Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2009 18:40:14 GMT -6
Week five - reading assignment
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Message 1 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/10/2002 8:55 PM
Only two chapters this week: chapters 17 & 18 of Quenta Silmarillion.
Men arrive in Beleriand in chapter 17, bringing lots more names, kindred, and family trees to remember. But men are short lived, and generations pass rapidly, so most of them you can ignore. What matters are the family alliances formed. I’ll give away a bit of what is coming by saying that the three humans who matter the most are Beren, Tuor, and Turin. Look at the family trees in the back of the book, and note where these three fit in.
Very significant is the oath at Finrod swears to Beren’s father (Barahir) on the third page of chapter 18. It is an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin. This oath is sealed with a ring – the Ring of Barahir. Extra credit to anyone who remembers where we will see this ring, more than two ages in the future. (Those who know this stuff better than their own family history, let a first-timer have a shot at this first.)
As for Tuor and Turin, note that their fathers, Huor and Hurin, spend time in Gondolin with Turgon, and return, sworn to secrecy. This, also, will be significant.
The long years of endless battle are upon us. But with them come the most wonderful stories in this book. Get excited: we’ve now finally got all the pieces on the board, all the back story told, every personality described and every prophesy uttered. It’s time for the story to really begin. Most of the rest of the Quenta Silmarillion is tales of these people we have come to know. And next week’s reading begins with the best of them all!
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Message 2 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/10/2002 8:58 PM
The many battles of the War of Beleriand get confusing. To help sort them out, I offer the following table:
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Message 3 of 12 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 5/11/2002 2:54 PM
This is an excellent chart, Megn. Thanks a bunch!
Soleil
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Message 4 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/18/2002 7:05 PM
I'm still looking for someone to answer the extra credit question:
The question concerns the Ring of Barahir, given by Felagund to Barahir as a token of friendship, and used by Beren to remind Felagund of his oath. Where does it show up again, in the time of LOTR?
I'm hoping the answer will come from a first-time reader of Sil.
Hint: If you did the extra assigned reading (for week six), you saw it...
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Message 5 of 12 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 5/20/2002 8:19 AM
That's a wonderful chart and will be quite useful. Thanks a lot!!
Zauber
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Message 6 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/29/2002 4:04 PM
Megn1,
Your question concerning Barahir's ring was not unnoticed! It just took me some time. First, I read how Felagund gave the ring to Barahir when Barahir, at great loss to himself, rescued Felagund in the Fen of Serech. Barahir passed the ring on to his son, Beren, and when Thingol confronted Beren about his love for Luthien and called him ugly names, Beren showed Thingol the ring as a token of his honor.
The ring became an heirloom of the house of Isuldur, and, as we all know, Aragorn was Isuldur's heir. Elrond gave Aragorn the ring along with the broken pieces of Narsil when Aragorn became a man. I read about this in Appendix A, but I couldn't remember a reference in the actual text of The Lord of the Rings. Is there one?
You will be pleased to know that I am a first time reader.
~Sparrow
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Message 7 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/29/2002 8:32 PM
VERY IMPRESSIVE!!
A wonderful piece of detective work.
When I posed the question, I thought there was a reference to the ring of Barahir in the text of LOTR, and therefore it would be in the index - not a very difficult challenge. Then I went looking for it, and discovered what you did: the ring is only mentioned in the appendix. I left the challenge anyway, wanting to see who would do the work to find it.
So congratulations SPARROW! You get extra credit, and go to the head of the class...
I have heard that the Ring of Barahir makes an appearance in the movie - given by Aragorn to Arwen. I could be wrong. I've not seen the movie (personal choice - I don't want to), and now that I ask my husband about it, he says he doesn't remember that happening. But somewhere in the back of my mind I remember someone mentioning it...
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Message 8 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/30/2002 5:37 AM
Megn, Thanks for your congratulations. I am proud to be so honored. I did use the indeces in the LotR and Sil to help me find the answer. It was a good learning experience.
Did Aragorn give Arwen the ring? Now I have an excuse to see the movie again. I remember Arwen giving Aragorn her pendant. I do not remember Aragorn giving her a ring. But I could have missed it. I plan to preorder the DVD so I can have it as soon as it comes out on August 8. Meanwhile, I will be looking for a dollar theatre. (I saw the movie and still like it even after having read the book. Of course, I like the book too. I consider them separate entities. like tangerines and oranges, sort of - they are different and I like them both.)
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Message 9 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 9/2/2002 9:04 PM
Megn,
I just watched FotR again and I can now confirm Barahir's does appear in the movie, more than once. Most notably, it is on Aragorn's ring when he approaches Frodo after Boromir has tried to take the One Ring. At least in FotR, Aragorn does not give the ring to Arwen.
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Recommend Message 10 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1 Sent: 9/3/2002 8:51 AM
Thanks, small brown feathered one, for your research, and for posting the answer here. That settles some confusion for me...
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Message 11 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 9/4/2002 6:25 PM
Apparently I was tired when I posted that last message.
Here are the errata:
Barahir's does = Barahir's ring does
it is on Aragorn's ring = it is on Aragorn's finger
______________________________________________________
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Message 12 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 9/4/2002 8:55 PM
Sparrow,
Evidently I was half asleep when I read your post, because I understood it!
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/10/2002 8:55 PM
Only two chapters this week: chapters 17 & 18 of Quenta Silmarillion.
Men arrive in Beleriand in chapter 17, bringing lots more names, kindred, and family trees to remember. But men are short lived, and generations pass rapidly, so most of them you can ignore. What matters are the family alliances formed. I’ll give away a bit of what is coming by saying that the three humans who matter the most are Beren, Tuor, and Turin. Look at the family trees in the back of the book, and note where these three fit in.
Very significant is the oath at Finrod swears to Beren’s father (Barahir) on the third page of chapter 18. It is an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin. This oath is sealed with a ring – the Ring of Barahir. Extra credit to anyone who remembers where we will see this ring, more than two ages in the future. (Those who know this stuff better than their own family history, let a first-timer have a shot at this first.)
As for Tuor and Turin, note that their fathers, Huor and Hurin, spend time in Gondolin with Turgon, and return, sworn to secrecy. This, also, will be significant.
The long years of endless battle are upon us. But with them come the most wonderful stories in this book. Get excited: we’ve now finally got all the pieces on the board, all the back story told, every personality described and every prophesy uttered. It’s time for the story to really begin. Most of the rest of the Quenta Silmarillion is tales of these people we have come to know. And next week’s reading begins with the best of them all!
_____________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/10/2002 8:58 PM
The many battles of the War of Beleriand get confusing. To help sort them out, I offer the following table:
| # | name | when | description | outcome |
| 1 | (no name given) | After Morgoth returned from Valinor, but before the Noldor had arrived. | Morgoth sent a sudden onslaught of orcs. Cirdan was cut off, and Thingol surrounded. Denethor, of the Green Elves, came to Thingol's rescue, but was killed. Morgoth's forces destroyed. | Doriath fenced. The Green Elves decide that they will not fight in the battles anymore, but withdraw into themselves. |
| 2 | Dagor-nuin-Giliath (Battle Under the Stars) | AfterFeanor reached Middle Earth, before the moon had risen and before Fingolfin had completed the crossing of the Helcaraxe. | Morgoth assailed Feanor, before the newly arrived Noldor had a chance to prepare any defenses. Nevertheless, Morgoth's forces were utterly defeated. Feanor, pursuing his fleeing enemies, was slain. | Morgoth offered a false surrender, and Maedros was taken captive. Kingship of the Noldor ultimately passes to Fingolfin. |
| 3 | DagorAglareb (The Glorious Battle) | After the Noldor have settled. (About 50 years after the rising of the sun.) | A sudden assault by Morgoth, who thought the Noldor were confused and wandering. His forces were completely destroyed. | The Noldor learned to be wary, and kept watch on Angband for more than 400 years. |
| 4 | Dagor Bragollach (Battle of Sudden Flame) | About 400 years after the Dagor Aglareb, 455 years after Fingolfin arrived in Middle Earth. | Great rivers of fire were sent out from Angband, burning all the land around it. Great forces, including the full grown dragon, Glaurung, fell upon the Noldor. Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to single combat, and was slain by him. | Siege of Angband broken, and battle never fully ceases again. Fingon becomes king of the Noldor. Finrod swears an oath of friendship to Barahir and his kin, because they rescued him. |
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 12 in Discussion
From: Soleil
Sent: 5/11/2002 2:54 PM
This is an excellent chart, Megn. Thanks a bunch!
Soleil
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/18/2002 7:05 PM
I'm still looking for someone to answer the extra credit question:
The question concerns the Ring of Barahir, given by Felagund to Barahir as a token of friendship, and used by Beren to remind Felagund of his oath. Where does it show up again, in the time of LOTR?
I'm hoping the answer will come from a first-time reader of Sil.
Hint: If you did the extra assigned reading (for week six), you saw it...
_________________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 12 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 5/20/2002 8:19 AM
That's a wonderful chart and will be quite useful. Thanks a lot!!
Zauber
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/29/2002 4:04 PM
Megn1,
Your question concerning Barahir's ring was not unnoticed! It just took me some time. First, I read how Felagund gave the ring to Barahir when Barahir, at great loss to himself, rescued Felagund in the Fen of Serech. Barahir passed the ring on to his son, Beren, and when Thingol confronted Beren about his love for Luthien and called him ugly names, Beren showed Thingol the ring as a token of his honor.
The ring became an heirloom of the house of Isuldur, and, as we all know, Aragorn was Isuldur's heir. Elrond gave Aragorn the ring along with the broken pieces of Narsil when Aragorn became a man. I read about this in Appendix A, but I couldn't remember a reference in the actual text of The Lord of the Rings. Is there one?
You will be pleased to know that I am a first time reader.
~Sparrow
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 5/29/2002 8:32 PM
VERY IMPRESSIVE!!
A wonderful piece of detective work.
When I posed the question, I thought there was a reference to the ring of Barahir in the text of LOTR, and therefore it would be in the index - not a very difficult challenge. Then I went looking for it, and discovered what you did: the ring is only mentioned in the appendix. I left the challenge anyway, wanting to see who would do the work to find it.
So congratulations SPARROW! You get extra credit, and go to the head of the class...
I have heard that the Ring of Barahir makes an appearance in the movie - given by Aragorn to Arwen. I could be wrong. I've not seen the movie (personal choice - I don't want to), and now that I ask my husband about it, he says he doesn't remember that happening. But somewhere in the back of my mind I remember someone mentioning it...
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 5/30/2002 5:37 AM
Megn, Thanks for your congratulations. I am proud to be so honored. I did use the indeces in the LotR and Sil to help me find the answer. It was a good learning experience.
Did Aragorn give Arwen the ring? Now I have an excuse to see the movie again. I remember Arwen giving Aragorn her pendant. I do not remember Aragorn giving her a ring. But I could have missed it. I plan to preorder the DVD so I can have it as soon as it comes out on August 8. Meanwhile, I will be looking for a dollar theatre. (I saw the movie and still like it even after having read the book. Of course, I like the book too. I consider them separate entities. like tangerines and oranges, sort of - they are different and I like them both.)
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 9/2/2002 9:04 PM
Megn,
I just watched FotR again and I can now confirm Barahir's does appear in the movie, more than once. Most notably, it is on Aragorn's ring when he approaches Frodo after Boromir has tried to take the One Ring. At least in FotR, Aragorn does not give the ring to Arwen.
Reply
Recommend Message 10 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1 Sent: 9/3/2002 8:51 AM
Thanks, small brown feathered one, for your research, and for posting the answer here. That settles some confusion for me...
__________________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 12 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 9/4/2002 6:25 PM
Apparently I was tired when I posted that last message.
Here are the errata:
Barahir's does = Barahir's ring does
it is on Aragorn's ring = it is on Aragorn's finger
______________________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 12 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 9/4/2002 8:55 PM
Sparrow,
Evidently I was half asleep when I read your post, because I understood it!