Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 18:01:22 GMT -6
Week Six – Prophesies & genealogy
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Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/18/2002 7:10 PM
Two questions in this thread:
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1. In the story of Luthien and Beren, how many fulfilled prophesies can you find?
2. Luthien and Beren have a son, Dior. List all the kindreds or bloodlines that come together in him. (This will be an on-going project, since his descendents continue to blend many kindreds together.)
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Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 5:39 PM
megn1 wrote:
> 1. In the story of Luthien and Beren, how many fulfilled prophesies
> can you find?
Here are a couple to get things started. Page numbers are from the
paperback ed. The chapter's 34 pages long, so I'll note how many
pages into the chapter a quote is.
I'm not too clear on this first one.
FELAGUND FORETELLS HIS DEATH
Prophesy
On page 155, at the very end of "Of the Noldor in Beleriand," Felagund
tells Galadriel, " 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it
and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a
son shall inherit it.' "
Fulfillment
Page 204, 10 pages into the chapter: "But Felagund...knew that the
oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before
he had told to Galadriel." I don't know what else this could refer to
except the above from page 155.
DOOM OF DORIATH
Prophesy
On page 172, 6 pages into the chapter "Of the Coming of Men...,"
Thingol says that no Man shall enter his realm while he lives. Yet
Melian tells Galadriel, " 'And one of Men, even of Beor's house,
shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him,
for doom greater than my power shall send him....' "
Fulfillment
Page 202, 8 pages into the chapter: "Thus [Beren] wrought the
doom of Doriath...."
If I goofed up on any of this, be gentle :-)
Diana
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Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 6/3/2002 5:50 PM
WTG Diana!! We really needed someone to get the Sim studies going again, great job!
Glor
_____________________________________________
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Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 6:20 PM
Wow, thanks Glorfindle! It feels great to be finally up-to-date on the reading!
__________________________________________
Diana
Reply
Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/5/2002 5:42 AM
Hey Amaranth/Diana,
Great job! Thanks for documenting your finds.
Anyone want to add any more?
________________________________________________
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Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 6/23/2002 2:54 AM
It is with great risk of begining another "Talking Sword " debate that I now type this prophesy of Huan the Hound of Valanor:
[Then for the third time Huan spoke with words; and he conunselled Beren, saying: "From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by her love she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into exile, seeking peace in vain while your life last. But if you will not deny your doom, then either Luthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or she must with challenge the fate that lies before you-hopless, yet not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your road. But my heart forbodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our paths lead back to Doriath, and we may meet before the end."]
This has always been a favorite line for me, so I had to include all of it. Huan's prophesy is meeting of Carcharoth. "what you find at the Gate I shall myself see." But I believe he is also foreseeing his own and Berens death when he speaks of their paths leading back to Doriath.
Now here is somthing I find interesting and I wonder if this is contrived or by chance. Why wasn't Huan able to go with them all the way to the Gate, we already know the song of Luthien could have disguised him. Was it he was held by rules akin to those of Gandalf, where he was forbidden from direct conflict with Sauron, was Huan not allowed open conflict against Melkor?
Don't say I didn't warn you, but it is a great subject to think about.
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/18/2002 7:10 PM
Two questions in this thread:
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
1. In the story of Luthien and Beren, how many fulfilled prophesies can you find?
2. Luthien and Beren have a son, Dior. List all the kindreds or bloodlines that come together in him. (This will be an on-going project, since his descendents continue to blend many kindreds together.)
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 5:39 PM
megn1 wrote:
> 1. In the story of Luthien and Beren, how many fulfilled prophesies
> can you find?
Here are a couple to get things started. Page numbers are from the
paperback ed. The chapter's 34 pages long, so I'll note how many
pages into the chapter a quote is.
I'm not too clear on this first one.
FELAGUND FORETELLS HIS DEATH
Prophesy
On page 155, at the very end of "Of the Noldor in Beleriand," Felagund
tells Galadriel, " 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it
and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a
son shall inherit it.' "
Fulfillment
Page 204, 10 pages into the chapter: "But Felagund...knew that the
oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before
he had told to Galadriel." I don't know what else this could refer to
except the above from page 155.
DOOM OF DORIATH
Prophesy
On page 172, 6 pages into the chapter "Of the Coming of Men...,"
Thingol says that no Man shall enter his realm while he lives. Yet
Melian tells Galadriel, " 'And one of Men, even of Beor's house,
shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him,
for doom greater than my power shall send him....' "
Fulfillment
Page 202, 8 pages into the chapter: "Thus [Beren] wrought the
doom of Doriath...."
If I goofed up on any of this, be gentle :-)
Diana
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 6/3/2002 5:50 PM
WTG Diana!! We really needed someone to get the Sim studies going again, great job!
Glor
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 6:20 PM
Wow, thanks Glorfindle! It feels great to be finally up-to-date on the reading!
__________________________________________
Diana
Reply
Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/5/2002 5:42 AM
Hey Amaranth/Diana,
Great job! Thanks for documenting your finds.
Anyone want to add any more?
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 6/23/2002 2:54 AM
It is with great risk of begining another "Talking Sword " debate that I now type this prophesy of Huan the Hound of Valanor:
[Then for the third time Huan spoke with words; and he conunselled Beren, saying: "From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by her love she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into exile, seeking peace in vain while your life last. But if you will not deny your doom, then either Luthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or she must with challenge the fate that lies before you-hopless, yet not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your road. But my heart forbodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our paths lead back to Doriath, and we may meet before the end."]
This has always been a favorite line for me, so I had to include all of it. Huan's prophesy is meeting of Carcharoth. "what you find at the Gate I shall myself see." But I believe he is also foreseeing his own and Berens death when he speaks of their paths leading back to Doriath.
Now here is somthing I find interesting and I wonder if this is contrived or by chance. Why wasn't Huan able to go with them all the way to the Gate, we already know the song of Luthien could have disguised him. Was it he was held by rules akin to those of Gandalf, where he was forbidden from direct conflict with Sauron, was Huan not allowed open conflict against Melkor?
Don't say I didn't warn you, but it is a great subject to think about.
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain