What makes this utterance particularly important to me is the effect that these words have on the hobbits.
"The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow."
For those of us that have read LOTR before, this excerpt will most likely have significance. If this is your first time, you may want to make note of this passage as its meaning will become clear as we go on. Some additional questions: Who do you think are the folk who are heedless? Who are the sons of forgotten Kings and why are they walking in loneliness? What evil are they guarding the heedless folk against? You might want to remember this as we enter Chapters 9 and 10. Are we given any more information that might answer these questions?
We have arrived at The Prancing Pony and are given descriptions of the various characters who are present.
Which hobbit first notices the "…strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall…listening intently to the hobbit talk"? Is it significant, do you think, that Frodo spies him first? And what is our initial reaction? How does Mr. Butterbur feel about the stranger? Can we trust Strider at this point? Why or why not? How does Strider get the hobbits to trust him? Who is the first to accept the stranger and who is the last?
"A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship." Even as Strider spoke these words for the first time, I remember saying, "No, No, don’t trust him. He could be a black rider." I obviously sided with the hobbit who remained dubious. Why do you think it took him so long to accept this stranger? At what point do you begin to trust Strider? Did you begin to relax once the letter from Gandalf had been read? And what comments do you have about the " All that is gold does not glitter and all those who wander are not lost…" Why doesn’t Strider inform the hobbits he is Gandalf’s friend before they read the wizard’s letter? Does any of this shine light on Aragorn’s character?
Please feel free to respond to any of these questions, or ask your own. Any additional observations are welcome, too.
Annie
Annie, I agree that on this reading the "vision" the Hobbits had really jumped out at me. "The one with the star on his forehead"--I wonder -- could that be considered prophesy?
As to why Aragorn did not reveal himself until the Hobbits had read Gandalf's letter--perhaps he had hoped to be accepted for himself without anyone's recommendation. Just a guess .
MusicMom
I agree with MusicMom; I think that Aragorn wanted the Hobbits to decide to trust in him based on their experience of him . They needed to develop insights into people; they were on a road filled with strangers and strange encounters. They needed to learn to move past mistrusting just for the sake of it, and learn to judge for themselves.
Strider won me over when he laughed about "looking foul and feeling fair".
Hilary