Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 18:18:27 GMT -6
Akallebeth
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Message 1 of 11 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 3/29/2002 12:31 PM
I'm devastated.
I don't quite know why, but after reading Akallebeth my heart sunk into an abyss of despair. As far as I can tell, it's wallowing there still.
How could the descendants of Elros turn away from Manwe?? How could they become so base as to become an ally of the Dark Lord Sauron??? For what reason did this happen?
I personally would have preferred a more, well, noble downfall. Like Feanor. His was a crime of passion. He swore oaths and such. He was fiesty.
Akallebeth tarnishes my view of the Numenorians. Grrrrrrrr......
~ Gilwen ~
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Message 2 of 11 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/29/2002 4:16 PM
> Akallebeth tarnishes my view of the Numenorians. Grrrrrrrr......
Yes, they're just so HUMAN, aren't they. Makes you want to be an elf...
Tolkien fought in the War to End All Wars - and many of his peers died in it. Then he lived to see another, bloodier war fought over the very same territory. He knew, from personal experience, that even victorious endings are not always happy, nor are they truly endings.
But then, even the most depressing defeats are not permanent, either.
Go back and re-read what Legolas and Gimli say to each other as they enter Minas Tirith for the first time (somewhere in ROTK - don't have my books with me).
Then take a long bath, and wallow in the despair. I know the feeling.
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Message 3 of 11 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 3/29/2002 8:58 PM
Megn1: Are you refering to the beginning of Chapter IX--The Last Debate in ROTK? Legolas and Gimli enter Minas Tirith looking for Merry and Pippin who are both in the Houses of Healing. Gimli makes the comment about good stone-work and Legolas says there aren't enough gardens. They both make promises to help Aragorn out once he "comes into his own" by sending help to rebuild and plant.
Stormrider
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Message 4 of 11 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/29/2002 9:09 PM
Yes, keep reading.
Gimli says "Doubtless the good stone-wrok is the older and was wrought in the first building. It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise."
"Yet seldom do they fail of their seed," said Legolas. "And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli."
They are speaking of Gondor, but it applies to Numenor as well.
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Message 5 of 11 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/30/2002 1:27 AM
Tolkien frequently delivers a good number of shocks to his first time readers as they progress from the Hobbit, through the LoTR, trilogy and finally enter the "deeper" histories of the Silmarillion. I read the trilogy before I read the Hobbit so I did not have any expectations of the behaviours likely to come from Elves, Hobbits, or Wizards. In fact I was quite prepared to see the "eaves-dropping" Sam as a villain in Sauron's pay, and I expected Gandalf to commit, at any time, some sort of treachery to gain the One Ring for himself. Of course, by the end of my first traverse through the trilogy, it then seemed so obvious that Gandalf was good, and Sam was true. After dropping back in time to read the Hobbit I found the basic Tolkien scheme of "virtues" clearly laid out as in a child's fairy tale: Good = Wizards, Hobbits, Elves, and Eagles; Mainly Good but Self Centered = Dwarves, Beorings and Men; Bad = Dragons, Wargs, Gobblins, Gollums, Spiders, and Necromancers. On second and subsequent reads I began to view the LoTR as just a more elaborate and "adult" version of this Hobbit scheme of good and bad, here the readers were introduced to a more realistic pattern of good, bad, and "conflicted." In LoTR Wizards could indeed become traitors, Men in general came in a full spectrum from the noble to the debased, and even Hobbits could be "evil," petty-minded, grasping and cruel (Ted Sandyman, Lotho "The Pimple," Lobelia and their followers). But at least Sauron remained "evil," as did Orcs and Wolves, and Spiders, and Numenoreans remained noble, high and uncorrupted though they ranged in turn from types like Aragorn and Faramir, to Denethor and Boromir. And then I read the appendices in the RoTK, and found some very suspicious entries (Numenoreans could be Nazgul! The people of Gondor engaged in bloody civil wars: Kinstrife of 1432; Osgiliath, great capital of Gondor with its Dome of Stars was destroyed by its own people...) -- later I learned that these were digests from the Silmarillion, and there were hints in RoTK that even more "disturbing" facts of an "intensly realistic" sort were yet to be uncovered.
When the Silmarillion was at long last, finally published I was already prepared by the appendices of RoTKfor the "Akalabeth's" tale of woe, of Numenorean treacheries, revolts, and their eventual, cataclysmic downfall. I assumed that Tolkien had created a line of natural progression in his writing that led from the simplistic charcter portrayal of the Hobbit to a more realistic interpretation in the trilogy, and finally a very complex situation of character motivations in the Silmarillion. More surprizes: although published last, the Silmarillion had actually been written first! There was no neat progression towards increasing reality and complexity... Additionally, the full tale of the Numenorean fall was even more bitter and "realistic" than I had imagined it would be, and even though somewhat prepared for a grim story, the actual book still had the power to stun and shock upon first reading. It was presented in a very raw, annalistic fashion, a straight-forward history of the same egotistic drives, the same pettiness, the same politics, in-fighting, treacheries, and back-stabbing that one would find in a good account of the last days of the Roman Empire, or the bloody, filthiness and stupidity of World War One...
As Megn1 suggests: "Yes, there just so HUMAN, aren't they. Makes you want to be an elf..."
I started trying to understand things from the Numenorean point of view, the Kingsmen. Living on a sheltered island in the very near vicinity of a heavenly paradise, no diseases, no deformities or disabilities how wonderful this "gift land" and "gift life" must have been! How could they falter? How could they reject the Powers that had made this wonderful existence possible? How could they throw it all away? Well, maybe because there was a catch in the whole affair, they were indeed Human. They were given long lives of wonder and potential joy, every act and thought enriched with the gifts of the Valar and the Eldar - but after a while, even a "near paradise" life must have become an accepted routine, a matter to be taken for granted - that is the Human way. Regardless of how good things are, we always ask for better - part of the human condition - and for the Numenoreans the only thing really denied them, the only element of perfection they could not attain was immortality. Yet they lived directly in the shadow of the Undying Lands where a similar grand existence could be carried on forever - what a torment that must have been. So close to total perfection, yet the door was always shut against them, the Ban of the Valar and the "Doom of Men" would seem very confining things under such conditions, maddening... and I think at last many of the Numenoreans simply went stark-raving mad, mad with envy of the immortality of the Elves, mad from living where Men should not be allowed to live, right on the doorstep of paradise... No wonder the "Faithful" of Ellendil could fit, in those last days, into merely Seven ships for their flight back to the havens of Middle Earth -- only a handful of humans could maintain their sanity that close to the forbidden realms of what must have seemed to be the absolute paradise. Sauron merely exploited this sickly-mindedness of the Numenoreans, their lust for life-everlasting, turning it to his advantage, and in a sense securing in the destruction of Numenor another Human Fall, another Eden lost?
It seems so inevitable to me that Numenor MUST be drowned, and dwelling near to paradise be ended - imperfect humans were never meant to live that close to perfection!
Having sort of "mystically" settled that matter to my satisfaction long ago - and I hope everyone else comes up with their own understanding of this material - I then read further in the Silmarillion. More trouble... the Elves do not come off all that nobly either! Backstabbers, betrayers, rapists, murderers and thieves! Feanor and his Sons look like very badly disturbed, conflicted, juvenile deliquents - I would not be surprized to find that Feanor's skilled hands invented not only swords, palantiri, and silmarils but also the switch-blade knife. The Kinslaying, where Feanor stole the Teleri Ships, looks very close to the Kinstrife episodes of the people of Gondor; and then there is that nasty business of the Elves hunting and slaughtering the "Petty Dwarves" like animals; and the implied deadly conflicts between the first of the Atani and the Wood Elves which puts even the Elves of the Silmarillion into a new light as a most realistic and politically motivated folk - no wonder the Orcs are related to them...
"Akallebeth tarnishes my view of the Numenorians." LOL - Gilwen, I think Tolkien would get a chuckle out of our shocks, it is precisely this aspect of "realism" in his works that keeps them from being simple fantasy/ fairy tales. Old JRRT was out to give us REAL HISTORY, blood, guts, and betrayal all over Arda! Yes, quite a shock when one considers the characterizations usually first read in the Hobbit!
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Message 6 of 11 in Discussion
From: Elanor
Sent: 4/1/2002 9:16 AM
For some reason I had it in my head that we were starting Sil at the start of April and not march. Fortunatley I've read it before so I can pick up where you all are.
Anyway...Like most I was sad that the elves I equated with perfection and wisdom had such a rocky and rebelious start. But after a moment of thought I realized where their wisdom came from. Their immortality gave them lots of time to learn from lives mistakes, so by the end of the 3rd age, they appeared very wise to the short-lived. That's my 2 cents...
abbie
go not to the elves for advice, for they will answer both yeah and neah (paraphrased)
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Message 7 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nickname6_strings_n_gazoline
Sent: 6/4/2002 6:22 PM
I fell exactely like you I thought the Numenoriens where the kings of kings and not cryptic devil worshipers I thought they would be more like Aragorn/Strider . But they are human and it is just part of the greif of middle-earth .
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Message 8 of 11 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/15/2002 10:39 PM
I'm posting here to bring this thread back to the top.
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Message 9 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 6/23/2002 2:19 AM
"Realism" yes Karo6 I think that would be the head of the proverbial nail that keeps me re-reading this series over and over. One aspect that harkens to my mind regarding this is the use of the line almost mockingly of "And he lived happily ever after, till the end of his days." This far too oft used line ends the Hobbit and is mentioned several times in the trilogy yet in the end, of what I guess could be considered the final book, Return of the King, that isn't the case and instead Tolkien carries us back to the begining with Sam taking a deep breath and saying "Well I'm back". Harkining to one of Bilbo's titles There and Back again.
The same holde true for the Numenoreans, here the Valar have raised this perfect island which is enriched by gifts from the Eldar and they give it to the Edain for their "Faithfulness and Valor" during the Wars of Beleriand. You would think at this point "And they lived happily ever after till the end of their days" might be the fitting ending, but no, Tolkien gives us more. We see the beginings of promise and the rise to wisdom and we think to ourselves, "How great, How wonderful, finally an end to the strife". But it is only another beginning because as Gimli and Legolas had pointed out from the point of view of the elder races Elves and Dwarfs, the second comers "Man" often show promise but in the end fall short of that promise.
I think if Tolkien had one specific theme in mind throughout his Tales and notes it was to be wary of pride. It seems every time pride becomes an issue in his Tales negativity and Evil follow in the wake.
For myself I saw the capture and imprisonment of Sauron on Numenor as a lesser imitation of the Valar's capture of Melkor and his imprisonment in Aman. No good could come of it and it was in both cases foolish pride, that the captors thought they good change the captive and make use of his powers and advice. There was no suprise from my side of the fence when in both cases these actions caused such strife and loses.
This is perhaps our place in the world as well, as we were given everything we needed to live here on our own Arda, yet satisfaction seems never to be had and pride runs rampent on the streets as we consume our resources in our shiny, vain automobiles.
Sorry couldn't resist. Great thread!
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
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Message 10 of 11 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 6/29/2002 7:24 AM
Funny you should mention that excessive pride could be the greatest mistake of men.
I found this link which relates this idea to the writings of C. S. Lewis.
cslewis.drzeus.net/papers/7sins.html
Tolkien is similar in his themes, doubtlessly though he deals with them in a more complex way.
~Gilwen~
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Message 11 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 6/29/2002 8:56 AM
That was a fun paper, Hantale (thanks) Gilwen. I liked the idea of the seven deadly sins being used to compare his tales. And the comic way Lewis's handles prides punishment was great, I missed that before. I wonder how many examples we might find in Tolkien's work of the same thing?
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Reply
Message 1 of 11 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 3/29/2002 12:31 PM
I'm devastated.
I don't quite know why, but after reading Akallebeth my heart sunk into an abyss of despair. As far as I can tell, it's wallowing there still.
How could the descendants of Elros turn away from Manwe?? How could they become so base as to become an ally of the Dark Lord Sauron??? For what reason did this happen?
I personally would have preferred a more, well, noble downfall. Like Feanor. His was a crime of passion. He swore oaths and such. He was fiesty.
Akallebeth tarnishes my view of the Numenorians. Grrrrrrrr......
~ Gilwen ~
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 11 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/29/2002 4:16 PM
> Akallebeth tarnishes my view of the Numenorians. Grrrrrrrr......
Yes, they're just so HUMAN, aren't they. Makes you want to be an elf...
Tolkien fought in the War to End All Wars - and many of his peers died in it. Then he lived to see another, bloodier war fought over the very same territory. He knew, from personal experience, that even victorious endings are not always happy, nor are they truly endings.
But then, even the most depressing defeats are not permanent, either.
Go back and re-read what Legolas and Gimli say to each other as they enter Minas Tirith for the first time (somewhere in ROTK - don't have my books with me).
Then take a long bath, and wallow in the despair. I know the feeling.
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 11 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 3/29/2002 8:58 PM
Megn1: Are you refering to the beginning of Chapter IX--The Last Debate in ROTK? Legolas and Gimli enter Minas Tirith looking for Merry and Pippin who are both in the Houses of Healing. Gimli makes the comment about good stone-work and Legolas says there aren't enough gardens. They both make promises to help Aragorn out once he "comes into his own" by sending help to rebuild and plant.
Stormrider
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 11 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/29/2002 9:09 PM
Yes, keep reading.
Gimli says "Doubtless the good stone-wrok is the older and was wrought in the first building. It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise."
"Yet seldom do they fail of their seed," said Legolas. "And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli."
They are speaking of Gondor, but it applies to Numenor as well.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 11 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/30/2002 1:27 AM
Tolkien frequently delivers a good number of shocks to his first time readers as they progress from the Hobbit, through the LoTR, trilogy and finally enter the "deeper" histories of the Silmarillion. I read the trilogy before I read the Hobbit so I did not have any expectations of the behaviours likely to come from Elves, Hobbits, or Wizards. In fact I was quite prepared to see the "eaves-dropping" Sam as a villain in Sauron's pay, and I expected Gandalf to commit, at any time, some sort of treachery to gain the One Ring for himself. Of course, by the end of my first traverse through the trilogy, it then seemed so obvious that Gandalf was good, and Sam was true. After dropping back in time to read the Hobbit I found the basic Tolkien scheme of "virtues" clearly laid out as in a child's fairy tale: Good = Wizards, Hobbits, Elves, and Eagles; Mainly Good but Self Centered = Dwarves, Beorings and Men; Bad = Dragons, Wargs, Gobblins, Gollums, Spiders, and Necromancers. On second and subsequent reads I began to view the LoTR as just a more elaborate and "adult" version of this Hobbit scheme of good and bad, here the readers were introduced to a more realistic pattern of good, bad, and "conflicted." In LoTR Wizards could indeed become traitors, Men in general came in a full spectrum from the noble to the debased, and even Hobbits could be "evil," petty-minded, grasping and cruel (Ted Sandyman, Lotho "The Pimple," Lobelia and their followers). But at least Sauron remained "evil," as did Orcs and Wolves, and Spiders, and Numenoreans remained noble, high and uncorrupted though they ranged in turn from types like Aragorn and Faramir, to Denethor and Boromir. And then I read the appendices in the RoTK, and found some very suspicious entries (Numenoreans could be Nazgul! The people of Gondor engaged in bloody civil wars: Kinstrife of 1432; Osgiliath, great capital of Gondor with its Dome of Stars was destroyed by its own people...) -- later I learned that these were digests from the Silmarillion, and there were hints in RoTK that even more "disturbing" facts of an "intensly realistic" sort were yet to be uncovered.
When the Silmarillion was at long last, finally published I was already prepared by the appendices of RoTKfor the "Akalabeth's" tale of woe, of Numenorean treacheries, revolts, and their eventual, cataclysmic downfall. I assumed that Tolkien had created a line of natural progression in his writing that led from the simplistic charcter portrayal of the Hobbit to a more realistic interpretation in the trilogy, and finally a very complex situation of character motivations in the Silmarillion. More surprizes: although published last, the Silmarillion had actually been written first! There was no neat progression towards increasing reality and complexity... Additionally, the full tale of the Numenorean fall was even more bitter and "realistic" than I had imagined it would be, and even though somewhat prepared for a grim story, the actual book still had the power to stun and shock upon first reading. It was presented in a very raw, annalistic fashion, a straight-forward history of the same egotistic drives, the same pettiness, the same politics, in-fighting, treacheries, and back-stabbing that one would find in a good account of the last days of the Roman Empire, or the bloody, filthiness and stupidity of World War One...
As Megn1 suggests: "Yes, there just so HUMAN, aren't they. Makes you want to be an elf..."
I started trying to understand things from the Numenorean point of view, the Kingsmen. Living on a sheltered island in the very near vicinity of a heavenly paradise, no diseases, no deformities or disabilities how wonderful this "gift land" and "gift life" must have been! How could they falter? How could they reject the Powers that had made this wonderful existence possible? How could they throw it all away? Well, maybe because there was a catch in the whole affair, they were indeed Human. They were given long lives of wonder and potential joy, every act and thought enriched with the gifts of the Valar and the Eldar - but after a while, even a "near paradise" life must have become an accepted routine, a matter to be taken for granted - that is the Human way. Regardless of how good things are, we always ask for better - part of the human condition - and for the Numenoreans the only thing really denied them, the only element of perfection they could not attain was immortality. Yet they lived directly in the shadow of the Undying Lands where a similar grand existence could be carried on forever - what a torment that must have been. So close to total perfection, yet the door was always shut against them, the Ban of the Valar and the "Doom of Men" would seem very confining things under such conditions, maddening... and I think at last many of the Numenoreans simply went stark-raving mad, mad with envy of the immortality of the Elves, mad from living where Men should not be allowed to live, right on the doorstep of paradise... No wonder the "Faithful" of Ellendil could fit, in those last days, into merely Seven ships for their flight back to the havens of Middle Earth -- only a handful of humans could maintain their sanity that close to the forbidden realms of what must have seemed to be the absolute paradise. Sauron merely exploited this sickly-mindedness of the Numenoreans, their lust for life-everlasting, turning it to his advantage, and in a sense securing in the destruction of Numenor another Human Fall, another Eden lost?
It seems so inevitable to me that Numenor MUST be drowned, and dwelling near to paradise be ended - imperfect humans were never meant to live that close to perfection!
Having sort of "mystically" settled that matter to my satisfaction long ago - and I hope everyone else comes up with their own understanding of this material - I then read further in the Silmarillion. More trouble... the Elves do not come off all that nobly either! Backstabbers, betrayers, rapists, murderers and thieves! Feanor and his Sons look like very badly disturbed, conflicted, juvenile deliquents - I would not be surprized to find that Feanor's skilled hands invented not only swords, palantiri, and silmarils but also the switch-blade knife. The Kinslaying, where Feanor stole the Teleri Ships, looks very close to the Kinstrife episodes of the people of Gondor; and then there is that nasty business of the Elves hunting and slaughtering the "Petty Dwarves" like animals; and the implied deadly conflicts between the first of the Atani and the Wood Elves which puts even the Elves of the Silmarillion into a new light as a most realistic and politically motivated folk - no wonder the Orcs are related to them...
"Akallebeth tarnishes my view of the Numenorians." LOL - Gilwen, I think Tolkien would get a chuckle out of our shocks, it is precisely this aspect of "realism" in his works that keeps them from being simple fantasy/ fairy tales. Old JRRT was out to give us REAL HISTORY, blood, guts, and betrayal all over Arda! Yes, quite a shock when one considers the characterizations usually first read in the Hobbit!
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 11 in Discussion
From: Elanor
Sent: 4/1/2002 9:16 AM
For some reason I had it in my head that we were starting Sil at the start of April and not march. Fortunatley I've read it before so I can pick up where you all are.
Anyway...Like most I was sad that the elves I equated with perfection and wisdom had such a rocky and rebelious start. But after a moment of thought I realized where their wisdom came from. Their immortality gave them lots of time to learn from lives mistakes, so by the end of the 3rd age, they appeared very wise to the short-lived. That's my 2 cents...
abbie
go not to the elves for advice, for they will answer both yeah and neah (paraphrased)
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN Nickname6_strings_n_gazoline
Sent: 6/4/2002 6:22 PM
I fell exactely like you I thought the Numenoriens where the kings of kings and not cryptic devil worshipers I thought they would be more like Aragorn/Strider . But they are human and it is just part of the greif of middle-earth .
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 11 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/15/2002 10:39 PM
I'm posting here to bring this thread back to the top.
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 6/23/2002 2:19 AM
"Realism" yes Karo6 I think that would be the head of the proverbial nail that keeps me re-reading this series over and over. One aspect that harkens to my mind regarding this is the use of the line almost mockingly of "And he lived happily ever after, till the end of his days." This far too oft used line ends the Hobbit and is mentioned several times in the trilogy yet in the end, of what I guess could be considered the final book, Return of the King, that isn't the case and instead Tolkien carries us back to the begining with Sam taking a deep breath and saying "Well I'm back". Harkining to one of Bilbo's titles There and Back again.
The same holde true for the Numenoreans, here the Valar have raised this perfect island which is enriched by gifts from the Eldar and they give it to the Edain for their "Faithfulness and Valor" during the Wars of Beleriand. You would think at this point "And they lived happily ever after till the end of their days" might be the fitting ending, but no, Tolkien gives us more. We see the beginings of promise and the rise to wisdom and we think to ourselves, "How great, How wonderful, finally an end to the strife". But it is only another beginning because as Gimli and Legolas had pointed out from the point of view of the elder races Elves and Dwarfs, the second comers "Man" often show promise but in the end fall short of that promise.
I think if Tolkien had one specific theme in mind throughout his Tales and notes it was to be wary of pride. It seems every time pride becomes an issue in his Tales negativity and Evil follow in the wake.
For myself I saw the capture and imprisonment of Sauron on Numenor as a lesser imitation of the Valar's capture of Melkor and his imprisonment in Aman. No good could come of it and it was in both cases foolish pride, that the captors thought they good change the captive and make use of his powers and advice. There was no suprise from my side of the fence when in both cases these actions caused such strife and loses.
This is perhaps our place in the world as well, as we were given everything we needed to live here on our own Arda, yet satisfaction seems never to be had and pride runs rampent on the streets as we consume our resources in our shiny, vain automobiles.
Sorry couldn't resist. Great thread!
Namarie Eldameldor,
Iarwain
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 11 in Discussion
From: CrazierGilwen
Sent: 6/29/2002 7:24 AM
Funny you should mention that excessive pride could be the greatest mistake of men.
I found this link which relates this idea to the writings of C. S. Lewis.
cslewis.drzeus.net/papers/7sins.html
Tolkien is similar in his themes, doubtlessly though he deals with them in a more complex way.
~Gilwen~
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 11 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 6/29/2002 8:56 AM
That was a fun paper, Hantale (thanks) Gilwen. I liked the idea of the seven deadly sins being used to compare his tales. And the comic way Lewis's handles prides punishment was great, I missed that before. I wonder how many examples we might find in Tolkien's work of the same thing?
Namárië,
Iarwain