Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 9:43:43 GMT -6
Melkor/Sauron--What Motivated Them?
________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:39 PM
This is part of the Silmarillion Chat from 4/30/02 that we had late in the evening. We brought up some interesting questions and I thought I would post the chat conversation here so none of you would have to wade through the miles of pages of the actual Chat Document to find it! So here goes, and I will break it up into smaller parts.
<DIR>
megn1 : We do seem to keep coming back to Melkor, don't we
Olórië : yes!
megn1 : Maybe HE is the hero of Sil
megn1 : LOL
Olórië : of course!
Stormrider : Well....he is an interesting topic.....how did Melkor corrupt Sauron?
megn1 : I don't think we ever get told that
Stormrider : I know.....I think Sauron was just as bad as Melkor and it was easy to influence him
ROBEDMERLIN : BY OFFERING SAURON WHAT HE HAD FOUND HIMSELF......
Olórië : I'm still pondering an Iluvatar with flaws.
ROBEDMERLIN : POWER - THE ULTIMATE DRUG
Soleil : *** ...can I pass the gauntlet?
Stormrider : Did Melkor offer it to Sauron? Would he really share with him? Do you thinnk?
<DIR> <DIR>
8megn1 has left the conversation.
</DIR></DIR>
ROBEDMERLIN : NOT SO MUCH AN OFFER AS AN ILLUSION OF AN OFFER
ROBEDMERLIN : MELKOR HAD WHAT SAURON WANTED
Stormrider : He tricked him then?
Olórië : Soleil, I'll email it to you.
<DIR> <DIR>
8megn1 has joined the conversation.
</DIR></DIR>
megn1 : server trouble - I'm back
Stormrider : Sauron used Melkor and bided his time to take over for himself
Stormrider : My theory
megn1 : what makes you say that?
ROBEDMERLIN : NOT SO MUCH A TRICK AS THE FACT THAT MELKOR LET HIM SEE WHAT HE WANTED HIM TO SEE
Soleil : thank you so much, Olorie...good night...I've really enjoyed tonight
megn1 : good night
Olórië : good night -- sweet dreams!
</DIR>
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:42 PM
<DIR>
Stormrider : We were talking about Melkor offering Sauron the illusion tricking him by not really wanting to share it with him
<DIR> <DIR>
8Soleil has left the conversation.
</DIR></DIR>
megn1 : Which illusion?
ROBEDMERLIN : YES AND MELKOR'S BAIT WAS POWER , OR THE ILLUSION THEREOF
Stormrider : How good the evil side was?!?!
Stormrider : How he could control everyone his way
Stormrider : Get them to do everything he wanted them to
ROBEDMERLIN : HE DIDN'T NEED TO CONTROL THEM..
megn1 : Sauron did have a lot of power, and did control many beings
ROBEDMERLIN : ONCE THE POWER GOT INTO THEM AND THE EVIL THAT CAME WITH IT
Stormrider : Control those who weren't willing to be under him
Stormrider : He wanted to control them didn't he
ROBEDMERLIN : THEY CORRUPTED THEMSELVES AND WENT ALONG WILLINGLY
megn1 : Was that what Sauron wanted? Control?
Stormrider : He wanted to mold everything to his way of thinking
Stormrider : That is the idea I got out of LOTR
ROBEDMERLIN : TRUE..
megn1 : That's certainly what Saruman wants...
megn1 : But what is the way of thinking that Sauron wants to mold people into?
Stormrider : Then he could make everything evil
ROBEDMERLIN : TROUBLE WAS EVEN SAURON ANSWER TO A "HIGHER POWER" , A MORE POTENT FORM OF EVIL
megn1 : I've never really considered this question before: what was Sauron trying to accomplish?
megn1 : It's an interesting thought
Stormrider : Perhaps he was not happy being a servant of Melkor either...and wanted him out of the way so he could take over.
Stormrider : So he did when the opportunity was there....eventually
Stormrider : He wanted to bind all the other ring holders to him with his ring.....what would he want them to do?
megn1 : He certainly did take over
Olórië : Megn, I do think it's control. For purely ego-driven beings like Sauron, that is the only form of flattery they can trust.
megn1 : O.k., I can accept that
Olórië : They can never be sure that someone likes/appreciates/respects them unless that person is under control.
</DIR>
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider Sent: 5/11/2002 9:43 PM
<DIR>
Stormrider : Ok...once you control everything....what do you do with it? Turn everything evil? Then what challenge is there left if everything is exactly how you want it?
Stormrider : But do they really like/appreciate/respect you truly if they are under your control?
Olórië : I don't think they see that far in any kind of realistic fashion.
megn1 : I don't think he'd want everything to be evil - it would be harder to control
Stormrider : So maybe he likes to torchure the good things and ruin them for fun?
Olórië : Storm, it doesn't matter then. You control 'em, you don't need affection or respect.
megn1 : It seems to me that Melkor wanted to destroy the work of the Valar - that was his main goal
Olórië : Yes, out of spite.
Olórië : My feeling.
Stormrider : True...and he wanted to make it his way
megn1 : And to do something unique to himself
Olórië : Right. Also ego-driven.
megn1 : He wanted to create, not just sub-create
Stormrider : So what would he have done on his own if he was the only one around to create things?
Olórië : But he couldn't. And that is the tragedy of Melkor.
megn1 : Great question!
megn1 : Would he have made something beautiful?
megn1 : I think it would have been useful, at least
Stormrider : Would he create beautiful things or couldn't he see beauty?
megn1 : He despised the beauty that came from others
megn1 : even Iluvatar
megn1 : So is Sauron simply continuing his mission?
Stormrider : So maybe if he made beauty of his own...it could still be beautiful!
megn1 : Destroying all beauty and joy created by others?
Stormrider : Then starting over with his own vision
Olórië : That's really interesting to ponder...Melkor's idea of beauty.
Stormrider : I wonder what it would be like
megn1 : He liked discord
megn1 : twelve-tone music
megn1 : LOL
Olórië : teehee!
Olórië : but did he like discord just to be contrary?
Stormrider : But is that only because everything he did was discordant to everything else?
megn1 : Because it differed from the harmony of others?
Olórië : That's really a good question you had, Storm.
megn1 : What do you suppose he has done in the void?
megn1 : Has he been able to create anything there?
Stormrider : Thanks....I amazed myself with that one....just off the top of my head, too!
megn1 : Will we finally see Melkor's vision of beauty?
Stormrider : Can he do anything to the Void?
megn1 : Probably not
megn1 : The imperishable fire isn't there
Olórië : is there anything in the void?
</DIR>
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:44 PM
<DIR>
megn1 : So I'm still wondering about Sauron's motivation
Stormrider : Me, too. I am really curious about him
ROBEDMERLIN : THAT'S WHY I GOT RID OF AOL..LOL
Olórië : You don't think he was the same kind of mind as Melkor?
Stormrider : I'm very tempted to
megn1 : He's Melkor's follower, but what's in it for him?
megn1 : Power, but for what? He really just has power to destroy
Stormrider : Probably very similar....because he had to like Melkor's way of thinking better than Aules or the other Valar
Olórië : Ultimately, Melkor's job, as it were.
megn1 : He gets Melkor's job
megn1 : Have you ever considered that the war of the ring was a war among stewards? Or second-in-commands?
Olórië : Oh, good one.
Stormrider : But he didn't know he was going to get the job.....maybe he was gambling with the chance that the Valar would eventually get rid of Melkor and then he could take over.
megn1 : Gandalf, a Maiar, is set up as the enemy of Sauron, a Maiar
Stormrider : Interesting thought!
megn1 : Did he actually want Melkor's job, or would he have been content to work for him?
megn1 : There is a time when Gandalf says to Denethor "I am a steward also, did you not know that?" One of my favorite lines
Stormrider : MAybe he was learning from him as he learned from Aule and planned to make use of what he learned later on.
Stormrider : Just like he made use of the knowledge from Aule
Olórië : I love that line, too. I don't think Sauron would ever have been content if he thought he couldn't ultimately replace Melkor.
Stormrider : That is a good line.
Stormrider : I read in one of the links that Sauron used different technigues in fighting his enemy than Melkor used.
Stormrider : I can't remember the link....it was one of DaleAnn's in our links section.
Olórië : About power, and the power to destroy -- that's all evil ever has. But it never stops it from wishing for ever more power.
Stormrider : Sauron stayed more in the background and allowed others to do the dirty work....while Melkor did that but also went out himself.
Olórië : If that makes sense.
Stormrider : In LOTR, the Nazgul go out, the Voice of Sauron, goes out, but not Sauron himself
Olórië : So Sauron was sneakier? Or smarter?
megn1 : Sauron used to go out himself
Stormrider : There is quite a bit of battle and strategy techniques in that link....I will have to find it again
megn1 : Prior to the destruction of Numenor
Stormrider : But wasn't that as Melkor's servant?
megn1 : No, he went to Numenor
megn1 : Though it may have been as a prisoner at first
Stormrider : Or before he had any power....and he fooledmany with his "good" image
<DIR> <DIR>
8Popo has joined the conversation.
8Popo is away.
</DIR></DIR>
Stormrider : Hi Popo...good to see you here!
<DIR> <DIR>
8Popo has returned.
</DIR></DIR>
Stormrider : Hi Popo....good to see you here.
Olórië : Do you think evil considers "creation" as the destruction of that which good has created?
Popo : Hi! Storm. Whew! I misclicked but since I'm here - how are you all doing?
Stormrider : We are deep in discussion on Melkor and Sauron
Stormrider : Whew!
Olórië : Hi Popo
megn1 : Hi Popo
megn1 : Well, the latest installment of "Adventure in ME" implies that evil sees good just as good sees evil
Popo : I'm JUST beginning Tolkien. Like the first "The Hobbit" reading. You may well ask what planet I've been living in...LOL
Stormrider : LOL!
Olórië : Megn, how is that?
Stormrider : Better late than never! PoPo
Stormrider : This may be a little overwhelming for you but hang in there
Olórië : Popo, do I remember you saying you read The Hobbit in Spanish?
Popo : Yes, thank you Storm. And I think you're all marvelous. Learning a lot! Off to check messages now. Bye!
megn1 : well, there's that whole bit about the orc thinking that the people are mean and eat foul food, etc
Stormrider : How the Orcs see the good guys versus how we see them.
Stormrider : bye
Olórië : bye, Popo
Olórië : Thanks for stopping by
megn1 : bye PoPo
</DIR>
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:48 PM
Well....there it is! If anyone else has some ideas on the topics we discussed, please jump in and help us out!
Stormrider
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 10:07 PM
The link that I mentioned in the chat about Sauron's Strategies is from : www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/Tolkien
The articles that I read were:
Sauron Strategies: One war to win them all, except.....
and Sauron Strategies: Footsteps into failure
They are quite lengthy and in depth.
Stormrider
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 8 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 5/12/2002 4:17 PM
Stormrider, I don't want to give too much away, yet, because we haven't gotten to the point in Sil and because Letter #131 is one of the first things I'd like for us to discuss in the next syllabus. What I will say from Tolkien's Letter is that Sauron was "perverted to the service of the Enemy." So, he started out as a good Maiar.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/13/2002 6:10 AM
DaleAnn:
Yes, I knew Sauron started out under Aulë and then was corrupted. I just thought some of the comments and questions we brought up during chat were pretty interesting and maybe some of us had a few further comments to make.
Stormrider
________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:39 PM
This is part of the Silmarillion Chat from 4/30/02 that we had late in the evening. We brought up some interesting questions and I thought I would post the chat conversation here so none of you would have to wade through the miles of pages of the actual Chat Document to find it! So here goes, and I will break it up into smaller parts.
<DIR>
megn1 : We do seem to keep coming back to Melkor, don't we
Olórië : yes!
megn1 : Maybe HE is the hero of Sil
megn1 : LOL
Olórië : of course!
Stormrider : Well....he is an interesting topic.....how did Melkor corrupt Sauron?
megn1 : I don't think we ever get told that
Stormrider : I know.....I think Sauron was just as bad as Melkor and it was easy to influence him
ROBEDMERLIN : BY OFFERING SAURON WHAT HE HAD FOUND HIMSELF......
Olórië : I'm still pondering an Iluvatar with flaws.
ROBEDMERLIN : POWER - THE ULTIMATE DRUG
Soleil : *** ...can I pass the gauntlet?
Stormrider : Did Melkor offer it to Sauron? Would he really share with him? Do you thinnk?
<DIR> <DIR>
8megn1 has left the conversation.
</DIR></DIR>
ROBEDMERLIN : NOT SO MUCH AN OFFER AS AN ILLUSION OF AN OFFER
ROBEDMERLIN : MELKOR HAD WHAT SAURON WANTED
Stormrider : He tricked him then?
Olórië : Soleil, I'll email it to you.
<DIR> <DIR>
8megn1 has joined the conversation.
</DIR></DIR>
megn1 : server trouble - I'm back
Stormrider : Sauron used Melkor and bided his time to take over for himself
Stormrider : My theory
megn1 : what makes you say that?
ROBEDMERLIN : NOT SO MUCH A TRICK AS THE FACT THAT MELKOR LET HIM SEE WHAT HE WANTED HIM TO SEE
Soleil : thank you so much, Olorie...good night...I've really enjoyed tonight
megn1 : good night
Olórië : good night -- sweet dreams!
</DIR>
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:42 PM
<DIR>
Stormrider : We were talking about Melkor offering Sauron the illusion tricking him by not really wanting to share it with him
<DIR> <DIR>
8Soleil has left the conversation.
</DIR></DIR>
megn1 : Which illusion?
ROBEDMERLIN : YES AND MELKOR'S BAIT WAS POWER , OR THE ILLUSION THEREOF
Stormrider : How good the evil side was?!?!
Stormrider : How he could control everyone his way
Stormrider : Get them to do everything he wanted them to
ROBEDMERLIN : HE DIDN'T NEED TO CONTROL THEM..
megn1 : Sauron did have a lot of power, and did control many beings
ROBEDMERLIN : ONCE THE POWER GOT INTO THEM AND THE EVIL THAT CAME WITH IT
Stormrider : Control those who weren't willing to be under him
Stormrider : He wanted to control them didn't he
ROBEDMERLIN : THEY CORRUPTED THEMSELVES AND WENT ALONG WILLINGLY
megn1 : Was that what Sauron wanted? Control?
Stormrider : He wanted to mold everything to his way of thinking
Stormrider : That is the idea I got out of LOTR
ROBEDMERLIN : TRUE..
megn1 : That's certainly what Saruman wants...
megn1 : But what is the way of thinking that Sauron wants to mold people into?
Stormrider : Then he could make everything evil
ROBEDMERLIN : TROUBLE WAS EVEN SAURON ANSWER TO A "HIGHER POWER" , A MORE POTENT FORM OF EVIL
megn1 : I've never really considered this question before: what was Sauron trying to accomplish?
megn1 : It's an interesting thought
Stormrider : Perhaps he was not happy being a servant of Melkor either...and wanted him out of the way so he could take over.
Stormrider : So he did when the opportunity was there....eventually
Stormrider : He wanted to bind all the other ring holders to him with his ring.....what would he want them to do?
megn1 : He certainly did take over
Olórië : Megn, I do think it's control. For purely ego-driven beings like Sauron, that is the only form of flattery they can trust.
megn1 : O.k., I can accept that
Olórië : They can never be sure that someone likes/appreciates/respects them unless that person is under control.
</DIR>
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider Sent: 5/11/2002 9:43 PM
<DIR>
Stormrider : Ok...once you control everything....what do you do with it? Turn everything evil? Then what challenge is there left if everything is exactly how you want it?
Stormrider : But do they really like/appreciate/respect you truly if they are under your control?
Olórië : I don't think they see that far in any kind of realistic fashion.
megn1 : I don't think he'd want everything to be evil - it would be harder to control
Stormrider : So maybe he likes to torchure the good things and ruin them for fun?
Olórië : Storm, it doesn't matter then. You control 'em, you don't need affection or respect.
megn1 : It seems to me that Melkor wanted to destroy the work of the Valar - that was his main goal
Olórië : Yes, out of spite.
Olórië : My feeling.
Stormrider : True...and he wanted to make it his way
megn1 : And to do something unique to himself
Olórië : Right. Also ego-driven.
megn1 : He wanted to create, not just sub-create
Stormrider : So what would he have done on his own if he was the only one around to create things?
Olórië : But he couldn't. And that is the tragedy of Melkor.
megn1 : Great question!
megn1 : Would he have made something beautiful?
megn1 : I think it would have been useful, at least
Stormrider : Would he create beautiful things or couldn't he see beauty?
megn1 : He despised the beauty that came from others
megn1 : even Iluvatar
megn1 : So is Sauron simply continuing his mission?
Stormrider : So maybe if he made beauty of his own...it could still be beautiful!
megn1 : Destroying all beauty and joy created by others?
Stormrider : Then starting over with his own vision
Olórië : That's really interesting to ponder...Melkor's idea of beauty.
Stormrider : I wonder what it would be like
megn1 : He liked discord
megn1 : twelve-tone music
megn1 : LOL
Olórië : teehee!
Olórië : but did he like discord just to be contrary?
Stormrider : But is that only because everything he did was discordant to everything else?
megn1 : Because it differed from the harmony of others?
Olórië : That's really a good question you had, Storm.
megn1 : What do you suppose he has done in the void?
megn1 : Has he been able to create anything there?
Stormrider : Thanks....I amazed myself with that one....just off the top of my head, too!
megn1 : Will we finally see Melkor's vision of beauty?
Stormrider : Can he do anything to the Void?
megn1 : Probably not
megn1 : The imperishable fire isn't there
Olórië : is there anything in the void?
</DIR>
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:44 PM
<DIR>
megn1 : So I'm still wondering about Sauron's motivation
Stormrider : Me, too. I am really curious about him
ROBEDMERLIN : THAT'S WHY I GOT RID OF AOL..LOL
Olórië : You don't think he was the same kind of mind as Melkor?
Stormrider : I'm very tempted to
megn1 : He's Melkor's follower, but what's in it for him?
megn1 : Power, but for what? He really just has power to destroy
Stormrider : Probably very similar....because he had to like Melkor's way of thinking better than Aules or the other Valar
Olórië : Ultimately, Melkor's job, as it were.
megn1 : He gets Melkor's job
megn1 : Have you ever considered that the war of the ring was a war among stewards? Or second-in-commands?
Olórië : Oh, good one.
Stormrider : But he didn't know he was going to get the job.....maybe he was gambling with the chance that the Valar would eventually get rid of Melkor and then he could take over.
megn1 : Gandalf, a Maiar, is set up as the enemy of Sauron, a Maiar
Stormrider : Interesting thought!
megn1 : Did he actually want Melkor's job, or would he have been content to work for him?
megn1 : There is a time when Gandalf says to Denethor "I am a steward also, did you not know that?" One of my favorite lines
Stormrider : MAybe he was learning from him as he learned from Aule and planned to make use of what he learned later on.
Stormrider : Just like he made use of the knowledge from Aule
Olórië : I love that line, too. I don't think Sauron would ever have been content if he thought he couldn't ultimately replace Melkor.
Stormrider : That is a good line.
Stormrider : I read in one of the links that Sauron used different technigues in fighting his enemy than Melkor used.
Stormrider : I can't remember the link....it was one of DaleAnn's in our links section.
Olórië : About power, and the power to destroy -- that's all evil ever has. But it never stops it from wishing for ever more power.
Stormrider : Sauron stayed more in the background and allowed others to do the dirty work....while Melkor did that but also went out himself.
Olórië : If that makes sense.
Stormrider : In LOTR, the Nazgul go out, the Voice of Sauron, goes out, but not Sauron himself
Olórië : So Sauron was sneakier? Or smarter?
megn1 : Sauron used to go out himself
Stormrider : There is quite a bit of battle and strategy techniques in that link....I will have to find it again
megn1 : Prior to the destruction of Numenor
Stormrider : But wasn't that as Melkor's servant?
megn1 : No, he went to Numenor
megn1 : Though it may have been as a prisoner at first
Stormrider : Or before he had any power....and he fooledmany with his "good" image
<DIR> <DIR>
8Popo has joined the conversation.
8Popo is away.
</DIR></DIR>
Stormrider : Hi Popo...good to see you here!
<DIR> <DIR>
8Popo has returned.
</DIR></DIR>
Stormrider : Hi Popo....good to see you here.
Olórië : Do you think evil considers "creation" as the destruction of that which good has created?
Popo : Hi! Storm. Whew! I misclicked but since I'm here - how are you all doing?
Stormrider : We are deep in discussion on Melkor and Sauron
Stormrider : Whew!
Olórië : Hi Popo
megn1 : Hi Popo
megn1 : Well, the latest installment of "Adventure in ME" implies that evil sees good just as good sees evil
Popo : I'm JUST beginning Tolkien. Like the first "The Hobbit" reading. You may well ask what planet I've been living in...LOL
Stormrider : LOL!
Olórië : Megn, how is that?
Stormrider : Better late than never! PoPo
Stormrider : This may be a little overwhelming for you but hang in there
Olórië : Popo, do I remember you saying you read The Hobbit in Spanish?
Popo : Yes, thank you Storm. And I think you're all marvelous. Learning a lot! Off to check messages now. Bye!
megn1 : well, there's that whole bit about the orc thinking that the people are mean and eat foul food, etc
Stormrider : How the Orcs see the good guys versus how we see them.
Stormrider : bye
Olórië : bye, Popo
Olórië : Thanks for stopping by
megn1 : bye PoPo
</DIR>
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 9:48 PM
Well....there it is! If anyone else has some ideas on the topics we discussed, please jump in and help us out!
Stormrider
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/11/2002 10:07 PM
The link that I mentioned in the chat about Sauron's Strategies is from : www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/Tolkien
The articles that I read were:
Sauron Strategies: One war to win them all, except.....
and Sauron Strategies: Footsteps into failure
They are quite lengthy and in depth.
Stormrider
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 8 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 5/12/2002 4:17 PM
Stormrider, I don't want to give too much away, yet, because we haven't gotten to the point in Sil and because Letter #131 is one of the first things I'd like for us to discuss in the next syllabus. What I will say from Tolkien's Letter is that Sauron was "perverted to the service of the Enemy." So, he started out as a good Maiar.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 8 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 5/13/2002 6:10 AM
DaleAnn:
Yes, I knew Sauron started out under Aulë and then was corrupted. I just thought some of the comments and questions we brought up during chat were pretty interesting and maybe some of us had a few further comments to make.
Stormrider