Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 10:54:21 GMT -6
Ainur = Valar ??
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Message 1 of 26 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/14/2002 12:01 PM
The Ainulindalë mentions Melkor, Manwë, Aulë, and Ulmo were the ones who made the music. Did any of the other Valar make music and help in the creation? Were all the Valar Ainurs or just those four that are mentioned?
Stormrider
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Message 2 of 26 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/14/2002 12:52 PM
As I understand it, many (probably all) of the Ainur participated in the symphony which created the universe. Of this group, fifteen who decided to go and live in Arda are called the Valar. Many others from among the Ainur (an unpsecified number) went with them and were called the Maiar, but they weren't the leaders of the project - they were there to serve and suppert the Valar. Note: Ainu is the singular, Ainur is plural; Vala and Maia are the singular, Valar and Maiar are plurals.
My conclusion then is that yes, all the Valar participated in the musical creation of Arda; and yes, all of the Valar are Ainur. (Though not all the Ainur were Valar, since others stayed outside the realm of Eä with Ilúvatar.)
This is how the Encylopedia of Arda describes the Ainur: "The primordial spirits, who existed with Ilúvatar, and with Him created the world through the Music of the Ainur. After the creation of Arda, many of the Ainur descended into it to guide and order its growth; of these there were fifteen more powerful than the rest. Fourteen of these great Ainur became the Valar".
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Message 3 of 26 in Discussion
From: CamelliaDanderfluff
Sent: 4/14/2002 12:56 PM
Stormrider; Working backwards from Manwe's description as, "...chief instrument of second theme against discord", I understood that the Ainar were instruments of the orchestra harmonizing in the music Earlier, their voices "like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words..." only seems to strengthen that view. Maybe too simplistic, but I do believe thay all were involved in the fabric of the theme.
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Message 4 of 26 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/14/2002 3:28 PM
What has been said here is correct. The Valar are a subset of the Ainur.
Looking at the first page of Ainulindale, we learn that each of the Ainur "comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came" Iluvatar "called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme. When Iluvatar invites them to sing, he says (to all the Ainur) "ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will."
That last phrase implies that each individual Ainur was free to sit out the great music. Nevertheless, all were invited to participate, and we are not told that any refused. So all the Ainur (including those who were later to become the Valar and the Maiar) particpated in that music.
Now, to take off in a different direction:
Azurite - you quoted the encyclopedia of Arda as saying "The primordial spirits, who existed with Ilúvatar, and with Him created the world through the Music of the Ainur." That definition implies that it was the music which brought Ea into being. That isn't what happened. The music was an idea, a vision, a plan, a possibility... Without the command of Iluvatar it never would have been anything more. Iluvatar alone created the universe, and he did it when he proclaimed "Ea!"
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Message 5 of 26 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/14/2002 3:35 PM
The four Ainur who are mentioned must have been the "big guns" and had a hand in creating the major parts of Ea such as the earth, the waters, the air, etc. The other Ainur helped them and added their touches, too.
Thank you all for helping me get this straight.
Stormrider
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Message 6 of 26 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/14/2002 6:57 PM
There are two themes in the Valaquenta that intrigue me most. Free Will and The Mind of Illuvitar.
It is easy to see the parallels in JRRT's creation mythos and Chrisitianity's. Tolkien's Illuvitar(God) created the Ainur(Angels) some of which were Archangels(the higher Ainur). One Ainur(Lucifer) wanted to create his own music. There was a symphony resulting in a chaotic cacaphony (battle).
An interesting parallel in both, both the Ainur and the Archangels apparently had free will. And it could be concluded that both supreme dieties became disenchanted with how there creation of the HIGHER ORDER of beings with free will turned out. Both subsequently created humans (and in the case of JT, another half-way race, the Elves). Also with free will.
The Ainur were created and given the command to play music that Illuvitar set forth. They began to play, but they had free will when playing. It seems Illuvitar wanted their minds to understand his, by allowing them to see the interconnections of their harmonies with each other, and that by understanding this connection, they understand the whole of Illuvitar's mind, through their own free will to do so.
This did not come into being however, because one Ainur(Melkor) took his free will and decided to make his own music themes, after becoming enamored of his own ability to create. But not being Illuvitar, he was thwarted by the fact that his creations had not the power of his creator.
Illuvitar got mad, and if I remember correctly, also gave him another chance, and he did it again. I think this could be a kind of reason, that would make a supreme deity, (Illuvitar/God) try to educate the Ainur in why his themes of harmony were the way to his mind, by then creating a sub-world, (Arda) where they were in fact the creators (power) that would shape the world by thier own interactions (harmnonies), and thus finally understand the mind of Illuvitar.
For in understanding the mind of Illuvitar, you would become one with him. In a finite beings limited thought processes, what would a GOD want after all? The only satisfying thought I could entertain, would be to create a being of free will that would finally understand the God's mind and become as one, giving the God a sense of togetherness instead of aloneness. Any supreme diety could create anything, BUT another one of himself.
Sorry if I ramble, but I have found Tolkiens creation mythos much richer and satisfying, than many of the "actual" religious genisies that are extant today. It seems to explore the very 'nature' of creationism, rather then blindly formulating a backstory to placate the ignorant masses.
Glor
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Message 7 of 26 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/14/2002 10:11 PM
I tend to disagree with the fact that all of the Ainur participated in the song of creation. But this conjecture is based upon the fact that we must consider the product of Arda as being "whole". As previously stated, the song supplied the vision and Iluvatar "supplied the clay". The ainur who chose to descend into Arda found it void and lifeless. Thus, they laboured to bring all their harmonies into physical being. Now, we know that only a select few of the Ainur who entered Arda (and thus became the Valar) took part in the shaping of the world and this was according to the theme which they had provided in the Song. So, assuming that the world found completion, we must also assume that the Valar were the only Ainur who provided a theme in Iluvatar's music. Is this a logical conclusion?
Or, we could assume that all the Ainur took part and that Arda was never actually complete. What else would have sprung into being if this were the case?
One thing else to remember, the Ainur were probably formless. Song may have been the key to their manifestation, hence, only those who made the choose to sing could actually enter a physical realm.
Algamesh
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Message 8 of 26 in Discussion
From: Nufaciel
Sent: 4/15/2002 11:12 AM
It has always been my understanding that all of the Ainur participated in the Music, because that is what Tolkien tells us. Without all the Ainur participating in the Music, the vision of what the World would be would not be complete. Without the vision, Manwë and the Valar would not know what to create. When the Valar descended down, they were surprised not to see the vision already created, and then only understood that it was their job to realize what themselves and the others had created within the vision. It could be that some of the Ainur did not wish to go to earth, because they could never return to be with Iluvatar.
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Message 9 of 26 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 4/16/2002 12:32 PM
Glor, re "message 6." Thank you for a very powerful reasoning of why a Supreme God would create lesser beings and give them free will. (I have always been grateful but curious about why God would bother to create such flawed beings as 'humans." Your explanation makes beautiful sense!) I think what you said also goes along with JRRT's idea about "sub-creators" which we discussed in BNU.
No one else has mentioned it (at least as far as I've read so far--I'm trying to catch up after being out of town) but I was overwhelmed by the beauty of the images Tolkien conjured for us in these two essays. I almost could hear the music and see the "plan" that it created. I read both of them several times just to feel their power and majesty. Tolkien truly was a "sub-creator" and I think may have had a more than the usual "understanding of the Mind of God." They left me breathless and in awe.
MM
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Message 10 of 26 in Discussion
From: AnnieLT
Sent: 4/18/2002 1:34 PM
As I read A and V far from the boards to assist me, a thought began to take shape in the form of music fragments composed by Bach. At the time I could not understand why my mind suddenly filled with these motifs. Now that I have had the opportunity of reading what my fellow Sil questers have to say, an understanding takes place. As I read Glor’s post about Free Will and the Mind of the Iluvitar and in particular
The Ainur were created and given the command to play music that Illuvitar set forth. They began to play, but they had free will when playing. It seems Illuvitar wanted their minds to understand his, by allowing them to see the interconnections of their harmonies with each other, and that by understanding this connection, they understand the whole of Illuvitar's mind, through their own free will to do so.
the "Aha!" emerged. It was "the interconnections of their harmonies", I think, that brought clarification to the music I was hearing and a recognition to the themes that filled me. . I’m not a musicologist so I don’t have the nomenclature to explain this properly. (Maybe Music Mom could help?) The music that came to me in pieces and fragments suddenly came together and I recognized it as Bach’s Concerto for 4 harpsichords but I think any of his music could be used as an analogy here. What I was understanding about the Valar and how they brought the world into existence was heard by my inner ear as a complex but beautifully synchronized musical composition comprised of many voices (counterpoint), each with its own unique expression (free will) and yet perfectly in tune with and aware of the many voices around it, allowing each voice to be heard clearly within the whole.
In a long ago post, it could have even been BN, a discussion emanated in regards to what kind of music Tolkien listened to. Does anyone remember this? I think that one poster asked DaleAnn or MusicMom to check Letters to see if there was any mention of this. I have definitely decided that Bach had to have been counted among his favorites. Does anyone else have any ideas they would like to share? Appreciation is given in advance. Thanks
Azurite, your conclusion that all the valar paricipated in the musical creation of the world, would be mine, as well. I would have used Stormrider's quote to support this but she has already presented that example above. And I think you are right, too, Nufaciel, that all the Ainur had to participate for the vision of the world to be complete. (And I welcome you both to our community. It is so gratifying to me that we have so many Silmarillion enthusiasts on board willing to share their own visions. It makes the journey so much more enjoyble. Thank you Azurite and Nufaciel).
That the Ainur were probably formless is an intriguing thought, Alg. When I read Q & A, I pictured them as having human form. But perhaps that is what humans do with their creation deities. They create images that they can best identify with. I tend to agree that song manifested them into the physical realm. Now, I can envision the Valar as spirits that inhabit that part of nature that they sang into existence. They become the oceans, the trees, the flowers...Thank you for illuminating this for me. Tolkien, I believe, has not only come close to an animated world, but has entered it fully.
The beauty of the images Tolkien creates was overwhelming for me, as well, Music Mom. When I think of the description of Ulmo, for example, through the eyes of the Children of Eru "...as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green" I could see, feel, and hear the tremendous power of the ocean. Isn't this exciting!!!!
Annie
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Message 11 of 26 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/18/2002 2:33 PM
AnnieLT, your comments are interesting. I haven't read the letters and don't know what Tolkien has said about music, but I read in the Carpenter biography this morning that he didn't like ragtime. That leaves the field open for other kinds of music!
I pictured the music of the Ainur as being Bach-like, because of Bach's mathematical complexities, and because it seems to have similar qualities of interwoven themes, not to mention religious inspiration. But given the diversity of the themes, perhaps it was a bit of everything from Plainsong to Punk, from Heavy Metal to classical Chinese, from Rodgers and Hammerstein to Michael Snow.... somehow all made harmonious and intertwined, representing both the unity and immensity of the world..
I picture the Ainur as entities of light, which is odd, when by all the evidence we have they seem to be entities of sound.
The more I think about this book and its concepts, the more intriguing and rewarding it seems.
namaste,
Elizabeth
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Message 1 of 26 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/14/2002 12:01 PM
The Ainulindalë mentions Melkor, Manwë, Aulë, and Ulmo were the ones who made the music. Did any of the other Valar make music and help in the creation? Were all the Valar Ainurs or just those four that are mentioned?
Stormrider
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Reply
Message 2 of 26 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/14/2002 12:52 PM
As I understand it, many (probably all) of the Ainur participated in the symphony which created the universe. Of this group, fifteen who decided to go and live in Arda are called the Valar. Many others from among the Ainur (an unpsecified number) went with them and were called the Maiar, but they weren't the leaders of the project - they were there to serve and suppert the Valar. Note: Ainu is the singular, Ainur is plural; Vala and Maia are the singular, Valar and Maiar are plurals.
My conclusion then is that yes, all the Valar participated in the musical creation of Arda; and yes, all of the Valar are Ainur. (Though not all the Ainur were Valar, since others stayed outside the realm of Eä with Ilúvatar.)
This is how the Encylopedia of Arda describes the Ainur: "The primordial spirits, who existed with Ilúvatar, and with Him created the world through the Music of the Ainur. After the creation of Arda, many of the Ainur descended into it to guide and order its growth; of these there were fifteen more powerful than the rest. Fourteen of these great Ainur became the Valar".
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Reply
Message 3 of 26 in Discussion
From: CamelliaDanderfluff
Sent: 4/14/2002 12:56 PM
Stormrider; Working backwards from Manwe's description as, "...chief instrument of second theme against discord", I understood that the Ainar were instruments of the orchestra harmonizing in the music Earlier, their voices "like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words..." only seems to strengthen that view. Maybe too simplistic, but I do believe thay all were involved in the fabric of the theme.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 26 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 4/14/2002 3:28 PM
What has been said here is correct. The Valar are a subset of the Ainur.
Looking at the first page of Ainulindale, we learn that each of the Ainur "comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came" Iluvatar "called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme. When Iluvatar invites them to sing, he says (to all the Ainur) "ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will."
That last phrase implies that each individual Ainur was free to sit out the great music. Nevertheless, all were invited to participate, and we are not told that any refused. So all the Ainur (including those who were later to become the Valar and the Maiar) particpated in that music.
Now, to take off in a different direction:
Azurite - you quoted the encyclopedia of Arda as saying "The primordial spirits, who existed with Ilúvatar, and with Him created the world through the Music of the Ainur." That definition implies that it was the music which brought Ea into being. That isn't what happened. The music was an idea, a vision, a plan, a possibility... Without the command of Iluvatar it never would have been anything more. Iluvatar alone created the universe, and he did it when he proclaimed "Ea!"
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Reply
Message 5 of 26 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 4/14/2002 3:35 PM
The four Ainur who are mentioned must have been the "big guns" and had a hand in creating the major parts of Ea such as the earth, the waters, the air, etc. The other Ainur helped them and added their touches, too.
Thank you all for helping me get this straight.
Stormrider
_______________________________________________
Reply
Recommend (1 recommendation so far)
Message 6 of 26 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 4/14/2002 6:57 PM
There are two themes in the Valaquenta that intrigue me most. Free Will and The Mind of Illuvitar.
It is easy to see the parallels in JRRT's creation mythos and Chrisitianity's. Tolkien's Illuvitar(God) created the Ainur(Angels) some of which were Archangels(the higher Ainur). One Ainur(Lucifer) wanted to create his own music. There was a symphony resulting in a chaotic cacaphony (battle).
An interesting parallel in both, both the Ainur and the Archangels apparently had free will. And it could be concluded that both supreme dieties became disenchanted with how there creation of the HIGHER ORDER of beings with free will turned out. Both subsequently created humans (and in the case of JT, another half-way race, the Elves). Also with free will.
The Ainur were created and given the command to play music that Illuvitar set forth. They began to play, but they had free will when playing. It seems Illuvitar wanted their minds to understand his, by allowing them to see the interconnections of their harmonies with each other, and that by understanding this connection, they understand the whole of Illuvitar's mind, through their own free will to do so.
This did not come into being however, because one Ainur(Melkor) took his free will and decided to make his own music themes, after becoming enamored of his own ability to create. But not being Illuvitar, he was thwarted by the fact that his creations had not the power of his creator.
Illuvitar got mad, and if I remember correctly, also gave him another chance, and he did it again. I think this could be a kind of reason, that would make a supreme deity, (Illuvitar/God) try to educate the Ainur in why his themes of harmony were the way to his mind, by then creating a sub-world, (Arda) where they were in fact the creators (power) that would shape the world by thier own interactions (harmnonies), and thus finally understand the mind of Illuvitar.
For in understanding the mind of Illuvitar, you would become one with him. In a finite beings limited thought processes, what would a GOD want after all? The only satisfying thought I could entertain, would be to create a being of free will that would finally understand the God's mind and become as one, giving the God a sense of togetherness instead of aloneness. Any supreme diety could create anything, BUT another one of himself.
Sorry if I ramble, but I have found Tolkiens creation mythos much richer and satisfying, than many of the "actual" religious genisies that are extant today. It seems to explore the very 'nature' of creationism, rather then blindly formulating a backstory to placate the ignorant masses.
Glor
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 26 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 4/14/2002 10:11 PM
I tend to disagree with the fact that all of the Ainur participated in the song of creation. But this conjecture is based upon the fact that we must consider the product of Arda as being "whole". As previously stated, the song supplied the vision and Iluvatar "supplied the clay". The ainur who chose to descend into Arda found it void and lifeless. Thus, they laboured to bring all their harmonies into physical being. Now, we know that only a select few of the Ainur who entered Arda (and thus became the Valar) took part in the shaping of the world and this was according to the theme which they had provided in the Song. So, assuming that the world found completion, we must also assume that the Valar were the only Ainur who provided a theme in Iluvatar's music. Is this a logical conclusion?
Or, we could assume that all the Ainur took part and that Arda was never actually complete. What else would have sprung into being if this were the case?
One thing else to remember, the Ainur were probably formless. Song may have been the key to their manifestation, hence, only those who made the choose to sing could actually enter a physical realm.
Algamesh
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Reply
Message 8 of 26 in Discussion
From: Nufaciel
Sent: 4/15/2002 11:12 AM
It has always been my understanding that all of the Ainur participated in the Music, because that is what Tolkien tells us. Without all the Ainur participating in the Music, the vision of what the World would be would not be complete. Without the vision, Manwë and the Valar would not know what to create. When the Valar descended down, they were surprised not to see the vision already created, and then only understood that it was their job to realize what themselves and the others had created within the vision. It could be that some of the Ainur did not wish to go to earth, because they could never return to be with Iluvatar.
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 26 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 4/16/2002 12:32 PM
Glor, re "message 6." Thank you for a very powerful reasoning of why a Supreme God would create lesser beings and give them free will. (I have always been grateful but curious about why God would bother to create such flawed beings as 'humans." Your explanation makes beautiful sense!) I think what you said also goes along with JRRT's idea about "sub-creators" which we discussed in BNU.
No one else has mentioned it (at least as far as I've read so far--I'm trying to catch up after being out of town) but I was overwhelmed by the beauty of the images Tolkien conjured for us in these two essays. I almost could hear the music and see the "plan" that it created. I read both of them several times just to feel their power and majesty. Tolkien truly was a "sub-creator" and I think may have had a more than the usual "understanding of the Mind of God." They left me breathless and in awe.
MM
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Reply
Message 10 of 26 in Discussion
From: AnnieLT
Sent: 4/18/2002 1:34 PM
As I read A and V far from the boards to assist me, a thought began to take shape in the form of music fragments composed by Bach. At the time I could not understand why my mind suddenly filled with these motifs. Now that I have had the opportunity of reading what my fellow Sil questers have to say, an understanding takes place. As I read Glor’s post about Free Will and the Mind of the Iluvitar and in particular
The Ainur were created and given the command to play music that Illuvitar set forth. They began to play, but they had free will when playing. It seems Illuvitar wanted their minds to understand his, by allowing them to see the interconnections of their harmonies with each other, and that by understanding this connection, they understand the whole of Illuvitar's mind, through their own free will to do so.
the "Aha!" emerged. It was "the interconnections of their harmonies", I think, that brought clarification to the music I was hearing and a recognition to the themes that filled me. . I’m not a musicologist so I don’t have the nomenclature to explain this properly. (Maybe Music Mom could help?) The music that came to me in pieces and fragments suddenly came together and I recognized it as Bach’s Concerto for 4 harpsichords but I think any of his music could be used as an analogy here. What I was understanding about the Valar and how they brought the world into existence was heard by my inner ear as a complex but beautifully synchronized musical composition comprised of many voices (counterpoint), each with its own unique expression (free will) and yet perfectly in tune with and aware of the many voices around it, allowing each voice to be heard clearly within the whole.
In a long ago post, it could have even been BN, a discussion emanated in regards to what kind of music Tolkien listened to. Does anyone remember this? I think that one poster asked DaleAnn or MusicMom to check Letters to see if there was any mention of this. I have definitely decided that Bach had to have been counted among his favorites. Does anyone else have any ideas they would like to share? Appreciation is given in advance. Thanks
Azurite, your conclusion that all the valar paricipated in the musical creation of the world, would be mine, as well. I would have used Stormrider's quote to support this but she has already presented that example above. And I think you are right, too, Nufaciel, that all the Ainur had to participate for the vision of the world to be complete. (And I welcome you both to our community. It is so gratifying to me that we have so many Silmarillion enthusiasts on board willing to share their own visions. It makes the journey so much more enjoyble. Thank you Azurite and Nufaciel).
That the Ainur were probably formless is an intriguing thought, Alg. When I read Q & A, I pictured them as having human form. But perhaps that is what humans do with their creation deities. They create images that they can best identify with. I tend to agree that song manifested them into the physical realm. Now, I can envision the Valar as spirits that inhabit that part of nature that they sang into existence. They become the oceans, the trees, the flowers...Thank you for illuminating this for me. Tolkien, I believe, has not only come close to an animated world, but has entered it fully.
The beauty of the images Tolkien creates was overwhelming for me, as well, Music Mom. When I think of the description of Ulmo, for example, through the eyes of the Children of Eru "...as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green" I could see, feel, and hear the tremendous power of the ocean. Isn't this exciting!!!!
Annie
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 26 in Discussion
From: Azurite
Sent: 4/18/2002 2:33 PM
AnnieLT, your comments are interesting. I haven't read the letters and don't know what Tolkien has said about music, but I read in the Carpenter biography this morning that he didn't like ragtime. That leaves the field open for other kinds of music!
I pictured the music of the Ainur as being Bach-like, because of Bach's mathematical complexities, and because it seems to have similar qualities of interwoven themes, not to mention religious inspiration. But given the diversity of the themes, perhaps it was a bit of everything from Plainsong to Punk, from Heavy Metal to classical Chinese, from Rodgers and Hammerstein to Michael Snow.... somehow all made harmonious and intertwined, representing both the unity and immensity of the world..
I picture the Ainur as entities of light, which is odd, when by all the evidence we have they seem to be entities of sound.
The more I think about this book and its concepts, the more intriguing and rewarding it seems.
namaste,
Elizabeth