Post by Andorinha on Jan 17, 2009 11:15:37 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE: The Doom of Mandos and "Elvish" Free Will
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Message 1 of 7 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/28/2002 8:26 PM
One thing that it seems that we overlook is the fact that the Elves are living their lives according to the designs of Ilùvatar. Because remember, the gift of the Elves is immortality but that of men is an unknown frontier called "Death" and the freedom of will from Ilùvatar's design. Does this "free will" actually taint the Elves who come in contact with it?
We can assume that Fëanor's act was not so much pride, but, the pride that Ilùvatar required through his thought and design. Does this make Fëanor blamless for his actions? We also observe that anytime one of the Eldar become enamoured with the Edain, they often lose eternal life or soon thereafter find residence in the Halls of Mandos. Sounds like a great idea for sundering, eh?
With this post, I only try to reveal a few unorganized thoughts that often occupy my deepest questions concerning the Children of Ilùvatar. Please respond with your thoughts, similar or differing.
Algamesh
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Message 2 of 7 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/29/2002 7:35 PM
Do the Eldar not have free will? They certainly act like they do.
Iluvatar tells Melkor that though he may try to do things of his own devising, in the end he will see that it all fits into Iluvatar's ultimate plan. Does that mean that Melkor doesn't choose his path on his own, but that it was all pre-planned for him? That's not how I see it.
Melkor, and the Eldar, have freedom to choose their own path. But Iluvatar takes even their most destructive acts and weaves them into the music so as to bring forth greater beauty in the overall design.
Without danger there could not be courage. Without evil, there would not be cause to take a stand for good. Virtues such as self-sacrifice and loyalty would have no meaning without the presence of evil.
The fact that Iluvatar will work all things together according to his plan, does not mean that the eldar do not have free will.
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Message 3 of 7 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/29/2002 7:50 PM
Free Will. The most interesting thought. Including the Ainur, all of Illuvitar's creations had free will. Any God could not have it otherwise. As we know it with our finite minds. Death. Gift or curse? Only someone with immortality could know it as a curse, and only someone with mortality could consider it as a gift.
Your ideas?
Glor
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Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/29/2002 8:43 PM
Megn1,
I guess I should justify (or clarify) my statement made concerning Elves and "Free Will".
Elves do not have the ability to do anything that was not part of the original Music of the Ainur. Men can.
Now, time to quote (going back to Chapter 3: The beginning of Days):
"But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children (<- even a foretelling of the Silmarils here probably); and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift. Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled to the last and the smallest."
I have high-lighted the area that infers the actions of the Elves are slave to Fate pre-determined. Elves are "pre-destinatious" and therefore, free-will is but an illusion to them.
In response to your statement about Melkor ... remember, that "egg" went bad before the Music was complete and he was in discordence with it throughout. I think that Melkor's ultimate end was not a determination of Fate either. But, here we see a paradox with believing that the other Vala are bound to their own Music. Were they "destined" to win in their battle against Evil"? I could really delve deep into the implications of all this but I think I'll save it for my world-tour "Lecture".
Anyway, having implied that neither Melkor nor Men are subject to ultimate fate, as are the rest of "the living" reminds me of the line (found in a nearby paragraph to the above)... "...for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that serve him."
Algamesh
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Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
From: Selmo
Sent: 4/30/2002 3:29 AM
Algamesh, in his quote from The Sill, includes the words "which is as fate to all things else."
Tolkien, who's very life was words, didn't use them lightly. When he says "as fate", I take that to mean that it only appeares to be fate. The whole history of the Elves, every tiny detail of what each individual Elf will do, is set out in the Music but at the same time the Elves have complete free-will.
This is how it works:
Illuvatar existed before the created universe. As time is a consequence of energy and matter (see Einstien's theories), Illuvatar existed before time and is therefore outside of time. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnitemporal.
He experiences time differently from us. He is aware of all of time. He does not predict or foretell what the Elves will do, he has seen what they will do of their own free-will.
He does not foresee, he sees.
He includes this knowlege in the Music.
He also knows how Man will use his free-will but doesn't include this in the Music because he wants them to be free of any hints of their future that may come to them from the Valar, through their contact with the Elves.
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Message 6 of 7 in Discussion
From: Azurite Sent: 5/3/2002 2:09 PM
I see no lack of free will in the Elves. In fact, I see free will among all creatures in creation; Elves, Valar, Men, whatever.
I think you're misinterpreting the line "beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else"; I don't think it's a reference to predestination, but simply to what happens on or after death. It simply means that Men are mortal and Elves are immortal, but they have free will in equal measure.
This explains a lot of what follows.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 7 of 7 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/4/2002 1:10 PM
I agree that Elves have free will. I don't have much to add to what has been said, except to comment that the Valar were grieved when Feanor rebelled. Since the Valar were closest to Iluvatar's mind I infer that Iluvatar was grieved as well. The Valar counseled only against Feanor's departure, and neither aided nor hindered. I am viewing the Valar as reflecting Iluvatar.
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Message 1 of 7 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/28/2002 8:26 PM
One thing that it seems that we overlook is the fact that the Elves are living their lives according to the designs of Ilùvatar. Because remember, the gift of the Elves is immortality but that of men is an unknown frontier called "Death" and the freedom of will from Ilùvatar's design. Does this "free will" actually taint the Elves who come in contact with it?
We can assume that Fëanor's act was not so much pride, but, the pride that Ilùvatar required through his thought and design. Does this make Fëanor blamless for his actions? We also observe that anytime one of the Eldar become enamoured with the Edain, they often lose eternal life or soon thereafter find residence in the Halls of Mandos. Sounds like a great idea for sundering, eh?
With this post, I only try to reveal a few unorganized thoughts that often occupy my deepest questions concerning the Children of Ilùvatar. Please respond with your thoughts, similar or differing.
Algamesh
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 7 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/29/2002 7:35 PM
Do the Eldar not have free will? They certainly act like they do.
Iluvatar tells Melkor that though he may try to do things of his own devising, in the end he will see that it all fits into Iluvatar's ultimate plan. Does that mean that Melkor doesn't choose his path on his own, but that it was all pre-planned for him? That's not how I see it.
Melkor, and the Eldar, have freedom to choose their own path. But Iluvatar takes even their most destructive acts and weaves them into the music so as to bring forth greater beauty in the overall design.
Without danger there could not be courage. Without evil, there would not be cause to take a stand for good. Virtues such as self-sacrifice and loyalty would have no meaning without the presence of evil.
The fact that Iluvatar will work all things together according to his plan, does not mean that the eldar do not have free will.
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 7 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/29/2002 7:50 PM
Free Will. The most interesting thought. Including the Ainur, all of Illuvitar's creations had free will. Any God could not have it otherwise. As we know it with our finite minds. Death. Gift or curse? Only someone with immortality could know it as a curse, and only someone with mortality could consider it as a gift.
Your ideas?
Glor
____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/29/2002 8:43 PM
Megn1,
I guess I should justify (or clarify) my statement made concerning Elves and "Free Will".
Elves do not have the ability to do anything that was not part of the original Music of the Ainur. Men can.
Now, time to quote (going back to Chapter 3: The beginning of Days):
"But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children (<- even a foretelling of the Silmarils here probably); and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift. Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled to the last and the smallest."
I have high-lighted the area that infers the actions of the Elves are slave to Fate pre-determined. Elves are "pre-destinatious" and therefore, free-will is but an illusion to them.
In response to your statement about Melkor ... remember, that "egg" went bad before the Music was complete and he was in discordence with it throughout. I think that Melkor's ultimate end was not a determination of Fate either. But, here we see a paradox with believing that the other Vala are bound to their own Music. Were they "destined" to win in their battle against Evil"? I could really delve deep into the implications of all this but I think I'll save it for my world-tour "Lecture".
Anyway, having implied that neither Melkor nor Men are subject to ultimate fate, as are the rest of "the living" reminds me of the line (found in a nearby paragraph to the above)... "...for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that serve him."
Algamesh
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
From: Selmo
Sent: 4/30/2002 3:29 AM
Algamesh, in his quote from The Sill, includes the words "which is as fate to all things else."
Tolkien, who's very life was words, didn't use them lightly. When he says "as fate", I take that to mean that it only appeares to be fate. The whole history of the Elves, every tiny detail of what each individual Elf will do, is set out in the Music but at the same time the Elves have complete free-will.
This is how it works:
Illuvatar existed before the created universe. As time is a consequence of energy and matter (see Einstien's theories), Illuvatar existed before time and is therefore outside of time. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnitemporal.
He experiences time differently from us. He is aware of all of time. He does not predict or foretell what the Elves will do, he has seen what they will do of their own free-will.
He does not foresee, he sees.
He includes this knowlege in the Music.
He also knows how Man will use his free-will but doesn't include this in the Music because he wants them to be free of any hints of their future that may come to them from the Valar, through their contact with the Elves.
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 7 in Discussion
From: Azurite Sent: 5/3/2002 2:09 PM
I see no lack of free will in the Elves. In fact, I see free will among all creatures in creation; Elves, Valar, Men, whatever.
I think you're misinterpreting the line "beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else"; I don't think it's a reference to predestination, but simply to what happens on or after death. It simply means that Men are mortal and Elves are immortal, but they have free will in equal measure.
This explains a lot of what follows.
namaste,
Azurite
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 7 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/4/2002 1:10 PM
I agree that Elves have free will. I don't have much to add to what has been said, except to comment that the Valar were grieved when Feanor rebelled. Since the Valar were closest to Iluvatar's mind I infer that Iluvatar was grieved as well. The Valar counseled only against Feanor's departure, and neither aided nor hindered. I am viewing the Valar as reflecting Iluvatar.