Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 18:26:25 GMT -6
Week Six – Love Stories
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Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/18/2002 7:08 PM
As I said elsewhere, the story of Luthien and Beren seemed to be Tolkien’s favorite story. Certainly it was the story he connected with most personally, since he had “Beren” carved on his tombstone, and “Luthien” carved on his wife’s.
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It is a love story. What makes for a good love story? What are the elements of a good love story that you see in this tale? In your opinion, what is the greatest love story of all time?
<o:p></o:p>
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Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/26/2002 7:44 PM
A love story is good when the protagonists' face great obstacles but their love is so deep that they are willing to make sacrifices for each other. They remain true, and their love prevails, and they are not bitter about the difficulties they had to overcome.
Beren and Luthien fit this model because they overcame not only her father's opposition but had to fight Melkor to receive permission to marry. They managed to do this together and successfully and their love endured through hardship and time.
When I tried to think of the greatest love story of all time, the story of Romeo and Juliet popped into my mind but it falls short because their love does not prevail, instead they both die unnecessarily. I remember feeling frustrated when reading the ending of Romeo and Juliet. It is interesting to contrast this story to Beren and Luthien. Luthien gave up eternal life to be with Beren, and Beren risked his life to be with Luthien, and they were together, and are still together somewhere, I presume. Romeo and Juliet each ended their lives because they thought they couldn't be together and couldn't live without each other.
I will have to keep thinking about the greatest love story of all time. . .
In your opinion, what is the greatest love story of all time?
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 5:48 PM
I'm not good at love stories, but I have a couple of questions.
On page 217 (paperback), "Of Beren and Luthien" (the page after
the poem that starts), "Farewell sweet earth," Huan tells Beren:
"From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by
her love she is now subject to it." So that sounds like Luthien was
made mortal by her love for Beren. But at the very end of the
chapter (page 227-8 ppb), Luthien has to make a choice between
remaining immortal and losing Beren, or staying with Beren and
becoming mortal. She *chooses* mortality.
Is this a contradiction, or am I missing something?
Also, where in Iluvatar's name does Luthien get all this power?!
She's more powerful than any Vala, it seems! Even Beren, a Man,
has powers. Did it come from their love for each other? And why
didn't they flat-out destroy Angbond and the Orcs? It wouldn't stop
Morgoth, but it'd sure slow him down some.
Diana
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/4/2002 2:28 AM
Sorry if this is a repeat; it's not coming through on my end.
On page 217 (paperback), "Of Beren and Luthien" (the page after
the poem that starts), "Farewell sweet earth," Huan tells Beren:
"From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by
her love she is now subject to it." So that sounds like Luthien was
made mortal by her love for Beren. But at the very end of the
chapter (page 227-8 ppb), Luthien has to make a choice between
remaining immortal and losing Beren, or staying with Beren and
becoming mortal. She *chooses* mortality.
Is this a contradiction, or am I missing something?
Also, where in Iluvatar's name does Luthien get all this power?!
She's more powerful than any Vala, it seems! Even Beren, a Man,
has powers. Did it come from their love for each other? And why
didn't they flat-out destroy Angbond and the Orcs? It wouldn't stop
Morgoth, but it'd sure slow him down some.
Diana
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 6/4/2002 11:22 AM
Amaranth,
Good Questions!
I think your answer can be found in the nature of Elvish immortality. Remember, although immortal, the Elves could become so grievous that their spirits would depart from their bodies. This is what happened to Luthien. Her first death was not a choice but the result of her sorrow.
As far as her Vala-like power, we have to read the Silmarillion as a legend/myth. The favorite characters always have immeasurable power. I agree that Luthien's ability to cast down Sauron's abode seemed a bit far-fetched, but hey ... Elrond can make rivers drown Nazgul!
Algamesh
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/5/2002 5:30 AM
Amaranth,
I agree with you on the powers of Luthien. The part I have the hardest time with is her turning into a bat. I just don't see how that happened.
Of course, Algamesh is right that this is part of the mythic quality of the story. Luthien and Beren feels more "mythic" to me than most of Tolkien's writing (almost all of which is myth). By this I mean that he seems less focused on making it all hang together, and more focused on developing these mythic characters and their relationship. So there are gaping holes (in my opinion) in their story. On the whole, I prefer the places where Tolkien is more intentional about creating an internally consistent world.
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 7/10/2002 8:18 PM
Prof. Tolkien mentioned one element of a great story in a letter to his son Michael in March 1941 (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, No. 43):
"[T]he greatest of these tales do not tell of the happy marriage of such great lovers, but of their tragic separation; as if even in this sphere the truly great and splendid in this fallen world is more nearly achieved by 'failure' and suffering."
(I have recently acquired a copy of this book and am enjoying it thoroughly.)
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 7/11/2002 8:31 PM
Yes, I am enjoying "Letters" also - I highly recommend it (in case anyone hasn't figured that out). The letter to Michael about love is profound and full of wisdom. Tolkien had to struggle on his own journey of love, and it clearly gave him insight. He valued and cherished Edith all their days together.
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 7/14/2002 3:04 PM
Tolkien's love for his wife is one that survived a tragic separation and other obstacles. Maybe that is one reason he cherished her so dearly. I don't know many lovers who will wait for each other during years of being allowed no communication with each other. Theirs is a great love story, itself!
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Eleandune
Sent: 7/19/2002 2:01 PM
I'm noticing a lot of similarities between Tolkien's own love story with his wife and the love stories he writes - for example, Luthien and Beren encountered parental opposition as Tolkien did, and Aragorn and Arwen endured years of separation like Tolkien and his wife. It seems pretty clear (especially with Luthien and Beren), that he was using his own life as inspiration for his stories. Maybe that's what makes the love stories so different from the rest of the saga - they were based in personal experience instead of imagination.
The quote from "Letters" was interesting and mostly true - I mean, conflict and trouble make a more exciting story than a simple happy marriage. Even so, I think that happy endings can be part of a "great tale" as well. Not every love story has to end tragically (like Romeo and Juliet) to be great, does it?
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 7/19/2002 8:33 PM
Not to burst bubbles, but in Carpenter's biography, it was brought to light that in later years, JRR and Edith had seperate bedrooms, mostly owing to the fact that his work was still taking up much of his attention, and Edith was not entirely happy living the academic area and circles that JRR prefered. This is the curse that reading bio's can cause. It differs from one's concept of what real life was for the subject.
I always thought that Beren and Luthien was the model of JRR and Edith, but I think this was mostly a fantasy in JRR's mind. Or maybe a wish. In reality they had the same marital problems that most of us are subject to. But they always remained publicaly supportive of each other to the end. The English way?? Hmmmm....
A tiro nin, Fanuilos!
Glor
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 7/20/2002 8:04 PM
Glor wrote:
I always thought that Beren and Luthien was the model of JRR and Edith, but I think this was mostly a fantasy in JRR's mind. Or maybe a wish.
Well, let's be honest. Beren and Luthien, and Aragorn and Arwen, are tales told almost entirely from the male perspective. The women are almost fantasies - high and beautiful and worshipped by their male lovers. They are won over to the lives of the male, giving up their own lives (literally). While I love the tales, I have never felt a desire to be either Luthien or Arwen. That just wouldn't be my idea of a great relationship. Perhaps Edith felt the same...
Of course, Tolkien could write from the female perspective - Eowyn is proof.
_____________________________________________
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Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 7/21/2002 12:17 AM
I agree 100% Meg. You are right. I am wondering just how much Edith may have disliked JRR's female model. While always being supportive of JRR's work in public, from what I have read in Carpenter's book, she seems the type of woman who would not stand for a life modeled after one of his characters. She was very practrical and knew when to put her foot down. At one point during JRR's military career, she pretty much said "If you think I am going to uproot the family and follow you all over the place, all the time, you are mistaken!".
Good for Edith! Still I do not doubt they loved each other after a fashion. English society was and IS still very strange.
Glor
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/18/2002 7:08 PM
As I said elsewhere, the story of Luthien and Beren seemed to be Tolkien’s favorite story. Certainly it was the story he connected with most personally, since he had “Beren” carved on his tombstone, and “Luthien” carved on his wife’s.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
It is a love story. What makes for a good love story? What are the elements of a good love story that you see in this tale? In your opinion, what is the greatest love story of all time?
<o:p></o:p>
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/26/2002 7:44 PM
A love story is good when the protagonists' face great obstacles but their love is so deep that they are willing to make sacrifices for each other. They remain true, and their love prevails, and they are not bitter about the difficulties they had to overcome.
Beren and Luthien fit this model because they overcame not only her father's opposition but had to fight Melkor to receive permission to marry. They managed to do this together and successfully and their love endured through hardship and time.
When I tried to think of the greatest love story of all time, the story of Romeo and Juliet popped into my mind but it falls short because their love does not prevail, instead they both die unnecessarily. I remember feeling frustrated when reading the ending of Romeo and Juliet. It is interesting to contrast this story to Beren and Luthien. Luthien gave up eternal life to be with Beren, and Beren risked his life to be with Luthien, and they were together, and are still together somewhere, I presume. Romeo and Juliet each ended their lives because they thought they couldn't be together and couldn't live without each other.
I will have to keep thinking about the greatest love story of all time. . .
In your opinion, what is the greatest love story of all time?
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/3/2002 5:48 PM
I'm not good at love stories, but I have a couple of questions.
On page 217 (paperback), "Of Beren and Luthien" (the page after
the poem that starts), "Farewell sweet earth," Huan tells Beren:
"From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by
her love she is now subject to it." So that sounds like Luthien was
made mortal by her love for Beren. But at the very end of the
chapter (page 227-8 ppb), Luthien has to make a choice between
remaining immortal and losing Beren, or staying with Beren and
becoming mortal. She *chooses* mortality.
Is this a contradiction, or am I missing something?
Also, where in Iluvatar's name does Luthien get all this power?!
She's more powerful than any Vala, it seems! Even Beren, a Man,
has powers. Did it come from their love for each other? And why
didn't they flat-out destroy Angbond and the Orcs? It wouldn't stop
Morgoth, but it'd sure slow him down some.
Diana
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 6/4/2002 2:28 AM
Sorry if this is a repeat; it's not coming through on my end.
On page 217 (paperback), "Of Beren and Luthien" (the page after
the poem that starts), "Farewell sweet earth," Huan tells Beren:
"From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by
her love she is now subject to it." So that sounds like Luthien was
made mortal by her love for Beren. But at the very end of the
chapter (page 227-8 ppb), Luthien has to make a choice between
remaining immortal and losing Beren, or staying with Beren and
becoming mortal. She *chooses* mortality.
Is this a contradiction, or am I missing something?
Also, where in Iluvatar's name does Luthien get all this power?!
She's more powerful than any Vala, it seems! Even Beren, a Man,
has powers. Did it come from their love for each other? And why
didn't they flat-out destroy Angbond and the Orcs? It wouldn't stop
Morgoth, but it'd sure slow him down some.
Diana
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 6/4/2002 11:22 AM
Amaranth,
Good Questions!
I think your answer can be found in the nature of Elvish immortality. Remember, although immortal, the Elves could become so grievous that their spirits would depart from their bodies. This is what happened to Luthien. Her first death was not a choice but the result of her sorrow.
As far as her Vala-like power, we have to read the Silmarillion as a legend/myth. The favorite characters always have immeasurable power. I agree that Luthien's ability to cast down Sauron's abode seemed a bit far-fetched, but hey ... Elrond can make rivers drown Nazgul!
Algamesh
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 6/5/2002 5:30 AM
Amaranth,
I agree with you on the powers of Luthien. The part I have the hardest time with is her turning into a bat. I just don't see how that happened.
Of course, Algamesh is right that this is part of the mythic quality of the story. Luthien and Beren feels more "mythic" to me than most of Tolkien's writing (almost all of which is myth). By this I mean that he seems less focused on making it all hang together, and more focused on developing these mythic characters and their relationship. So there are gaping holes (in my opinion) in their story. On the whole, I prefer the places where Tolkien is more intentional about creating an internally consistent world.
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 7/10/2002 8:18 PM
Prof. Tolkien mentioned one element of a great story in a letter to his son Michael in March 1941 (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, No. 43):
"[T]he greatest of these tales do not tell of the happy marriage of such great lovers, but of their tragic separation; as if even in this sphere the truly great and splendid in this fallen world is more nearly achieved by 'failure' and suffering."
(I have recently acquired a copy of this book and am enjoying it thoroughly.)
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 7/11/2002 8:31 PM
Yes, I am enjoying "Letters" also - I highly recommend it (in case anyone hasn't figured that out). The letter to Michael about love is profound and full of wisdom. Tolkien had to struggle on his own journey of love, and it clearly gave him insight. He valued and cherished Edith all their days together.
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 7/14/2002 3:04 PM
Tolkien's love for his wife is one that survived a tragic separation and other obstacles. Maybe that is one reason he cherished her so dearly. I don't know many lovers who will wait for each other during years of being allowed no communication with each other. Theirs is a great love story, itself!
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Eleandune
Sent: 7/19/2002 2:01 PM
I'm noticing a lot of similarities between Tolkien's own love story with his wife and the love stories he writes - for example, Luthien and Beren encountered parental opposition as Tolkien did, and Aragorn and Arwen endured years of separation like Tolkien and his wife. It seems pretty clear (especially with Luthien and Beren), that he was using his own life as inspiration for his stories. Maybe that's what makes the love stories so different from the rest of the saga - they were based in personal experience instead of imagination.
The quote from "Letters" was interesting and mostly true - I mean, conflict and trouble make a more exciting story than a simple happy marriage. Even so, I think that happy endings can be part of a "great tale" as well. Not every love story has to end tragically (like Romeo and Juliet) to be great, does it?
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 7/19/2002 8:33 PM
Not to burst bubbles, but in Carpenter's biography, it was brought to light that in later years, JRR and Edith had seperate bedrooms, mostly owing to the fact that his work was still taking up much of his attention, and Edith was not entirely happy living the academic area and circles that JRR prefered. This is the curse that reading bio's can cause. It differs from one's concept of what real life was for the subject.
I always thought that Beren and Luthien was the model of JRR and Edith, but I think this was mostly a fantasy in JRR's mind. Or maybe a wish. In reality they had the same marital problems that most of us are subject to. But they always remained publicaly supportive of each other to the end. The English way?? Hmmmm....
A tiro nin, Fanuilos!
Glor
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 7/20/2002 8:04 PM
Glor wrote:
I always thought that Beren and Luthien was the model of JRR and Edith, but I think this was mostly a fantasy in JRR's mind. Or maybe a wish.
Well, let's be honest. Beren and Luthien, and Aragorn and Arwen, are tales told almost entirely from the male perspective. The women are almost fantasies - high and beautiful and worshipped by their male lovers. They are won over to the lives of the male, giving up their own lives (literally). While I love the tales, I have never felt a desire to be either Luthien or Arwen. That just wouldn't be my idea of a great relationship. Perhaps Edith felt the same...
Of course, Tolkien could write from the female perspective - Eowyn is proof.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 7/21/2002 12:17 AM
I agree 100% Meg. You are right. I am wondering just how much Edith may have disliked JRR's female model. While always being supportive of JRR's work in public, from what I have read in Carpenter's book, she seems the type of woman who would not stand for a life modeled after one of his characters. She was very practrical and knew when to put her foot down. At one point during JRR's military career, she pretty much said "If you think I am going to uproot the family and follow you all over the place, all the time, you are mistaken!".
Good for Edith! Still I do not doubt they loved each other after a fashion. English society was and IS still very strange.
Glor