Post by Andorinha on Jan 17, 2009 11:25:23 GMT -6
The Sil ARCHIVE: Week Two - Just So
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Message 1 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:06 AM
Please do not start the discussion until Sunday.
One of the purposes of creation stories is to explain how the world got to be the way it is. Looking particularly at the first three chapters of Quenta Silmarillion, what have you discovered that explains some aspect of the Middle Earth we love… or the world we inhabit?
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Message 2 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/23/2002 9:12 PM
I keep feeling that I am near to an "aha" in The Sil, then I lose the thought.
It is interesting to discover that Gandalf is a Maia.He is a helper to the Vala. This sets him apart from my conception of wizards. In literature, it often seems that wizards are out to control people and situations with magic.Gandalf is not human. Humans cannot become wizards (even if they go to the right school).
Sauron is a fallen Maia.
WEN
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Message 3 of 23 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/23/2002 9:51 PM
Awesome point about a human being unable to learn to be a wizard!
(Tough luck, Mr. Potter )
In M.E. magic something one "has," not something one "works" (IMHO), and therefore it cannot be learned or acquired. It can be practiced and honed, as with any skill a person possesses. But just as a truly tone-deaf person cannot master the art of singing, no matter how much effort is used, so a human being cannot become a wizard.
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Message 4 of 23 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/23/2002 11:15 PM
Tolkiens precepts for magical ability are clearly inbred, and not subject to aquireablility. The Istari are clearly born as Maiar, and there is no indication that others of ANY race are able to attain that rank. The Eldar also seem to have magic ability, but cannot achieve the ability or rank of Maiar. The only difference in the ability of the Istari is demonstrated by Gandalf when he died, and was reborn. They obviously came from Valanor, intact as they were, but Gandalfs transformation leads one to believe that Illuvitar had some hand in altering the mission and outcome of the Istari's main reason for being in ME.
An arguement can be proposed, that Illuvitar knew of Saruman's betrayal, and granted Gandalf the ability to depose Saruman as leader of the Istari Order. This reminds me of Zuess and the Greek Mythos and of Obi-Wan and his sacrifice at the hands of Darth Vadar. Since the Balrog was also of Maiar order, he would transpose as Darth Vadar.
Both Obi-Wan and Gandalf showed sacrifice as a reason to increase the power of the "force", as we can extrapolate from the texts. Both Gandalf and Obi-Wan returned as more powerful incarnations of themselves. It is interesting to note that the belief systems in both Tolkien and Star Wars is non-descript, alluding to certain Christian parallels, but mostly maintaining a non-sectarian approach. This, in my opinion, brings the reader into the religious thought processes of the author, without actually committing them to a dogma.
Is it the eternal truths of most religious thought that is most clearly drawn out in these works? Are we being pulled into these thought processes because they are true to all sectarian religions, or because they are general enough to reflect our beliefs while remaining non-commital?
However one chooses to view the quasi-religious content of the LoTR, one has to agree that the work "MOVES" people in a most religious way. The history of the Elves also contains a religious thought, whether it is just a prayer to Elbereth, or a discertation of the history of the Elves and how thier immortality, magic, and thought processes, continue on as a legacy of faith.
I keep wandering in Middle-Earth, because my heart is there. I look up at the stars and sing my hymn to Elbereth. I look at a beautiful tree and see Treebeard and the Entwives as shepards. I look at a snow-capped mountain and wonder if cruel Chahadras would let me up there. I walk into a cave and wonder if the roots will show me a Gollum.
There is more than magic in Toilkien...there is religion. And I have bought the dogma and seen the gods. After LoTR I have read Silmarillion, and now I walk in Arda with the Maiar, and I battle Melkor and side with Yavanna, and like Manwe, wish to know the mind of Illuvitar. My soul sings great themes and will not be quiet. And through all the music and noise, my world is born. It has become MY world, and I like it here.
Glor
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Message 5 of 23 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/24/2002 5:31 AM
Glorfindle,
I have to say only, WOW! You have indeed taken the tales to heart, and I applaud you. It is religious, and is so compeling as to make one hope for the Good over Evil theme to be truth, and that Iluvatar in "It's" wisdom has seen to it that the final song shall be sung. Now please don't misunderstand the "It's." Whenever a Creator or Supreme religion takes the stand people seem to war over the gender. I have never followed an ordered pattern of reverence to any one central theme except Physics, Nature and Medicine with Tolkien running an interesting close fourth, but to hear your words excites me to think I am not so mad after all. Tolkien did create a believable and complete Creation Tale that one could embrace as an escapsist alternative. But in his own words it is just a story. Quite the conundrum for me! To facilitate a conscious effort towards an conotation of the worship of Iluvatar with all it's merits, or to remain at bay in the hopes that my simple musings on life and death are acurate.
I'll wait and read more of what you have, for if nothing else you'd make one hell of an Evangelist.
Namarie
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Message 6 of 23 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 7:56 AM
DaleAnn, when you begin your intriguing comments with the line "please do not start the discussion until Sunday", could you stipulate which Sunday you mean? I keep checking my calendar to see whether it's the Sunday past or the Sunday coming, depending on when you made the post.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 7 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:10 AM
Dear Azurite, I posted Megn1's questions and comments for week 2 on the Saturday morning preceeding the Sunday in question. I was in a hurry because my husband wanted to get on Ebay, so I just cut and pasted all of her things as quickly as I could. Later, I realized that 1) there might be confusion about dates and 2) even though Megn1 posted a few days before that I was going to post her questions, some people might think I was the brain behind them.
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Message 8 of 23 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:12 AM
Wizards: I think Tolkien here is playing (as he so often does) with words and meaning. The Men and Hobbits see Gandalf play with fireworks, and apply the term 'wizard' to him. He accepts it, he doesn't care what he is called. They don't need to know he is Maia or Istari, or what the implications of that are.
"Maia" is not a rank, but a type of being, and so can't be earned any more than being an elf or a man is earned.
I think we have clear evidence that a Man can learn, study and practise magic, in the person of the Witch-King of Angmar. To call him the Wizard-King of Angmar would be just as accurate, but less foreboding and effective. By this argument, not all magic is innate. I would argue that Tolkien implies that magic so acquired tends to lead to corruption, perhaps because only the power-hungry would pursue it.
I would argue also that Aragorn practices both kinds of magic, exemplified in his kingly healing skills - he needs both the knowledge of how to do it and what to do it with (i.e., the properties and history of athelas) but it is also the mystical quality of his royalty that makes it effective.
Sometimes the divisions between magic, 'craft' - both in the sense of magic and the sense of craftsmanship - and 'skill' become fused in Tolkien. Knowledge doesn't differentiate.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 9 of 23 in Discussion
Sent: 4/24/2002 10:21 PM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
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Message 10 of 23 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/24/2002 10:25 PM
Thanks, Iarwain, you raised some interesting thoughts:
I have never followed an ordered pattern of reverence to any one central theme except Physics, Nature and Medicine with Tolkien running an interesting close fourth, but to hear your words excites me to think I am not so mad after all.
I think you misunderstand my passion for Tolkien, with a real life belief system. While I am very eclectic in my own real life belief system, it is not so unstable as to take a fictional story and embrace it, “as is”. I can extrapolate many “truths” from Tolkiens creation mythos, but my own system is a hundred times more complicated and very uniquely me.
Azurite, thank you. Your comments broadened my thoughts on the matter of innate magic in Tolkien characters, raising the very nice theme:
I would argue that Tolkien implies that magic so acquired tends to lead to corruption, perhaps because only the power-hungry would pursue it.
I had not thought along those lines before, and I find your ideas very enlightening. Perhaps Tolkien meant to say that only magic that is inherent in the beings created to be magical is correct in it’s nature, and that altering that nature creates an aberration.
Thanks for the comments
Glor
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Message 11 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/25/2002 9:06 PM
Dear Glorfindle,
I love your description of walking in Middle Earth. Although I am not as experienced as you in spending time there, I love the Shire, and Rivendell. There are so many places that I want to know better.
However, I see only one religion creeping through the stories- Christianity. I believe that Tolkien never intended to "let his spiritual nature show" , but so often I see Biblical principles. Gandalf "dying" and returning as a glorified self, immediately after sacrificing himself for the Fellowship. Also, in a sense this sacrifice was for many- because great evil would fall on many in Middle Earth, if the effort had failed. It seems so similiar to Christ dying for all mankind on the Cross- then rising from the dead in a glorified form.
Another point may be on the nature of evil. It seems like each being in Middle Earth is suseptable to evil. In a sense, nobody is perfect. Do you hear a sense of " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? In my opinion, great literature always contains characters who are multidimensional. We are, by nature flawed beings.
Also, we were created in the image of God. We are not God, but we can love and create. Each of us is packaged with the ability to do great things. Some of these great things are only seen by God and are shared as an intimate experience with Him.
Also, Tolkien's evil seems to spring from the desire to control or own something that doesn' t belong to an individual. Christianity is very similiar. Evil is walking away from God's way to live life our own way. We want to deside what is right and wrong rather than following the ways of the one who spoke Creation into being. We turn from the loving author of our life to write our own story- our way.
Even the fact that the wise and powerful could not dispose of the ring. It had to be a Hobbit who had little desire for control. In the Bible and now too- it seems that God moves through the humble and weak best. Paul wrote that in his weaknesses he strength. He performed God's will best when he realized that compared to God he was nothing. He needed God's power. God could do anything by Himself, but He loves us so completely that He includes us in his work.
I see many, many parallels to Biblical ideas. Whenever I see them," I think JRRT- your world view is showing again." I really don't think that he intended to let it show, But each of us is inseparable from our worldview. He writing , to me , is not inspired the way the Bible is, leaves clues to JRRT'S belief system
Sorry to be so long winded, but here is my final comment. In India, TFOR movie has not been well liked ( at least from what I have read on the Web). My theory for this is that a Christian worldview is very different from a Hindu worldview. I spent 2 months in India. The dramas on TV were always very confusing to me.
Thanks, Wen
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Message 12 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/25/2002 11:51 PM
Wen wrote: In India, TFOR movie has not been well liked ( at least from what I have read on the Web). My theory for this is that a Christian worldview is very different from a Hindu worldview. I read that also, but , I read that the movie had been heavily edited, so, no one understood it (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Pagan, or any other religion or Atheist.)
Wen wrote: Christianity is very similiar. Evil is walking away from God's way to live life our own way. We want to deside what is right and wrong rather than following the ways of the one who spoke Creation into being. We turn from the loving author of our life to write our own story- our way. I am being defensive, not offensive with this comment I make about the above, so, please don't take it the wrong way. Christians don't have a monopoly on that sentiment. I think that is why people from other religious faiths see parallels in Tolkien's work.
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Message 13 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/26/2002 12:36 PM
Dear Dale Ann,
I like what you wrote about being defensive rather than offensive. I hope that my messages convey that my goal is to express my opinion, not to win an argument.
The main point of my message was that I do not see things in the same way as Glorfindle. I do not see Tolkien's writings as a religious piece of literature. Also, I do not see all religions as being essentially the same. My viewpoint is quite different from Glorfindle's.I like Tolkien's work because I can see the influence of his faith in his writings. One's worldview effects an individual's writing. If I wrote a story or an essay, you probably could guess some of my life beliefs. I could do the same with your writing.
There are authors who I respect, but I do not fully enjoy because their writing shows a moral relativism. Tolkien's worldview was influenced by his faith. It is near enough to mine, so that I love his work. Correct me, if I am wrong, but it seems that one who believes that all religions are the same would be able to read excellent stories and enjoy all but those that are specifically didactic in nature.
Also, on the issue of the Indian reponse to the LOTR movie, I also read that the movie was heavily editted. It is interesting to note that the viewers are not saying that it was so different from the book that it was not to be enjoyed. They say that it doesn't make sense. The people who can afford to see the movie were most likely educated in English. Why do the comments center around the movie lack of continuity than a difference from the book? This is just speculation, but perhaps they don't feel the same way about the book as we in the west do.
Just some thoughts, Wen
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Message 14 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/26/2002 1:15 PM
Dear Wen, you and I must agree to disagree, then. This is not the forum to discuss differences in our beliefs. But, if you are ever hankering for a debate you are welcome to e-mail me privately, for I do see most religions as the same.
LotR has been on the best seller list in at least some of India's major cities for the past three months. I am sure we are not hearing all the news about LotR that is coming out of India. How many Tolkien novices are there here in the US that complained about the ending? I had a lady start yelling obsenities behind me at one showing. I had to explain alot to my husband. My kids and their friends are still asking questions. There were parts they didn't "get."
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Message 15 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/26/2002 3:07 PM
Dear Dale Ann,
I look forward to discussing my beliefs with you privately. I have no trouble with "agreeing to disagree".
I hope that you note that Glorfindle began to include his religious believes in his message first. Again, we are inseparable from our world views.
I do find it interesting that you did not censor Glorfindle in the manner that you censored me. Personally, I do not think that I crossed over any line. I feel that when our faith relates to the topic, we should be allowed to give our opinion.
Sincerely, Wen
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Message 16 of 23 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire
Sent: 4/26/2002 3:13 PM
as a freak who has studied other religions just for the heck of it, you are right in your seeing the differences in cultural likes and dislikes. atheistic, monotheistic and polytheistic religions are as different as peas and apples. what would be a wonderful story line to someone raised Christian would not be as appealing to someone raised Hindu. has lotr been to China or Japan yet? I want to know how good it did there. most Chinese are either Buddhist or Confucianists.
(i think too much for my own good.)
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Message 17 of 23 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/26/2002 6:56 PM
Calm down all. When religion is discussed, there are bound to be raised tempers and short fuses. It is the nature of the debate. We all find something different in Tolkien, or we would not be individuals. We are EXPLORING, that is the key term, not judging.
I expossed that Tolkien has religious connotations to me, NOT that it WAS my religion.
Granted I am a born again neo-pagan from a Catholic background, but I see pagan ideals in the work, as easily as you may see Christian ones. I feel DaleAnn was correct in pointing that out. But, PLEASE, for the sake of our community, do NOT assume that comments are meant to hurt you or belittle you. Before you make a post in reply to something that bothers you, please e-mail the person privately to see if there is some mis-communication. In almost all instances, this is the case.
Even if the poster is a manager of the site, sending an e-mail to "managers of TR" sends to ALL managers, so we all take part in clearing up any mis-understandings.
Thank you for your consideration in this, and remember we are ALL here to have fun and learn.
Namarie,
Glor
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Message 18 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/27/2002 2:28 AM
Wen, I did not censor you or your beliefs. I censored a continuing debate on religion, here. I started a post, in reply to your message 13. It had all kinds of neat stuff in it about religion. The post had nothing to do with Tolkien. And that was when I knew I needed to move away from this forum and invite you to debate privately. Sorry if you misinterpreted my motive.
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Message 19 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/27/2002 7:14 AM
Lady O, LotR opened in Japan on 3/9 and in China on 4/?. From what I understand it is doing quite well in Japan. The books are on the bestseller list there. I do not have time to search for info on China at the moment.
One of the major themes in Tolkien's writings is Good vs Evil----a universal theme in every just about every culture or religion. I bet you would have a difficult time coming up with a theme in Tolkien that other current cultures could not relate to.
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Message 20 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/27/2002 4:15 PM
Lady o,
Thanks for understanding my point.
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Message 21 of 23 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/1/2002 7:34 PM
Wen,
I, too, find a lot of Christian principles in LotR. (You did a good job with your examples. You could go on and write a book!) That is one of the fascinations Tolkien's writings hold for me. And I see I lot of themes that are common to all people. At least, all of the people I know.
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Message 22 of 23 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 5/2/2002 1:57 PM
Hi all, I forget what the original question was. However, reading this discussion has been fascinating. I don't think that Tolkien was out to either create or espouse a religion. However, it is my understanding that he was setting out to create a mythology. All of the mythologies that I have heard of are attempts to explain how the world works and to espouse moral principles of one form ro another. If I am correct, then it is not surprising that there are religious overtones in his writings. They must be there. Like Wen, I see Christian principles in these works. However, I also recognize some themes from my very slight studies of other mythologies/religions. Even the resurrection is not unique to Christianity. Ancient Egyptian religion has a resurrection myth, that I know of. Also, the early Christians were masters at borrowing from the local pagans, who they were trying to convert. It is no accident that major Christian religious holidays fall so close to the equinoxes and the solstices.
Karen
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Message 23 of 23 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/4/2002 1:41 PM
Sunflowerwoman, Tolkien certainly did borrow from mythology as well as from Christianity. I have a book called Parallel Myths which I am dying to read, as soon as I finish Sil. I have flipped through it and seen some of the Norse mythology we talked about in the B&N class and I believe we have also talked about here. Fascinating to me! To find similarities between Christianity and other myths does not make Christianity any less real for me. God created all and loves all and it is not hard for me to believe that all people have some revelation of God, whether they subscribe to my belief system or another.
Regards to all,
Sparrow
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Message 1 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/20/2002 3:06 AM
Please do not start the discussion until Sunday.
One of the purposes of creation stories is to explain how the world got to be the way it is. Looking particularly at the first three chapters of Quenta Silmarillion, what have you discovered that explains some aspect of the Middle Earth we love… or the world we inhabit?
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Message 2 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/23/2002 9:12 PM
I keep feeling that I am near to an "aha" in The Sil, then I lose the thought.
It is interesting to discover that Gandalf is a Maia.He is a helper to the Vala. This sets him apart from my conception of wizards. In literature, it often seems that wizards are out to control people and situations with magic.Gandalf is not human. Humans cannot become wizards (even if they go to the right school).
Sauron is a fallen Maia.
WEN
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Message 3 of 23 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/23/2002 9:51 PM
Awesome point about a human being unable to learn to be a wizard!
(Tough luck, Mr. Potter )
In M.E. magic something one "has," not something one "works" (IMHO), and therefore it cannot be learned or acquired. It can be practiced and honed, as with any skill a person possesses. But just as a truly tone-deaf person cannot master the art of singing, no matter how much effort is used, so a human being cannot become a wizard.
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Message 4 of 23 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/23/2002 11:15 PM
Tolkiens precepts for magical ability are clearly inbred, and not subject to aquireablility. The Istari are clearly born as Maiar, and there is no indication that others of ANY race are able to attain that rank. The Eldar also seem to have magic ability, but cannot achieve the ability or rank of Maiar. The only difference in the ability of the Istari is demonstrated by Gandalf when he died, and was reborn. They obviously came from Valanor, intact as they were, but Gandalfs transformation leads one to believe that Illuvitar had some hand in altering the mission and outcome of the Istari's main reason for being in ME.
An arguement can be proposed, that Illuvitar knew of Saruman's betrayal, and granted Gandalf the ability to depose Saruman as leader of the Istari Order. This reminds me of Zuess and the Greek Mythos and of Obi-Wan and his sacrifice at the hands of Darth Vadar. Since the Balrog was also of Maiar order, he would transpose as Darth Vadar.
Both Obi-Wan and Gandalf showed sacrifice as a reason to increase the power of the "force", as we can extrapolate from the texts. Both Gandalf and Obi-Wan returned as more powerful incarnations of themselves. It is interesting to note that the belief systems in both Tolkien and Star Wars is non-descript, alluding to certain Christian parallels, but mostly maintaining a non-sectarian approach. This, in my opinion, brings the reader into the religious thought processes of the author, without actually committing them to a dogma.
Is it the eternal truths of most religious thought that is most clearly drawn out in these works? Are we being pulled into these thought processes because they are true to all sectarian religions, or because they are general enough to reflect our beliefs while remaining non-commital?
However one chooses to view the quasi-religious content of the LoTR, one has to agree that the work "MOVES" people in a most religious way. The history of the Elves also contains a religious thought, whether it is just a prayer to Elbereth, or a discertation of the history of the Elves and how thier immortality, magic, and thought processes, continue on as a legacy of faith.
I keep wandering in Middle-Earth, because my heart is there. I look up at the stars and sing my hymn to Elbereth. I look at a beautiful tree and see Treebeard and the Entwives as shepards. I look at a snow-capped mountain and wonder if cruel Chahadras would let me up there. I walk into a cave and wonder if the roots will show me a Gollum.
There is more than magic in Toilkien...there is religion. And I have bought the dogma and seen the gods. After LoTR I have read Silmarillion, and now I walk in Arda with the Maiar, and I battle Melkor and side with Yavanna, and like Manwe, wish to know the mind of Illuvitar. My soul sings great themes and will not be quiet. And through all the music and noise, my world is born. It has become MY world, and I like it here.
Glor
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Message 5 of 23 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 4/24/2002 5:31 AM
Glorfindle,
I have to say only, WOW! You have indeed taken the tales to heart, and I applaud you. It is religious, and is so compeling as to make one hope for the Good over Evil theme to be truth, and that Iluvatar in "It's" wisdom has seen to it that the final song shall be sung. Now please don't misunderstand the "It's." Whenever a Creator or Supreme religion takes the stand people seem to war over the gender. I have never followed an ordered pattern of reverence to any one central theme except Physics, Nature and Medicine with Tolkien running an interesting close fourth, but to hear your words excites me to think I am not so mad after all. Tolkien did create a believable and complete Creation Tale that one could embrace as an escapsist alternative. But in his own words it is just a story. Quite the conundrum for me! To facilitate a conscious effort towards an conotation of the worship of Iluvatar with all it's merits, or to remain at bay in the hopes that my simple musings on life and death are acurate.
I'll wait and read more of what you have, for if nothing else you'd make one hell of an Evangelist.
Namarie
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Message 6 of 23 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 7:56 AM
DaleAnn, when you begin your intriguing comments with the line "please do not start the discussion until Sunday", could you stipulate which Sunday you mean? I keep checking my calendar to see whether it's the Sunday past or the Sunday coming, depending on when you made the post.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 7 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:10 AM
Dear Azurite, I posted Megn1's questions and comments for week 2 on the Saturday morning preceeding the Sunday in question. I was in a hurry because my husband wanted to get on Ebay, so I just cut and pasted all of her things as quickly as I could. Later, I realized that 1) there might be confusion about dates and 2) even though Megn1 posted a few days before that I was going to post her questions, some people might think I was the brain behind them.
Reply
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Message 8 of 23 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/24/2002 8:12 AM
Wizards: I think Tolkien here is playing (as he so often does) with words and meaning. The Men and Hobbits see Gandalf play with fireworks, and apply the term 'wizard' to him. He accepts it, he doesn't care what he is called. They don't need to know he is Maia or Istari, or what the implications of that are.
"Maia" is not a rank, but a type of being, and so can't be earned any more than being an elf or a man is earned.
I think we have clear evidence that a Man can learn, study and practise magic, in the person of the Witch-King of Angmar. To call him the Wizard-King of Angmar would be just as accurate, but less foreboding and effective. By this argument, not all magic is innate. I would argue that Tolkien implies that magic so acquired tends to lead to corruption, perhaps because only the power-hungry would pursue it.
I would argue also that Aragorn practices both kinds of magic, exemplified in his kingly healing skills - he needs both the knowledge of how to do it and what to do it with (i.e., the properties and history of athelas) but it is also the mystical quality of his royalty that makes it effective.
Sometimes the divisions between magic, 'craft' - both in the sense of magic and the sense of craftsmanship - and 'skill' become fused in Tolkien. Knowledge doesn't differentiate.
namaste,
Azurite
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Message 9 of 23 in Discussion
Sent: 4/24/2002 10:21 PM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
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Message 10 of 23 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/24/2002 10:25 PM
Thanks, Iarwain, you raised some interesting thoughts:
I have never followed an ordered pattern of reverence to any one central theme except Physics, Nature and Medicine with Tolkien running an interesting close fourth, but to hear your words excites me to think I am not so mad after all.
I think you misunderstand my passion for Tolkien, with a real life belief system. While I am very eclectic in my own real life belief system, it is not so unstable as to take a fictional story and embrace it, “as is”. I can extrapolate many “truths” from Tolkiens creation mythos, but my own system is a hundred times more complicated and very uniquely me.
Azurite, thank you. Your comments broadened my thoughts on the matter of innate magic in Tolkien characters, raising the very nice theme:
I would argue that Tolkien implies that magic so acquired tends to lead to corruption, perhaps because only the power-hungry would pursue it.
I had not thought along those lines before, and I find your ideas very enlightening. Perhaps Tolkien meant to say that only magic that is inherent in the beings created to be magical is correct in it’s nature, and that altering that nature creates an aberration.
Thanks for the comments
Glor
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Message 11 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/25/2002 9:06 PM
Dear Glorfindle,
I love your description of walking in Middle Earth. Although I am not as experienced as you in spending time there, I love the Shire, and Rivendell. There are so many places that I want to know better.
However, I see only one religion creeping through the stories- Christianity. I believe that Tolkien never intended to "let his spiritual nature show" , but so often I see Biblical principles. Gandalf "dying" and returning as a glorified self, immediately after sacrificing himself for the Fellowship. Also, in a sense this sacrifice was for many- because great evil would fall on many in Middle Earth, if the effort had failed. It seems so similiar to Christ dying for all mankind on the Cross- then rising from the dead in a glorified form.
Another point may be on the nature of evil. It seems like each being in Middle Earth is suseptable to evil. In a sense, nobody is perfect. Do you hear a sense of " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? In my opinion, great literature always contains characters who are multidimensional. We are, by nature flawed beings.
Also, we were created in the image of God. We are not God, but we can love and create. Each of us is packaged with the ability to do great things. Some of these great things are only seen by God and are shared as an intimate experience with Him.
Also, Tolkien's evil seems to spring from the desire to control or own something that doesn' t belong to an individual. Christianity is very similiar. Evil is walking away from God's way to live life our own way. We want to deside what is right and wrong rather than following the ways of the one who spoke Creation into being. We turn from the loving author of our life to write our own story- our way.
Even the fact that the wise and powerful could not dispose of the ring. It had to be a Hobbit who had little desire for control. In the Bible and now too- it seems that God moves through the humble and weak best. Paul wrote that in his weaknesses he strength. He performed God's will best when he realized that compared to God he was nothing. He needed God's power. God could do anything by Himself, but He loves us so completely that He includes us in his work.
I see many, many parallels to Biblical ideas. Whenever I see them," I think JRRT- your world view is showing again." I really don't think that he intended to let it show, But each of us is inseparable from our worldview. He writing , to me , is not inspired the way the Bible is, leaves clues to JRRT'S belief system
Sorry to be so long winded, but here is my final comment. In India, TFOR movie has not been well liked ( at least from what I have read on the Web). My theory for this is that a Christian worldview is very different from a Hindu worldview. I spent 2 months in India. The dramas on TV were always very confusing to me.
Thanks, Wen
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Message 12 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/25/2002 11:51 PM
Wen wrote: In India, TFOR movie has not been well liked ( at least from what I have read on the Web). My theory for this is that a Christian worldview is very different from a Hindu worldview. I read that also, but , I read that the movie had been heavily edited, so, no one understood it (whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Pagan, or any other religion or Atheist.)
Wen wrote: Christianity is very similiar. Evil is walking away from God's way to live life our own way. We want to deside what is right and wrong rather than following the ways of the one who spoke Creation into being. We turn from the loving author of our life to write our own story- our way. I am being defensive, not offensive with this comment I make about the above, so, please don't take it the wrong way. Christians don't have a monopoly on that sentiment. I think that is why people from other religious faiths see parallels in Tolkien's work.
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Message 13 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/26/2002 12:36 PM
Dear Dale Ann,
I like what you wrote about being defensive rather than offensive. I hope that my messages convey that my goal is to express my opinion, not to win an argument.
The main point of my message was that I do not see things in the same way as Glorfindle. I do not see Tolkien's writings as a religious piece of literature. Also, I do not see all religions as being essentially the same. My viewpoint is quite different from Glorfindle's.I like Tolkien's work because I can see the influence of his faith in his writings. One's worldview effects an individual's writing. If I wrote a story or an essay, you probably could guess some of my life beliefs. I could do the same with your writing.
There are authors who I respect, but I do not fully enjoy because their writing shows a moral relativism. Tolkien's worldview was influenced by his faith. It is near enough to mine, so that I love his work. Correct me, if I am wrong, but it seems that one who believes that all religions are the same would be able to read excellent stories and enjoy all but those that are specifically didactic in nature.
Also, on the issue of the Indian reponse to the LOTR movie, I also read that the movie was heavily editted. It is interesting to note that the viewers are not saying that it was so different from the book that it was not to be enjoyed. They say that it doesn't make sense. The people who can afford to see the movie were most likely educated in English. Why do the comments center around the movie lack of continuity than a difference from the book? This is just speculation, but perhaps they don't feel the same way about the book as we in the west do.
Just some thoughts, Wen
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Message 14 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/26/2002 1:15 PM
Dear Wen, you and I must agree to disagree, then. This is not the forum to discuss differences in our beliefs. But, if you are ever hankering for a debate you are welcome to e-mail me privately, for I do see most religions as the same.
LotR has been on the best seller list in at least some of India's major cities for the past three months. I am sure we are not hearing all the news about LotR that is coming out of India. How many Tolkien novices are there here in the US that complained about the ending? I had a lady start yelling obsenities behind me at one showing. I had to explain alot to my husband. My kids and their friends are still asking questions. There were parts they didn't "get."
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Message 15 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/26/2002 3:07 PM
Dear Dale Ann,
I look forward to discussing my beliefs with you privately. I have no trouble with "agreeing to disagree".
I hope that you note that Glorfindle began to include his religious believes in his message first. Again, we are inseparable from our world views.
I do find it interesting that you did not censor Glorfindle in the manner that you censored me. Personally, I do not think that I crossed over any line. I feel that when our faith relates to the topic, we should be allowed to give our opinion.
Sincerely, Wen
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Message 16 of 23 in Discussion
From: Lady_Oiolaire
Sent: 4/26/2002 3:13 PM
as a freak who has studied other religions just for the heck of it, you are right in your seeing the differences in cultural likes and dislikes. atheistic, monotheistic and polytheistic religions are as different as peas and apples. what would be a wonderful story line to someone raised Christian would not be as appealing to someone raised Hindu. has lotr been to China or Japan yet? I want to know how good it did there. most Chinese are either Buddhist or Confucianists.
(i think too much for my own good.)
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Message 17 of 23 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/26/2002 6:56 PM
Calm down all. When religion is discussed, there are bound to be raised tempers and short fuses. It is the nature of the debate. We all find something different in Tolkien, or we would not be individuals. We are EXPLORING, that is the key term, not judging.
I expossed that Tolkien has religious connotations to me, NOT that it WAS my religion.
Granted I am a born again neo-pagan from a Catholic background, but I see pagan ideals in the work, as easily as you may see Christian ones. I feel DaleAnn was correct in pointing that out. But, PLEASE, for the sake of our community, do NOT assume that comments are meant to hurt you or belittle you. Before you make a post in reply to something that bothers you, please e-mail the person privately to see if there is some mis-communication. In almost all instances, this is the case.
Even if the poster is a manager of the site, sending an e-mail to "managers of TR" sends to ALL managers, so we all take part in clearing up any mis-understandings.
Thank you for your consideration in this, and remember we are ALL here to have fun and learn.
Namarie,
Glor
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Message 18 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/27/2002 2:28 AM
Wen, I did not censor you or your beliefs. I censored a continuing debate on religion, here. I started a post, in reply to your message 13. It had all kinds of neat stuff in it about religion. The post had nothing to do with Tolkien. And that was when I knew I needed to move away from this forum and invite you to debate privately. Sorry if you misinterpreted my motive.
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Message 19 of 23 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 4/27/2002 7:14 AM
Lady O, LotR opened in Japan on 3/9 and in China on 4/?. From what I understand it is doing quite well in Japan. The books are on the bestseller list there. I do not have time to search for info on China at the moment.
One of the major themes in Tolkien's writings is Good vs Evil----a universal theme in every just about every culture or religion. I bet you would have a difficult time coming up with a theme in Tolkien that other current cultures could not relate to.
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Message 20 of 23 in Discussion
From: Pherquarewen
Sent: 4/27/2002 4:15 PM
Lady o,
Thanks for understanding my point.
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Message 21 of 23 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/1/2002 7:34 PM
Wen,
I, too, find a lot of Christian principles in LotR. (You did a good job with your examples. You could go on and write a book!) That is one of the fascinations Tolkien's writings hold for me. And I see I lot of themes that are common to all people. At least, all of the people I know.
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Message 22 of 23 in Discussion
From: Sunflowerwoman
Sent: 5/2/2002 1:57 PM
Hi all, I forget what the original question was. However, reading this discussion has been fascinating. I don't think that Tolkien was out to either create or espouse a religion. However, it is my understanding that he was setting out to create a mythology. All of the mythologies that I have heard of are attempts to explain how the world works and to espouse moral principles of one form ro another. If I am correct, then it is not surprising that there are religious overtones in his writings. They must be there. Like Wen, I see Christian principles in these works. However, I also recognize some themes from my very slight studies of other mythologies/religions. Even the resurrection is not unique to Christianity. Ancient Egyptian religion has a resurrection myth, that I know of. Also, the early Christians were masters at borrowing from the local pagans, who they were trying to convert. It is no accident that major Christian religious holidays fall so close to the equinoxes and the solstices.
Karen
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Message 23 of 23 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/4/2002 1:41 PM
Sunflowerwoman, Tolkien certainly did borrow from mythology as well as from Christianity. I have a book called Parallel Myths which I am dying to read, as soon as I finish Sil. I have flipped through it and seen some of the Norse mythology we talked about in the B&N class and I believe we have also talked about here. Fascinating to me! To find similarities between Christianity and other myths does not make Christianity any less real for me. God created all and loves all and it is not hard for me to believe that all people have some revelation of God, whether they subscribe to my belief system or another.
Regards to all,
Sparrow