Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 11:43:19 GMT -6
Week Eight - So, what do you think?
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Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/8/2002 11:07 AM
You've now finished (hopefully) Quenta Silmarillion. What do you think? Was it worth the time you invested? What have you learned/discovered? Would you call it a happy, or a sad tale?
_______________________________________________
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Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 6/10/2002 8:29 AM
Definately worth the investment of time and energy! Again, my thanks to you and to this group. This was much better reading than my previous attempts.
I feel like beyond itself, having a much better sense of the history of the Silmarillions and elvish history will deepen my next reading of the LOTR. There is a very pervasive sadness to these stories, with flashes of optimism and hope. I suppose that is the true nature of the world, that the endless struggle between 'good' and 'evil' never really ends. This is the way we genuinely test our moral selves.
Tolkien truly paints a devestating protrait of the effects of pride, possessiveness, and envy. All that unfolds because of three jewels!
Zauber
_______________________________________________
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Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: jerseyshore
Sent: 6/10/2002 3:56 PM
My head is still spinning from trying to keep straight names, places, relationships! I tried to understand the basic themes, but definitely need a second reading to sort out some of the deeper nuances. I certainly wouldn't have made it this far without the help and encouragement of the discussion leaders! Thanks!
Kathy C
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 6/10/2002 8:41 PM
Reading through the Silmarillion with our group has been a great experience. It was encouraging to know I was not alone and that others were having difficulties getting through it. We all leaned on each other and and even helped push each other over the humps!
Everyone's thoughts on all of Megn's learning questions helped me see ideas that I had missed. There is still much that is confusing and I am looking forward to our next attempt at it as a History study. I think that will help blow all the remaining clouds away for me!
I was surprised that it started out reading like the Bible. But Tolkien's description of the creation of the Arda was very beautifully written. I enjoyed learning the other stories of how the Elves, Dwarves, and Men were introduced into Arda and how they interacted with each other.
I was very surprised by the avarice, back-stabbing, jealously, hatred, lust, etc. that went on in the lives of the Elves. They were so different in the Lord of the Rings--almost like wise mythical beings that were to be looked up to and admired.
I guess Men were destined to be hood-winked by Morgoth and Sauron so that was not too much of a surprise, but I always thought the Numenoreans were above being fooled by those deceptions.
Reading the Silmarillion was a big unexpected surprise for me. It was interesting and exciting but left me feeling dismayed that Middle Earth was in such turmoil in the beginning days.
But it was worth reading and I want to do it again when we are all ready to tackle it!
________________________________________________
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Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 6/10/2002 11:50 PM
The Silmarillion ... do they make it in a King James Version?
I guess this is probably somewhere around the 10th reading for me and I've never failed to enjoy it! As has been previously stated, the hardest task is the first time or two reading it. The names run together, the measure of time becomes lost, and the events are intertwined and complex. Not only do we have upteen-zillion Elven Lords but it seems that each of them have 2 or 3 names! The Silmarillion is definitely a daunting task!
But, with each reading, I discover a couple of things. Somewhere around my 4th or 5th journey into Arda's past, I began to anticipate the events as they unfolded. This actually led to a great amount of understanding. These were probably my most productive reviews because the material was still new enough to be surprised at times yet I was not as confused about the people and places. I began to "know" the characters and the landscapes. I found that I could finally visualize much of the story at this point and my enjoyment of the tale increased dramatically. This book is definitely a "classic" in my opinion. I've yet to find myself bored at any time during a reading. There aren't many books I can make this claim about!
I think the Silmarillion is as nearly a perfect myth as has ever been created. You want to believe that the events happened in some far away time. Some people view this work as an accessory to "Lord of the Rings". I believe that this tale is so important to the existence of MiddleEarth that it actually surpasses the trilogy, in worth. Where would the "Lord of the Rings" be if it wasn't for Tolkien's earlier obsession with characters such as Beren, Luthien, or Earendil?
One theme that I've always picked up on from the Silmarillion is self-destruction via pride. Pride was always the "deadly sin" in each tragedy that is revealed in the yarn. Think on this a moment. What factors influenced Tolkien to concentrate on the adverse effects of the proud? I've often pondered this question. Here are just a few examples to qualify my statement:
* The Oath of Feanor and his Children
* The lust of the Dwarves for their Craftsmanship
* Numenor's destruction via willful pride
The list goes on and on ...
Let me present one concept that still eludes me whereas Tolkien's motivations are still unclear to me. Near the end of the tale, the following text appears:
"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that are still known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."
So, why was it important to Tolkien that none of the Hither Land Elves participated in the last battle that freed their land from Melkor? I really think this is an interesting passage that has to have particular meaning. I just haven't fathomed 'What?'. Any ideas?
But then, if we skip on down, we find:
And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar ..."
I assume, from this, that the march wasn't hidden by some means for the true-hearted men joined the Valanorian ranks. What is this significance that I have always felt?
I guess I should end this rambling by simply stating that I have had a wonderful time reading the Silmarillion as well as the informed comments left by some of "our very own". I look forward to sharing future reading endeavors with my TR brethren!
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/11/2002 7:00 AM
Algamesh wrote:
Let me present one concept that still eludes me whereas Tolkien's motivations are still unclear to me. Near the end of the tale, the following text appears:
"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that are still known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."
So, why was it important to Tolkien that none of the Hither Land Elves participated in the last battle that freed their land from Melkor? I really think this is an interesting passage that has to have particular meaning. I just haven't fathomed 'What?'. Any ideas?
Alg, the answer is simple, but you aren't going to like it. Most of the Quenta Silmarillion was "written" by those who witnessed the events. "for among them went none of those Elves...who made the histories of those days." Tolkien didn't write enough about the War of Wrath to make it an eyewitness account. Therefore, those Elves could not be in the picture.
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Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/11/2002 7:13 AM
Alg here is some more for you from Michael Martinez:
We tend to compare The Silmarillion to the Bible or the Greek epics, because the stories are so rich and detailed. But the War of Wrath is not really an event. There is no particular story associated with it. It evolves, apparently, mostly out of a need to resolve the evolution of Earendil's character. In the older mythology, he moved around the landscape with (what would become the War of Wrath) unfolding in the background. In The Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien needed to bring the full narrative to some sort of conclusion. His father had made one attempt in 1925 and another 1937, and in doing so had altered the story of Earendil considerably. But there was no final text for Christopher to use which was compatible with the post-Lord of the Rings texts which made up a large part of the published Silmarillion.
The complete article can be found here: www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/74847
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Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/12/2002 8:26 AM
I have struggled for a few days with this topic and how to word what I am about to say. But, I believe that most people participating in the Mock History would come to a similar opinion.
For quite some time I was happy with Sil. I read carefully and was savoring every word. Then, because of The Mock History Syllabus, I picked up Unfinished Tales to read at the appropriate spots in the timeline of Sil: specifically, at chapter 21 of Sil and the "Narn I Hin Hurin" out of UT. What I found was that chap. 21 is only an unsatisfactory summary (in most parts) of the tale told in UT. This type thing but, not to this extent, is repeated in the following chapters, also.
While I read, I came to the conclusion that we are reading "A" Silmarillion, not necessarily, "The" Silmarillion that JRRT truly invisioned. I am disappointed that C. Tolkien had a greater hand in it than I previously thought.
Further research for The Mock History led me to this. Christopher Tolkien altered the story of the Ruin of Doriath and later regreted it.:
www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/45552
"That's the trickiest question of them all. It's not relevant to the other books because Christopher Tolkien has removed it from such relevance. In the foreword to The Silmarillion Christopher warned the reader that "a complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all, at heavy and needless cost."
Christopher has since repudiated some of his editorial decisions in The Silmarillion, however, and of the critical changes he introduced to the story of the fall of Doriath he has gone on to say, "this story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long contemplatiomn among alternative conceptions....It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing....It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function."
This admission all but invalidates The Silmarillion as a representation of J.R.R. Tolkien's hand. In fact, there is no Silmarillion which represents J.R.R. Tolkien's direct authorial achievement. Even the "Quenta Silmarillion" of the late 1930s is not part of a greater, more complete work which would have become The Silmarillion.
To be sure, most of the material in The Silmarillion was written by J.R.R. Tolkien...at one time or another. It was never written to be part of this book, however. Not by J.R.R. Tolkien. Christopher Tolkien wrote the final Silmarillion, and after spending nearly 20 years analyzing his father's work and comparing that to the published book, he came to the conclusion that he had not been as faithful to his father's hand as he had hoped."
So what has this revelation (no pun intended) done to what I think of Sil? I think less of it as "The Bible" of JRRT and now look forward to reading HoME cover to cover. It is still beautifully written in most places and am very glad we are reading it. I'll just stop thinking of it as mostly JRRT.
I rarely think of history as happy or sad. I don't think of this tale (the published or unpublished versions) that way either. It just is. Without it, we would not have LotR
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Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 6/12/2002 8:23 PM
Hehe ...
You got to love DaleAnn! She takes a book that we all hold on a pedestal and burns it is the flames of discontent! hahahaha.
Well, I can see this point of view. The History of Middle-earth series does reveal the difference between J.R.R.'s thought and Christopher's application. I have tried to avoid and forget this fact but DA had to go ahead and get it out on the table, so, I have to consider it .
DaleAnn, you are (of course) right. This is not "The" Silmarillion envisoined by the father ... it is simply an interpretation by the son. Not really that different than Jackson's interpretation. Like Mr. Jackson, Christopher has removed much of the detailing and retained the basic themes. But, unlike Chris Tolkien, I cannot consider this book a failure or a mistake. He can hold such high standards because it is he that lives in the memory of his father. No less than perfect is acceptable in his mind. I, on the other hand, feel that the Silmarillion fills it's purpose in giving us a history and some offical explanation of the saga's beginnings. C. Tolkien was under much pressure to produce this piece of literature ... pressure placed upon him by the fans (and probably the publisher). I think for him to not write this piece would have been a mistake. J.R.R. is no longer a source and if I trust someone to delve deeper, I put that trust in the true living expert - his son. How often is Chris influenced by seemingly forgotten memories of his father's vision?
Algamesh
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Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/13/2002 4:06 AM
Alg, few placed Silmarillion on a higher pedestal than myself. All I've done is sawed it down to a more realistic level for myself. C.Tolkien had a greater hand in it than I thought and I see what I consider to be mistakes he made to the later chapters. But, that does not destroy Sil for me.
Christopher was only beginning his research at the time of Sil. Yes, I've read that fans had a great deal to do with the publishing of Sil. He did the best he could with the information at hand. No, even better than best. He faced a daunting task. The mountain of multilevel notes and tangled web of beginnings, middles and sometimes endings to stories must have seemed insurmountable in the beginning. I'm grateful to him for all the work he put into Sil, UT, and HoME.
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Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/15/2002 10:31 PM
Thank you for your insights, DaleAnn. You've finally convinced me that I must read HoME.
Ages ago, when the Book of Lost Tales first came out, I was a senior in high school. I had read LOTR about 8 times already, and Sil twice. I was excited to discover more. But someone somewhere gave me the impression that these were stories that Tolkien had never meant to have published - they were early versions which he had later revised or removed in order to achieve the final result in Silmarillion. (I have since learned, thanks to comments on this board, that that was an incorrect impression.) I decided not to read the book, and ignored HoME as they came out.
I'm curious. Do we ever, anywhere, get a more detailed story of Earendil? This time through the book I was strongly aware of how the entire story leads up to him. Quenta Silmarillion is essentially and fall and redemption story. We get plenty of detail on the fall - Feanor. At least, we get enough to enable us to have great discussions here about just what went wrong in him. From that point on the story moves towards Earendil. Nearly everything is preparing the way for him (or Elwing), both in terms of their physical generation, and setting the stage for their voyage. Except for the long tragedy of Turin (my least favorite part of the book), it's all preparation for Earendil's final act of redemption. So why is so little said about him, when he finally arrives?
Now I'm wondering if the story is more fully told somewhere, but Christopher was pressed, and didn't have time to sort out the various versions his father wrote, and so condensed the essence of his story into a few short paragraphs.
I'm on a quest! To find Earendil!
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Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/15/2002 10:37 PM
I'm reading "Letters" now. Actually re-reading - I think I read it years ago, but missed a lot the first time. I was just getting to know Tolkien, the man, at that point.
I've already discovered that Earendil is one of his earliest bits of ME writing.
27 November, 1914 he wrote to his fiance Edith:
"...had to go to a meeting of the Essay Club - an informal kind of last gasp. There was a bad paper but an interesting discussion. It was also composition meeting and I read 'Earendel' which was well criticised."
The endnote says
"Tolkien wrote a poem entitled 'The Voyage of Earendil the Evening Star' in September 1914."
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Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 6/16/2002 8:22 AM
Megn:
I was wondering the same thing myself. There is so much history of the strife, fall, and wars but very little about Earendil who was the redeemer! I wondered why it was such a small part of The Silmarillion.
I have just started reading Unfinished Tales and have only gotten about four or five pages into it and already see differences and much more detailed information there. I will keep my eyes open for all passages relating to Earendil, too.
Stormrider
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Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/8/2002 11:07 AM
You've now finished (hopefully) Quenta Silmarillion. What do you think? Was it worth the time you invested? What have you learned/discovered? Would you call it a happy, or a sad tale?
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 6/10/2002 8:29 AM
Definately worth the investment of time and energy! Again, my thanks to you and to this group. This was much better reading than my previous attempts.
I feel like beyond itself, having a much better sense of the history of the Silmarillions and elvish history will deepen my next reading of the LOTR. There is a very pervasive sadness to these stories, with flashes of optimism and hope. I suppose that is the true nature of the world, that the endless struggle between 'good' and 'evil' never really ends. This is the way we genuinely test our moral selves.
Tolkien truly paints a devestating protrait of the effects of pride, possessiveness, and envy. All that unfolds because of three jewels!
Zauber
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: jerseyshore
Sent: 6/10/2002 3:56 PM
My head is still spinning from trying to keep straight names, places, relationships! I tried to understand the basic themes, but definitely need a second reading to sort out some of the deeper nuances. I certainly wouldn't have made it this far without the help and encouragement of the discussion leaders! Thanks!
Kathy C
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 6/10/2002 8:41 PM
Reading through the Silmarillion with our group has been a great experience. It was encouraging to know I was not alone and that others were having difficulties getting through it. We all leaned on each other and and even helped push each other over the humps!
Everyone's thoughts on all of Megn's learning questions helped me see ideas that I had missed. There is still much that is confusing and I am looking forward to our next attempt at it as a History study. I think that will help blow all the remaining clouds away for me!
I was surprised that it started out reading like the Bible. But Tolkien's description of the creation of the Arda was very beautifully written. I enjoyed learning the other stories of how the Elves, Dwarves, and Men were introduced into Arda and how they interacted with each other.
I was very surprised by the avarice, back-stabbing, jealously, hatred, lust, etc. that went on in the lives of the Elves. They were so different in the Lord of the Rings--almost like wise mythical beings that were to be looked up to and admired.
I guess Men were destined to be hood-winked by Morgoth and Sauron so that was not too much of a surprise, but I always thought the Numenoreans were above being fooled by those deceptions.
Reading the Silmarillion was a big unexpected surprise for me. It was interesting and exciting but left me feeling dismayed that Middle Earth was in such turmoil in the beginning days.
But it was worth reading and I want to do it again when we are all ready to tackle it!
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 6/10/2002 11:50 PM
The Silmarillion ... do they make it in a King James Version?
I guess this is probably somewhere around the 10th reading for me and I've never failed to enjoy it! As has been previously stated, the hardest task is the first time or two reading it. The names run together, the measure of time becomes lost, and the events are intertwined and complex. Not only do we have upteen-zillion Elven Lords but it seems that each of them have 2 or 3 names! The Silmarillion is definitely a daunting task!
But, with each reading, I discover a couple of things. Somewhere around my 4th or 5th journey into Arda's past, I began to anticipate the events as they unfolded. This actually led to a great amount of understanding. These were probably my most productive reviews because the material was still new enough to be surprised at times yet I was not as confused about the people and places. I began to "know" the characters and the landscapes. I found that I could finally visualize much of the story at this point and my enjoyment of the tale increased dramatically. This book is definitely a "classic" in my opinion. I've yet to find myself bored at any time during a reading. There aren't many books I can make this claim about!
I think the Silmarillion is as nearly a perfect myth as has ever been created. You want to believe that the events happened in some far away time. Some people view this work as an accessory to "Lord of the Rings". I believe that this tale is so important to the existence of MiddleEarth that it actually surpasses the trilogy, in worth. Where would the "Lord of the Rings" be if it wasn't for Tolkien's earlier obsession with characters such as Beren, Luthien, or Earendil?
One theme that I've always picked up on from the Silmarillion is self-destruction via pride. Pride was always the "deadly sin" in each tragedy that is revealed in the yarn. Think on this a moment. What factors influenced Tolkien to concentrate on the adverse effects of the proud? I've often pondered this question. Here are just a few examples to qualify my statement:
* The Oath of Feanor and his Children
* The lust of the Dwarves for their Craftsmanship
* Numenor's destruction via willful pride
The list goes on and on ...
Let me present one concept that still eludes me whereas Tolkien's motivations are still unclear to me. Near the end of the tale, the following text appears:
"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that are still known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."
So, why was it important to Tolkien that none of the Hither Land Elves participated in the last battle that freed their land from Melkor? I really think this is an interesting passage that has to have particular meaning. I just haven't fathomed 'What?'. Any ideas?
But then, if we skip on down, we find:
And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar ..."
I assume, from this, that the march wasn't hidden by some means for the true-hearted men joined the Valanorian ranks. What is this significance that I have always felt?
I guess I should end this rambling by simply stating that I have had a wonderful time reading the Silmarillion as well as the informed comments left by some of "our very own". I look forward to sharing future reading endeavors with my TR brethren!
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/11/2002 7:00 AM
Algamesh wrote:
Let me present one concept that still eludes me whereas Tolkien's motivations are still unclear to me. Near the end of the tale, the following text appears:
"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that are still known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."
So, why was it important to Tolkien that none of the Hither Land Elves participated in the last battle that freed their land from Melkor? I really think this is an interesting passage that has to have particular meaning. I just haven't fathomed 'What?'. Any ideas?
Alg, the answer is simple, but you aren't going to like it. Most of the Quenta Silmarillion was "written" by those who witnessed the events. "for among them went none of those Elves...who made the histories of those days." Tolkien didn't write enough about the War of Wrath to make it an eyewitness account. Therefore, those Elves could not be in the picture.
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/11/2002 7:13 AM
Alg here is some more for you from Michael Martinez:
We tend to compare The Silmarillion to the Bible or the Greek epics, because the stories are so rich and detailed. But the War of Wrath is not really an event. There is no particular story associated with it. It evolves, apparently, mostly out of a need to resolve the evolution of Earendil's character. In the older mythology, he moved around the landscape with (what would become the War of Wrath) unfolding in the background. In The Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien needed to bring the full narrative to some sort of conclusion. His father had made one attempt in 1925 and another 1937, and in doing so had altered the story of Earendil considerably. But there was no final text for Christopher to use which was compatible with the post-Lord of the Rings texts which made up a large part of the published Silmarillion.
The complete article can be found here: www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/74847
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/12/2002 8:26 AM
I have struggled for a few days with this topic and how to word what I am about to say. But, I believe that most people participating in the Mock History would come to a similar opinion.
For quite some time I was happy with Sil. I read carefully and was savoring every word. Then, because of The Mock History Syllabus, I picked up Unfinished Tales to read at the appropriate spots in the timeline of Sil: specifically, at chapter 21 of Sil and the "Narn I Hin Hurin" out of UT. What I found was that chap. 21 is only an unsatisfactory summary (in most parts) of the tale told in UT. This type thing but, not to this extent, is repeated in the following chapters, also.
While I read, I came to the conclusion that we are reading "A" Silmarillion, not necessarily, "The" Silmarillion that JRRT truly invisioned. I am disappointed that C. Tolkien had a greater hand in it than I previously thought.
Further research for The Mock History led me to this. Christopher Tolkien altered the story of the Ruin of Doriath and later regreted it.:
www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/45552
"That's the trickiest question of them all. It's not relevant to the other books because Christopher Tolkien has removed it from such relevance. In the foreword to The Silmarillion Christopher warned the reader that "a complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all, at heavy and needless cost."
Christopher has since repudiated some of his editorial decisions in The Silmarillion, however, and of the critical changes he introduced to the story of the fall of Doriath he has gone on to say, "this story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long contemplatiomn among alternative conceptions....It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing....It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function."
This admission all but invalidates The Silmarillion as a representation of J.R.R. Tolkien's hand. In fact, there is no Silmarillion which represents J.R.R. Tolkien's direct authorial achievement. Even the "Quenta Silmarillion" of the late 1930s is not part of a greater, more complete work which would have become The Silmarillion.
To be sure, most of the material in The Silmarillion was written by J.R.R. Tolkien...at one time or another. It was never written to be part of this book, however. Not by J.R.R. Tolkien. Christopher Tolkien wrote the final Silmarillion, and after spending nearly 20 years analyzing his father's work and comparing that to the published book, he came to the conclusion that he had not been as faithful to his father's hand as he had hoped."
So what has this revelation (no pun intended) done to what I think of Sil? I think less of it as "The Bible" of JRRT and now look forward to reading HoME cover to cover. It is still beautifully written in most places and am very glad we are reading it. I'll just stop thinking of it as mostly JRRT.
I rarely think of history as happy or sad. I don't think of this tale (the published or unpublished versions) that way either. It just is. Without it, we would not have LotR
______________________________________________
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Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 6/12/2002 8:23 PM
Hehe ...
You got to love DaleAnn! She takes a book that we all hold on a pedestal and burns it is the flames of discontent! hahahaha.
Well, I can see this point of view. The History of Middle-earth series does reveal the difference between J.R.R.'s thought and Christopher's application. I have tried to avoid and forget this fact but DA had to go ahead and get it out on the table, so, I have to consider it .
DaleAnn, you are (of course) right. This is not "The" Silmarillion envisoined by the father ... it is simply an interpretation by the son. Not really that different than Jackson's interpretation. Like Mr. Jackson, Christopher has removed much of the detailing and retained the basic themes. But, unlike Chris Tolkien, I cannot consider this book a failure or a mistake. He can hold such high standards because it is he that lives in the memory of his father. No less than perfect is acceptable in his mind. I, on the other hand, feel that the Silmarillion fills it's purpose in giving us a history and some offical explanation of the saga's beginnings. C. Tolkien was under much pressure to produce this piece of literature ... pressure placed upon him by the fans (and probably the publisher). I think for him to not write this piece would have been a mistake. J.R.R. is no longer a source and if I trust someone to delve deeper, I put that trust in the true living expert - his son. How often is Chris influenced by seemingly forgotten memories of his father's vision?
Algamesh
_______________________________________________
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Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 6/13/2002 4:06 AM
Alg, few placed Silmarillion on a higher pedestal than myself. All I've done is sawed it down to a more realistic level for myself. C.Tolkien had a greater hand in it than I thought and I see what I consider to be mistakes he made to the later chapters. But, that does not destroy Sil for me.
Christopher was only beginning his research at the time of Sil. Yes, I've read that fans had a great deal to do with the publishing of Sil. He did the best he could with the information at hand. No, even better than best. He faced a daunting task. The mountain of multilevel notes and tangled web of beginnings, middles and sometimes endings to stories must have seemed insurmountable in the beginning. I'm grateful to him for all the work he put into Sil, UT, and HoME.
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Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/15/2002 10:31 PM
Thank you for your insights, DaleAnn. You've finally convinced me that I must read HoME.
Ages ago, when the Book of Lost Tales first came out, I was a senior in high school. I had read LOTR about 8 times already, and Sil twice. I was excited to discover more. But someone somewhere gave me the impression that these were stories that Tolkien had never meant to have published - they were early versions which he had later revised or removed in order to achieve the final result in Silmarillion. (I have since learned, thanks to comments on this board, that that was an incorrect impression.) I decided not to read the book, and ignored HoME as they came out.
I'm curious. Do we ever, anywhere, get a more detailed story of Earendil? This time through the book I was strongly aware of how the entire story leads up to him. Quenta Silmarillion is essentially and fall and redemption story. We get plenty of detail on the fall - Feanor. At least, we get enough to enable us to have great discussions here about just what went wrong in him. From that point on the story moves towards Earendil. Nearly everything is preparing the way for him (or Elwing), both in terms of their physical generation, and setting the stage for their voyage. Except for the long tragedy of Turin (my least favorite part of the book), it's all preparation for Earendil's final act of redemption. So why is so little said about him, when he finally arrives?
Now I'm wondering if the story is more fully told somewhere, but Christopher was pressed, and didn't have time to sort out the various versions his father wrote, and so condensed the essence of his story into a few short paragraphs.
I'm on a quest! To find Earendil!
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Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/15/2002 10:37 PM
I'm reading "Letters" now. Actually re-reading - I think I read it years ago, but missed a lot the first time. I was just getting to know Tolkien, the man, at that point.
I've already discovered that Earendil is one of his earliest bits of ME writing.
27 November, 1914 he wrote to his fiance Edith:
"...had to go to a meeting of the Essay Club - an informal kind of last gasp. There was a bad paper but an interesting discussion. It was also composition meeting and I read 'Earendel' which was well criticised."
The endnote says
"Tolkien wrote a poem entitled 'The Voyage of Earendil the Evening Star' in September 1914."
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Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 6/16/2002 8:22 AM
Megn:
I was wondering the same thing myself. There is so much history of the strife, fall, and wars but very little about Earendil who was the redeemer! I wondered why it was such a small part of The Silmarillion.
I have just started reading Unfinished Tales and have only gotten about four or five pages into it and already see differences and much more detailed information there. I will keep my eyes open for all passages relating to Earendil, too.
Stormrider